J45 Custom Shop no serial

[2penny_hangover]

Hi all, I'm ramping up buy a second hand J45. It is said to be a 2012 J45 50's custom shop with adi top and 50's specs (not unsimilar to todays J45 50's appointments). 

There are a few weird things:

- No oragne label in the soundhole. The seller says he bought the guitar from BTM music in Germany in 2014 and it didn't have a label to begin with.

- No serial number at the back of the headstock.

- The serial on the neck joint (inside) is covered with what looks like black goo. Seller says it is glue from a battery holder. The paper from Gibson with the guitar serial number says 10502005 and model name appears to be either RSSJIKNH1 or RSSJLKNH1 (it's hard to tell).

Here's all the photos I have of the guitar: https://www.flickr.com/photos/194054856@N06/with/53461346376/

What do you make of this? Should I be suspicous? Would you prefer a brand new J45 50's over one like this? I really like the finish and thicker neck on this one.

Thanks in advance!

[gearbasher]

I'm reading RSSJVSNH1.  Here's one for sale with no serial # or label.

 https://www.soundaffects.com/pre-owned-c101/2012-custom-shop-j-45-50s-reissue-acoustic-guitar-in-tobacco-sunburst-pre-owned-balance-p14923

But, being paranoid, I would still be wary.

Edited January 13 by gearbasher

[2penny_hangover]

Thanks gearbasher! This seems to be the very same model. This does make me relax a little.

[2penny_hangover]

What I really find weird is that the serial number you found is indicative of Southern Jumbo, not a J45. Gibson is known for mislabeling, but could it be the case here?

[2penny_hangover]

I asked the seller to peel the glue to expose the serial when he finds the time.

[Dave F]

I have a few Gibson Custom Shop guitars that only have the ink stamp on the neck block. This is very common when they do Historic variations. Being a 50's reissue, that was the standard marking method in the 50's. Looks legit to me.

[2penny_hangover]

23 minutes ago, Dave F said:

I have a few Gibson Custom Shop guitars that only have the ink stamp on the neck block. This is very common when they do Historic variations. Being a 50's reissue, that was the standard marking method in the 50's. Looks legit to me.

Any idea why the model number indicates southern jumbo?

[Dave F]

You're on your own there. Usually they can be deciphered but they often mis-label or make up new codes. Here's a list that was going around a few years ago. 

Gibson codes
Over they years I've collected examples of these Gibson model numbers and codes. So, for those interested, I'm listing what I have collected below, decoded correctly for the most part - if you find something that needs correcting, please let me know. In 2014 Gibson started adding the year of manufacture to some of the model numbers it creates. I have a similar collection of model numbers and codes for the electric division - so I posted that too. And remember - Gibson is consistently inconsistent, so changes WILL occur in usage and form.

Formula - T1 T2 T3 T4 T5 FF HW Hand - T1=TypeOfGuitar, T2=YearOfManufacture, T3=MoreTypeInfo, T4=MoreTypeInfo, T5=MoreTypeInfo, FF=Finish, HW=Hardware, Hand=1(right)or2(left). T2-T5 appear only if needed.

In 1985 Gibson stopped labeling seconds, but some model numbers still end in 1. I think Gibson reassigned the number for the hand - 1=RH, 2=LH, and in Acoustic division: 3=RH with pick up, and 4=LH with pick up.

ACOUSTIC DIVISION -

These codes and model numbers have been used by Montana since the start. It's broken up into four parts. Well, five parts now because in 2014 Gibson start sticking in two digits for the year of manufacture.

Type (appears at the beginning of the model number) -
RS Round Shoulder J-45 type
SS Square Shoulder Hummingbird type
SJ Super Jumbo type
J8 J-180 Jumbo type
LS L-series small body type
AS Acoustic electric
AC Acoustic (no pickup)

Year of manufacture (code added to some model numbers in 2014):
14 - 2014
15 - 2015
16 - 2016
17 - 2017
18 - 2018
19 - 2019

Finish - 
AT Antique Walnut (Natural finished top, Dark walnut stained back & sides)
AN Antique Natural (light toner added)
VS Vintage Sunburst ( Tobacco Burst) The new marketer has renamed this one the "sunset burst". Sigh....
CH Cherry (Dove red)
VCS Vintage Cherry Sunburst
HCS Heritage Cherry Sunburst (real hummingbird)
AE Antique Ebony (Black)Light toner for gold looking binding
EB Black (No Toner)(ebony)
TB Triburst

Hardware -
NH - Nickel Hardware
CH - Chrome Hardware
GH - Gold Hardware

Hand -
1=Right handed
2=Left handed
3=Right handed with pick up
4=Left handed with pick up

Recent Example: AC4518VSNH
AC45 - Acoustic (no pickup) J-45
18 - Manufactured 2018
VS - Vintage Sunburst
NH - Nickel hardware

ie: RS45TBNH1
RS45 - Round Shoulder J-45
TB - Tri-Burst finish
NH - Nickel hardware
1 - right handed

ie: RSSVVSNH1
RSSV - Round Shoulder Southern jumbo true Vintage
VS - Vintage Sunburst
NH - Nickel Hardware
1 - right handed

ie: SSHBHCSNH1
SSHB - Square shoulder Hummingbird
HCS - Heritage cherry sunburst
NH - Nickel Hardware
1 - right handed

ie: SSHCFMGH1
SSH - Square Shoulder Hummingbird
C - heritage Cherry burst
FM - Figured Mahogany
GH - Gold Hardware
1 - right handed

There are times when the number at the end of the hardware code is in reference to a lefty. This is usually a number 4. So a GH4 would be a gold hardware lefty.
If there is a number 3 at the end it is usually a guitar with a pick-up. Since they put pick-ups on most of their guitars now that number is no longer used.
A normally electric acoustic will be designated with a AS. The J-160E would be an AS16VSNH1.

From 1990 to 1995 all of the acoustic guitars were coded with a AC (acoustic) then the model number so a J-200 would be a AC20ANGH1
The acoustic electric guitars were noted- AS. AS16VSNH1 would have been a J-160-E.
1997 they made a change to different line designations. For example the J-200 was put into the "Historic Line". The code was HL20ANGH1.
1999 they made a big change in the price list and seperated the guitars into 5 lines they were:

J-200 Super Jumbo Line. They were designated SJ
J-45 Round Shoulder Line. They were designated RS
Hummingbird Square Shoulder Line. They were designated SS
J-180 Jumbo Line. They were J8
L-series Small Body Line They were LS

In 1993 they had a Starburst Studio and it was coded ASSFANGH1 Of course this guitar became the @ss fang.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ELECTRIC DIVISION -

Model number and code examples:

LPS6GTNH1 = LP(Les Paul) S(Standard) 6(6o's neck) GT(Gold Top) NH(Nickel Hardware) 1 (Not b stock or a 2nd - In 1985 Gibson stopped labeling seconds, but model numbers still end in 1.
I think Gibson reassigned the number for the hand - 1=RH, 2=LH, and in Acoustic division: 3=RH with pick up, and 4=LH with pick up.

LPSTWCCH1 = LP(Les Paul) ST(STudio) WC(Worn Cherry) CH(Chrome Hardware) 1(signifies that it is not b stock or a 2nd)

LPPCHBGH1 = LP(Les Paul) P(Premium or Plus - figured top) CHB(Cherry Heritage Burst, 2 or 3 letters for the finish) GH(Gold Hardware)

LPTDMSVCH1 = LP(Les Paul) TD(TraDitional) M(Mahogany top) S(Satin Vintage sunburst) CH(Chrome Hardware)

LPTDSZSHCH1 = LP(Les Paul) TD(TraDitional) S(1960) Z(Zebra coil pups) SH(Satin Honeyburst) CH(Chrome Hardware)

LPNSTDPTSCH1 = LP(Les Paul) N(Nashville) STD(STandarD) P(Plus) TS(Tea Burst) CH(Chrome Hardware)

LPNTDCBCH1 = LP(Les Paul) N(New) TD(TraDitional) CB (Chicago Blue) CH(Chrome Hardware)

*LPSCADBCH1 = LPS(Les Paul Standard) CA(Compund radius, Asymmetrical neck) DB(Desert Burst) CH(Chrome Hardware)

LPDCROCH1 - LP(Les Paul) DC(Double Cut) RO (ROot beer) CH(Chrome Hardware)

LPTLBNH1 - LP(Les Paul) T(Traditional) LB(Light Burst) NH(Nickel Hardware)

LPTP25FD9CF1 - LP(Les Paul) TP2(Traditional Pro 2) 5(50s neck) FD(Faded? Desert burst) 9(?) CF(Chrome Floyd rose)

LPSTDHSCHLH1 - LP(Les Paul) STD(STandarD) HS(Heritage cherry Sunburst) CH(Chrome Hardware) LH(Left Handed)

LPSFHBNH1 - Les Paul Standard Faded Honey Burst Nickel Hardware 1

LPJ-PBCH1 - Les Paul Junior Pelham Blue Chrome Hardware 1

~ For ES - "DT" Translation:

ESDSTBKCH1 - ES335 D (Dot) S (Satin) TB (TransBlack) CH (Chrome Hardware) 1 (right handed)

ESDP14CHNH1 - ES (Electric Spanish guitar series) D (Dot markers) P (Plain/Painted top) 14 (model year since 2014) CH (Cherry Heritage) NH (Nickel Hardware) 1 (right handed)

ESDP16GTNH1 - ES (Electric Spanish guitar series) DP (Dual Pickups) 16 (model year since 2014) GT (Gold Top) NH (Nickel Hardware) 1 (right handed)

DT = Dot (vs. block markers) per Gibson C/S as in ESDT
TD = Thinline Dual pups . . . . . . . . . . as in ESTD (or for an LP, TD = TraDitional)

T = Figured Top (don't know how Gibson derived that nomenclature) vs. P = Plain/Painted Top (??)

DT = Dot, Figured Top (??)

DP = Dual Pickups

DP = Dot, Plain/Painted Top (??)

.

 

[2penny_hangover]

Thanks for the info Dave, I already stumbled upon this explanation, which is why I got to wondering why it's labeled as Southen Jumbo when it's obviously a J45. Probably a mislabel and nothing sinister... I wrote to Gibson support, asking for info about the guitar according to serial and model number. Also asked the seller to clear the glue from the serial on the neck join, to match it against the one on the broschure.

Will probably pull the trigger if nothing suspicious happens.

[PrairieDog]

4 hours ago, 2penny_hangover said:

Thanks for the info Dave, I already stumbled upon this explanation, which is why I got to wondering why it's labeled as Southen Jumbo when it's obviously a J45. Probably a mislabel and nothing sinister... I wrote to Gibson support, asking for info about the guitar according to serial and model number. Also asked the seller to clear the glue from the serial on the neck join, to match it against the one on the broschure.

Will probably pull the trigger if nothing suspicious happens.

Or, the paperwork isn’t for this guitar?  Until the doc matches the serial number in the instrument, good luck with the “glue”, somebody could have swapped docs, or something got put back in the wrong case at a shop, or otherwise mixed up at some point.  I’d say, any id info that is not found somewhere on the guitar itself, means all bets are off as to whether any paper with it  is for the guitar.   

Edited January 13 by PrairieDog

[2penny_hangover]

12 minutes ago, PrairieDog said:

Or, the paperwork isn’t for this guitar?  Until the doc matches the serial number in the instrument, good luck with the “glue”, somebody could have swapped docs, or something got put back in the wrong case at a shop, or otherwise mixed up at some point.

Thanks for the tip. Does make sense. Tomorrow the seller should show me the serial number behind the glue and I'm hopeful it matches the paperwork. For some reason I had the impression that custom shop instruments from Gibson come with a bit more than the checklist broschure. 

[Dave F]

I thought I would look at some of my model designations. One is obvious, the others? Glad I know what they are.

 

[fortyearspickn]

Since the J45 and the Southern Jumbo are very, very similar - given the ridiculous secret code system Gibson uses and changes to designate models - I'd not be concerned about this discrepancy.   Assuming you've eliminated all the usual clues re. fakes - like 3 screw truss rod covers.   G'Luck. 

[Larsongs]

I’m a stickler for documentation.. There are tons of Chibson’s out there… And they can make Guitars that look just the Guitars they’re copying…

No Serial number or Docs. That would be a strong pass for me.. There are so many Guitars out there that you can get the real thing with Serial number, the Case Candy & Doc’s..

[QuestionMark]

I have a 2006 Custom Shop 1964 J45 from Fullers bought new.  It has no serial number on the inside back or on the neck.  But it has a FON on the neck block inside of of the guitar.  Fullers had said they had the Custom Shop make it this way.

 

QM aka “Jazzman” Jeff

[2penny_hangover]

As there were no more suspicious signs and the seller seems trustworthy I went ahead and purchased the guitar. Hopefully it will arrive within a week and I'll post more details in a NGD post.

[Silversurfer]

On 1/14/2024 at 1:22 PM, 2penny_hangover said:

As there were no more suspicious signs and the seller seems trustworthy I went ahead and purchased the guitar. Hopefully it will arrive within a week and I'll post more details in a NGD post.

Looks totally legit. If the price was right, sounds like you made the right decision.

[2penny_hangover]

Got the J-45 about ten days ago but only now I feel I have enough time with it to report back. It's legit. Sounded very impressive straight out of the case. Very bassy, with round mids and highs. Rediculously low action, with some -not unpleasant- buzzing sound when digging in 😉might be too muddy for some recording due to strong bass. The fretboard has beautiful dark rosewood but it was very dirty and I spent the better part of an afternoon getting all the gunk out from around the frets. Some frets were high, so I ended up doing a fret level+crown+polish and gave the tross rod more releaf. Now it doesn't buzz at all unless digging real hard and the action is still low at 2mm low e and 1.5mm high e (3/64'' - 4/64''). The frets were a bit low even before the leveling and with the low action it makes bending a bit more difficult than it should be (the string above the bent string often gets caught in the bend), but it might be a matter of adjusting my technique. 

The seller said it had red spruce for the top, which he probably heard in the shop, but the grain seemed too narrow for an adirondack top. I heard back from Gibson and seems mine has a sitka top, as they didn't switch to adirondack until 2013 for the 50's model. Possibly, in 2014, the shop had several of these when the seller was there, so it might have been a mixed bunch of adi (2013) and sitka (2012) tops, and he chose the sitka thinking it's (and possibly paying for) adirondack. I really don't mind the Sitka top as my other acoustic guitar has an adirondack top. It feels more easy to overdrive and make it bark.

The thick neck I was expecting. I noticed it seriously changes the way I play. More relaxed and effortless, but less nimble (so far). I'm comparing back and forth with a  Guild Orpheum (adi top, hog b&s, long scale, slim neck, slope shoulder with a slightly different shape). They are as different as can be. The Guild is more focused and balanced. The J45 more bassy and slinky.

Back in  2012-13 there was the J-45 std. the J-45 TV, the J-45 Vintage and probably some historic re-issues. Additionally, it appears these "custom shop" 50's models were quite common (I saw a few online). By looking at specs,  it seems identical to the 50's J-45 model on mass production today, but I've never played one for comparison. Only differences I could notice is the lack of label, different placements for serial number and the custom shop stamp in the back.

I really wonder how this J-45 compares to the others that were made in 2012. In any case, It's a definite keeper. No other guitar I have plays like that. Might do a partial / complete re-fret at some point, but for now I'm happy. The price was very similar to a modern day J45 50's on the street. Not sure if I got something special objectively speaking, but it's special for me 🎸

Here's the gibby (left) next to the Guild Orpheum.

 

 

[PrairieDog]

Great!! It’s a good looking guitar.  Glad it turned out so well.  Had my fingers crossed for you! Strum on!

[fortyearspickn]

A very happy ending.   You can't go wrong with a J-45!   Funny how some folks will slather up their fingers in BBQ sauce and then pick up their guitar !!