SeanMc Posted June 12 Share Posted June 12 I purchased this guitar in the late 90s used at a music store. The serial number tells me it was built Jan 24th 1983 in Nashville. I have never seen another Gibson quite like it. I looked through the 1982 and 1983 catalogs, and I didn't see it. I looked through older catalogs and haven't seen this model. It has a similar shape to an SG, but I don't think it is because the edges aren't tapered. The head stock just has Gibson and Standard words. I've been wondering what guitar this is for over a decade. I thought someone here may know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieDog Posted June 12 Share Posted June 12 3 hours ago, SeanMc said: I purchased this guitar in the late 90s used at a music store. The serial number tells me it was built Jan 24th 1983 in Nashville. I have never seen another Gibson quite like it. I looked through the 1982 and 1983 catalogs, and I didn't see it. I looked through older catalogs and haven't seen this model. It has a similar shape to an SG, but I don't think it is because the edges aren't tapered. The head stock just has Gibson and Standard words. I've been wondering what guitar this is for over a decade. I thought someone here may know. I hate to go here, but that horn looks off to me. Have you removed the truss rod cover to check the fitting there? Gibsons have a very specific nut. Copies often use other fasteners. Given it says “Standard” on the TRC doesn’t seem to speak to it being produced as a special or rare build. It actually raises some red flags, especially if you can’t find any comps, given the number of Standard SGs in the world. Unfortunately buying used, even from a music store doesn’t guarantee authenticity. Stores can get duped too. Best of luck. I’m not a model expert by any means, so I hope I’m wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JO'C Posted June 12 Share Posted June 12 Hi Sean, Back in 2015, I attended an auction in RI that had 5 fake Gibsons. I took pics to add to my database of what to look for in fakes. One of them looks close to yours, at least the body shape and top carve does. Neither this one or yours has a Gibson bridge or tailpiece. Like Prairie Dog said, the horn looks off due to asymmetry. There are LP Special Double Cuts but the horns are symmetrical. The tuner placement on the headstock look off as well. Gibson tuners are always in a straight line and don't follow the curvature of the headstock. Remove the truss rod cover and check the end of the truss rod. A Gibson will have a 5/16" nut to adjust the tension. Fakes typically have an Allen Wrench hex head with no nut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted June 12 Share Posted June 12 It is unique and unusual, but not in the way you were hoping. rct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanMc Posted June 12 Author Share Posted June 12 I should have had alarm bells ringing when I bought it. I think I paid $300 back in the late 90s for this guitar. At least for that price I probably got my money worth. Played the heck out of this guitar, and for what it is, it is not a bad guitar. Feels and sounds good to play. I don't think I ever gave the guitar's authenticity any scrutiny. I didn't even know fake Gibsons were a thing until today. Anyway, I took a closer look today. The logo, seems spot on. The headstock measurements I took seemed good. Not sure if it was a lighting or angle thing. The thing that really gave me pause was when I took a look at the electronics for the first time. Yikes. I put the images I took here. https://photos.app.goo.gl/fCZ5a3LypbBVuk6k8 The screw where the pick guard meets the a pickup is cut in half. Now I know this thing must be a fake. I don't think Gibson would be responsible for such shoddy craftsmanship. This leaves me in a weird spot about how I feel about that guitar now. I thought I was playing on something great, which is subjective. Since I've never played something really great I don't know the difference. I don't feel that I overpaid for it, so I don't feel taken advantage of. On the plus side, if I sell this thing, I won't feel like I need to get top dollar for it. Probably just give it away for a song and let whoever I give it to know that it isn't the real deal. I got my $300 of enjoyment out of it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieDog Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 You’ve got an great and admirable attitude, Sean. That is the best way to look at it. And yeah, if you played well with it, it doesn’t matter what is was, you played well. Like you said, sounds like the perfect guitar to pass on for a song, or toss it a kid who’s dreaming of plugging in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Scales Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 That’s very interesting Sean, and you couldn’t get a lot for that money even in the 90s so you’ve indeed had great value from it. What I find most interesting is: a. You bought it in the 90s (before insane ‘vintage’ guitars as investments times) - I doubt there was much of a counterfeit market then, and even if someone did want to build fakes they wouldn’t build them in a totally different shape to a real Gibson….and it actually looks like they had some skill and put some thought into it so maybe it’s more a case of someone building a personal project of how they wished a Les Paul was built? Obviously the music store didn’t consider it a rare and valuable LP at $300 or try to rip you off. b. That it has what could be an appropriate serial number…could it somehow be that a Gibson neck or at least headstock (if not entire guitar) has been used in this possibly reimagined Les Paul by the ‘visionary’ builder ? interesting, thanks for sharing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieDog Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 (edited) See JO’s post above. Nothing really too surprising, sadly, even back then. Lots of fakes are floating around. Heck one guy tried to pawn a couple off to the small but highly connected indie store I dealt with back in the 70s. The schmo didn’t do his research so didn’t know who he was trying to sell to, chuckle. And there has been a crazy vintage market for decades. You just didn’t see it all on the internet. We had two high end shops who dealt with selling high end collector guitars to and for major collectors and artists. And just saying, anybody can copy and stamp any serial number on a headstock. As they say in the art market, you don’t fake a Jackson Pollock or Picasso, those are too public and easily found out. You fake the middle of the market, a prolific artist with a good sales history, who maybe has some buzz, but no strong catalog to refer too, do it close enough to the style, copy the signature reasonably, sell it through the low tier second hand market, where dreamers shop thinking they have a chance to score sleepers, and boom you make a few hundreds or thousands off something if it where real, would be 5-6 figures. The scammers don’t care they only got a fraction, they only paid for paint and canvas. And the kicker is, at the bargain prices the buyers end up paying, if it comes out later it’s a fake, most folks are going to eat it, as a risk of the game, rather than make a fuss and face the embarrassment they got took. The running joke is Corot painted 5,000 pictures in his life, and 10,000 of them are in America. Edited June 13 by PrairieDog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanMc Posted June 13 Author Share Posted June 13 @'Scales That is an interesting theory. The neck and headstock seem authentic to me. This could be some Frankenstein guitar. Might not be an intentional fake. Impossible to say what the intent was. The bad soldering inside may have been someone putting some after market upgrades in. One thing for sure is this guitar is not an original Gibson or at least not 100% of the guitar is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave F Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 Did you remove the truss rod cover and check the nut? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Scales Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 3 hours ago, SeanMc said: @'Scales That is an interesting theory. The neck and headstock seem authentic to me. This could be some Frankenstein guitar. Might not be an intentional fake. Impossible to say what the intent was. The bad soldering inside may have been someone putting some after market upgrades in. One thing for sure is this guitar is not an original Gibson or at least not 100% of the guitar is. It’s an interesting article nonetheless 13 hours ago, PrairieDog said: See JO’s post above. Nothing really too surprising, sadly, even back then. Lots of fakes are floating around. Heck one guy tried to pawn a couple off to the small but highly connected indie store I dealt with back in the 70s. And just saying, anybody can copy and stamp any serial number on a headstock. Yeah I did. One similar(ish) example 15-20 years later. Hardly a profusion - and my main point being since it doesn’t look anything like any production LP I’ve seen I thought it more as someone’s doing their own redesign. The price doesn't suggest someone tried to sucker the store, or the store Sean, so hardly the master criminal…how could they have made a cent on it? I admit I have no idea of whether people were faking serial #s back pre-internet/info availability days, or whether buyers back then even checked such things, but it seemed more interesting given the era in which it was bought…to me anyway. As for the rest, I don’t consider myself a naive idiot, but then you're not to know that so thanks anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave F Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 If it is genuine, my guess is a heavily modified Epiphone Spirit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanMc Posted June 15 Author Share Posted June 15 (edited) Dave F, this is very interesting. My guitar might not be a fake or even all that heavily modified as I believed. The body, pick guard, humbucker and bridge on my guitar are identical. Gibson made a Spirit II that had two humbucker pickups, like mine does. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibson_Spirit "In response to poor sales, some Epiphone models were changed to Gibson, and a faint Epiphone logo can be seen under the Gibson logo on the peghead." That original Epiphone logo imprint is still visible when I get the light to hit it just right. I think there were some minor modifications that the owner likely made. I know the tuning pegs were changed, as I can see the outline of where the original ones were. The factory normally made 40 guitars/day and the serial number says it was the 37th of the day. So I wonder if they were converting some Epiphone Spirits over to Gibson brand and got sloppy with one when they were putting the humbucker in and cut the pick guard. Two mysteries remain. One is the location of the pickup switch. That seems unique to my guitar. The other is the "Standard" on the truss rod cover instead of "Spirit". Maybe someone swapped the truss rod cover. Dave, that picture looks so similar to mine. I'm betting the pickguard was cut and the humbucker was added, the switch was added, the extra two knobs were added, and the logo was switched. I don't know how consistent Gibson was when converting these Epiphone spirits to Gibsons. Maybe they did some a little different, like mine. All the details of how Gibson converted Epiphone spirits to Gibson spirits lines up with my guitar. The wiring soldering looks similar to what I have on my guitar. I just though it was messy, but looks like others were messy too. Found this picture on a Reverb.com for a 81 Spirit II. https://reverb.com/item/71502146-gibson-spirit-ii-1981-tobacco-burst-w-hsc-used Edited June 15 by SeanMc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave F Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 Good news! You went from thinking it's a fake to now having a rare model with great pickups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanMc Posted June 15 Author Share Posted June 15 I hadn't seen the Spirit I or Spirit II guitars. My best guess right now is Gibson was prototyping how to convert Epiphone Spirit I to Gibson, and they converted an Epiphone Spirit I to a Gibson Spirit II. That would explain the pickguard of the Spirit I and the two humbuckers. The pickup toggle switch being were it is feels like someone was trying to figure out where to put it. It could be a prototype they never went with. The truss rod cover swap could even be part of the prototype. I doubt that the pickup toggle was put in after market because the bottom-most tone knob works. The tone knobs are not the same as the Spirits so those might be after market changes. There's a lot about my guitar that feels like a prototype. Guess that makes it rare, but hard to say if a collector would be interested in a prototype. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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