Nancy Pelosi is a liar.

[FennRx]

interesting first post. not that i disagree. just interesting.

[bol316]

Over/under on how long Neo can contain himself and not post?

[TommyK]

 

I'm glad we agree that all those responsible for the torture of prisoners in U.S. custody should be prosecuted. ALL THOSE.

 

The lowest casualty rate in recorded military history' date=' among OUR troops, and lack of further successful attacks on US soil, says it was worth it. This type of information gathering is an ugly part of war ... but it is a part of war. Compared to what Senator John McCain was subjected to at the Hanoi Hilton, waterboarding is pretty innocuous.

 

 

And before someone says something really ignorant like, "what's torture". That's up to the legal experts and there are plenty of examples from history. Like the Nuremberg trials.

 

Oh gawd... don't get the law yers involved.

[TommyK]

[I find it very amusing that so many are so quick to jump to the defense of those poor fellas that took part in whacking the heads off Americans on camera for the world to see. So many are so worried about these poor little guys that strap bombs to thier chests and blow up women and children. These poor little fellas that are just misguided that use women as beasts of burden and rape them and beat them. These poor guys.....on average gained weight while in detention' date=' were treated better than by the masterminds that use them for " smart bombs" by telling them that there will be blond virgins in heaven waiting for them. I read a book about a revered British military leader that was dealing with similar problems in the Phillipines back in the 1930's. He dug a big hole and slaughtered 100 pigs and threw the parts in the hole then rounded up his detainees (about 150) and shot (all but one) them dead, then cut thier heads off and scattered the parts with the pig parts and buried then together. Then he released the one that witnessed it to go tell the others what happens when they cause problems. There were no more problems until many years after the british left. I say we close quantanamo in this fashion except release nobody, just televise it. Our common enemy see's all this debate about dribbling water on foreheads as proof that we are a weak people. And just like sharks, they will come in for the kill when they smell weakness. They do not respect fair play, they are playing to win. And they are using our own media to do it. Don't get me wrong, I was repulsed when I first saw the photos of the sexual abuse that the prisoners in Iraq were subjected to by those National Guardsmen. Everyone in that chain of command should have been locked up and never released.( And be subjected to the same treatment) But the guys that have the responsibility to keep America safe, should get a pass on this one. I'm perfectly willing to do so. Had I been in thier shoes, I might have followed in the footsteps of historical success. Every President in the past has always had the fellas that can do this sort of thing quietly. This sort of thing is not new, and it is why war is hell. War is supposed to be so ugly that it is unthinkable to get into a war with us so the bad guys out there will fear doing something to anger us. With the press nowadays...some how people think that war is supposed to be clean and sterile with no body getting hurt. I say B.S. ! I say we find the meanest, craziest, unscrupulus, warmongers; arm them to the teeth and turn them loose to rape pilliage, plunder, and kill anything that moves. level the place. Then the next time the bad guys are squatting around the sheesha pipe in the middle of the desert plotting to kill thousands of Americans, they might consider the consequences.......... Yea, Pelosi is a liar. Go figure, shes a politician right? I am sick of all these liberal or conservative labels. I say next election...everyone vote for whomever was not in office before, no matter what the party. we need to make a statement that we are sick of demo this or repub that......I want a new party. The AMERICAN party. I want people that are interested in doing what is right for AMERICA. I say that we do not allow career politicians anymore. One term, two at most then take yer butt and go get a real job. Work for a living like the rest of us. Then the party system will fall apart, because the rebublicans and the democrats do not have our interest at heart, they only care about getting re-elected and will tell any lie or do anything to keep that going so that they can steal more and more of our money. Bailout ?? HAHA! look at who pocketed Obamas bailout money. The little guy? No. The filthy rich. and getting richer. Thats it......I'm done with my rant...I just get worked up when normally intelligent musicians get wrapped up in the political lying game. We are supposed to be smarter tham the average bear and not believe what the media feed you daily. Open your eyes and question everything. do not accept anything that NAY politician says at face value. Usually....just follow the money and you will find the truth.

 

"So Many"... those already apologizing for defending our country by holding people criminally accountable for doing their friggin' job.

 

Last bolded statement: THawk... Glad to see someone else is paying attention. Your education was worth every penny.

 

For those who;ve missed it, Ahmandinnahole of Iran did NOT want to negotiate with W and is NOT negotiating with O. He's negotiating with the real power in the US, us. There's a reason shrewed negotiators are compared to Persian Rug Dealers..... it's their culture. The loser in any negotiation is the one who fails to realize he's in a negotiation.... it's THEIR culture.

[Homz]

I find it very amusing that so many are so quick to jump to the defense of those poor fellas that took part in whacking the heads off Americans on camera for the world to see. So many are so worried about these poor little guys that strap bombs to thier chests and blow up women and children. These poor little fellas that are just misguided that use women as beasts of burden and rape them and beat them. These poor guys.....on average gained weight while in detention' date=' were treated better than by the masterminds that use them for " smart bombs" by telling them that there will be blond virgins in heaven waiting for them.[/quote']

 

If you think I am doing as you say than you really don't understand my point at all. WE are a country of laws. I expect those that we charge with defending those laws to also follow them. As testimony to congressional hearings showed yesterday. The lead FBI investigator pointed out that the torture techniques used didn't provide information any more then the standard techniques did. BTW that is irrelevant to my point. Even if it did provide information that wouldn't change the legality of torture.

 

I find it amazing that any American could actually make a rational argument for torture. I hope we will rise above this shame delivered to us by arrogant evil people who have shown the world that we are capable of actions that are no better then those we condemn as terrorists. I do have some hope that our current leaders will do what is necessary and go forth with any necessary prosecutions.

[grampa]

Everybody who in any way allowed or even knew about the torture are not only an embarassment, they are serious criminals and this goes way up the chain to the White House.

[80LPC]

I read a book about a revered British military leader that was dealing with similar problems in the Phillipines back in the 1930's. He dug a big hole and slaughtered 100 pigs and threw the parts in the hole then rounded up his detainees (about 150) and shot (all but one) them dead' date=' then cut thier heads off and scattered the parts with the pig parts and buried then together. Then he released the one that witnessed it to go tell the others what happens when they cause problems. There were no more problems until many years after the british left.[/quote']

 

Are you confusing the Philippines with Malaya ? The British were keen to hang on to Malaya which provided a third of the world's natural rubber and tin. 250,000 troops were sent to suppress the independence movement, and the truth regarding the brutality was suppressed for over 20 years.

 

While the British were the dictators in Malaya, it was America running the colonial operation in the Philippines. They were were ousted by the Japanese in WWII.

 

Your story above represents a callous imperial view. A nation with superior armed forces declares sovereignty over another nation to acquire (steal) the resources. There is revolt, and the colonials commit atrocities to 'set an example'.

 

Is this anything to be proud of ?

[Californiaman]

If it is established that Pelosi' date=' Bush, Cheneny, Rumsfeld, and who ever else from the top to the bottom are guilty then they should be at the very least spending the rest of their lives in jail. [/quote']

 

For what?

Upholding the oath they took when they were sworn into office?

For using enhanced interrogation techniques against someone who would just as soon shoot you dead than listen to your political rants?

For what?

Hunting down terrorists who have sworn to destroy the United States of America?

Those people swore an oath to protect the likes of you and me so we can sit here in the safety of cyberspace and enjoy our political differences.

Don't you get it?

Not to long ago life was terrific for you. Firing on all cylinders, Homz.

How'd you really like topsy turvy? How about a bunch of those Jihadists Islama Fascists attack the heartland of America?

I'm just saying.

Nice posting by the way.

[The Mick]

 

For what?

 

War Crime

 

Colloquial definitions of war crime include violations of established protections of the laws of war' date=' but also include failures to adhere to norms of procedure and rules of battle, such as attacking those displaying a flag of truce, or using that same flag as a ruse of war to mount an attack. Attacking enemy troops while they are being deployed by way of a parachute is not a war crime. However, Protocol I, Article 42 of the Geneva Conventions explicitly forbids attacking parachutists who eject from damaged airplanes, and surrendering parachutists once landed.[4'] War crimes include such acts as mistreatment of prisoners of war or civilians. War crimes are sometimes part of instances of mass murder and genocide though these crimes are more broadly covered under international humanitarian law described as crimes against humanity.

War crimes are significant in international humanitarian law because it is an area where international tribunals such as the Nuremberg Trials and Tokyo trials have been convened. Recent examples are the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia and the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda, which were established by the UN Security Council acting under Chapter VIII of the UN Charter.

Under the Nuremberg Principles, war crimes are different from crimes against peace which is planning, preparing, initiating, or waging a war of aggression, or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements, or assurances.

Geneva Conventions

 

Common Article 3

Article 3 has been called a "Convention in miniature." It is the only article of the Geneva Conventions that applies in non-international conflicts.[2]

It describes minimal protections which must be adhered to by all individuals within a signatory's territory during an armed conflict not of an international character (regardless of citizenship or lack thereof): Noncombatants, combatants who have laid down their arms, and combatants who are hors de combat (out of the fight) due to wounds, detention, or any other cause shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, including prohibition of outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment. The passing of sentences must also be pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples. Article 3's protections exist even though no one is classified as a prisoner of war.

[The Mick]

War crimes are defined in the statute that established the International Criminal Court, which includes:[citation needed]

Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions, such as:

Willful killing, or causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health

Torture or inhumane treatment

Unlawful wanton destruction or appropriation of property

Forcing a prisoner of war to serve in the forces of a hostile power

Depriving a prisoner of war of a fair trial

Unlawful deportation, confinement or transfer

Taking hostages

The following acts as part of an international conflict:

Directing attacks against civilians

Directing attacks against humanitarian workers or UN peacekeepers

Killing a surrendered combatant

Misusing a flag of truce

Settlement of occupied territory

Deportation of inhabitants of occupied territory

Using poison weapons

Using civilians as shields

Using child soldiers

The following acts as part of a non-international conflict:

Murder, cruel or degrading treatment and torture

Directing attacks against civilians, humanitarian workers or UN peacekeepers

Taking hostages

Summary execution

Pillage

Rape, sexual slavery, forced prostitution or forced pregnancy

[Californiaman]

Mick Eye don't agree with you here.

Eye think we're going to have to disagree.

In meye opinion, what ever it takes to save American lives.

If faced with a similar situation, say that beautiful daughter of yours was being held by a terrorist group, and we had one of them we could interrogate, wouldn't you want them to use what ever means necessary to find out where they had her?

I know I would in a situation like that.

[The Mick]

Mick Eye don't agree with you here.

Eye think we're going to have to disagree.

In meye opinion' date=' what ever it takes to save American lives.

If faced with a similar situation, say that beautiful daughter of yours was being held by a terrorist group, and we had one of them we could interrogate, wouldn't you want them to use what ever means necessary to find out where they had her?

I know I would in a situation like that.[/quote']

 

Eye'm not saying it's right but it's something our country agreed to and we should than abide to it. If in fact we consider ourselves a civilized country. Hypocrisy makes us look bad.

 

And your right Eye would probably set my morals aside for that. Eye have been in situations where Eye would have loved to just bludgeon particular people to death. And for good reasons to. But once again my conscious stops me.

[The Mick]

Oh ya and

 

Bunker was a cool Avatar.

 

sweet you brought him back.

[KSG_Standard]

 

You seem to have lost the point of the thread. You put more value on the weather someone is a democrat or a republican then you do weather there were wrongs done. Allow me to be perfectly clear. I don't give a damn which party they are part of. To concern your self with such nonsense in the face of war crimes is to say your POS party is more important then your country. Any and all people who participated in or signed orders to torture (as determined by those that are expected to make such decisions) should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. If it is established that Pelosi' date=' Bush, Cheneny, Rumsfeld, and who ever else from the top to the bottom are guilty then they should be at the very least spending the rest of their lives in jail. [/quote']

 

I am not a member of any political party. I don't give a damn what YOU think. The only torture I've ever seen or experienced in my lifetime, is the torture of trying to follow your twisted, emotional arguments.

 

Since I'm helping to pay for your paid time off, why don't you go pick up trash along the highway or something? Do something useful and stop drinking during the day.

 

PS...It's whether, not weather!:-

[Homz]

 

I am not a member of any political party. I don't give a damn what YOU think. The only torture I've ever seen or experienced in my lifetime' date=' is the torture of trying to follow your twisted, emotional arguments.

 

Since I'm helping to pay for your paid time off, why don't you go pick up trash along the highway or something? Do something useful and stop drinking during the day.

 

PS...It's whether, not weather!:- [/quote']

 

You are the one that pointed at the party as being of some significance. Your obviously incapable of being critical of anyone to the right. Save us from any further notions of your neutrality. No one here is that damn ignorant.

 

As for you paying for my time off. Thanks for the week off. I got called back this morning. I go back on Monday. I wont burden you for any more hand outs in the form of unemployment pay. BTW I didn't get any unemployment pay this was my waiting week. Sure wish I was a self indulging POS who cared for no one, but myself. Life sure would be easier. Tell me how's that working for you?

[TommyK]

Guess maybe a waterboard was a waste of good pine.

Shoulda not captured 'em, then just put a bullit in 'em and called it a day.

[Californiaman]

+1=d>

[KSG_Standard]

... Tell me how's that working for you?

 

Things are going well, thanks for asking Comrade!

[Homz]

Guess maybe a waterboard was a waste of good pine.

Shoulda not captured 'em' date=' then just put a bullit in 'em and called it a day.[/quote']

 

If they had done as you suggest it sure would have been less of a burden on the chain of command.

[Homz]

 

Things are going well' date=' thanks for asking Comrade!

 

[/quote']

 

You and Cheney going hunting soon?

[The Mick]

Eye am not sticking up for terrorists or any of them. But we as a nation agreed to a set of rules of war. For the sake of humanity as a whole. Why should we be able to side step the law ? We have taken part in the convictions of people for committing the same crimes.

 

And Eye for an Eye makes the whole world blind

MAHATMA GANDHI

[Californiaman]

I find it very amusing that so many are so quick to jump to the defense of those poor fellas that took part in whacking the heads off Americans on camera for the world to see. So many are so worried about these poor little guys that strap bombs to thier chests and blow up women and children. These poor little fellas that are just misguided that use women as beasts of burden and rape them and beat them. These poor guys.....on average gained weight while in detention' date=' were treated better than by the masterminds that use them for " smart bombs" by telling them that there will be blond virgins in heaven waiting for them. I read a book about a revered British military leader that was dealing with similar problems in the Phillipines back in the 1930's. He dug a big hole and slaughtered 100 pigs and threw the parts in the hole then rounded up his detainees (about 150) and shot (all but one) them dead, then cut thier heads off and scattered the parts with the pig parts and buried then together. Then he released the one that witnessed it to go tell the others what happens when they cause problems. There were no more problems until many years after the british left. I say we close quantanamo in this fashion except release nobody, just televise it. Our common enemy see's all this debate about dribbling water on foreheads as proof that we are a weak people. And just like sharks, they will come in for the kill when they smell weakness. They do not respect fair play, they are playing to win. And they are using our own media to do it.

Don't get me wrong, I was repulsed when I first saw the photos of the sexual abuse that the prisoners in Iraq were subjected to by those National Guardsmen. Everyone in that chain of command should have been locked up and never released.( And be subjected to the same treatment) But the guys that have the responsibility to keep America safe, should get a pass on this one. I'm perfectly willing to do so. Had I been in thier shoes, I might have followed in the footsteps of historical success. Every President in the past has always had the fellas that can do this sort of thing quietly. This sort of thing is not new, and it is why war is hell. War is supposed to be so ugly that it is unthinkable to get into a war with us so the bad guys out there will fear doing something to anger us. With the press nowadays...some how people think that war is supposed to be clean and sterile with no body getting hurt. I say B.S. ! I say we find the meanest, craziest, unscrupulus, warmongers; arm them to the teeth and turn them loose to rape pilliage, plunder, and kill anything that moves. level the place. Then the next time the bad guys are squatting around the sheesha pipe in the middle of the desert plotting to kill thousands of Americans, they might consider the consequences.......... Yea, Pelosi is a liar. Go figure, shes a politician right? I am sick of all these liberal or conservative labels. I say next election...everyone vote for whomever was not in office before, no matter what the party. we need to make a statement that we are sick of demo this or repub that......I want a new party. The AMERICAN party. I want people that are interested in doing what is right for AMERICA. I say that we do not allow career politicians anymore. One term, two at most then take yer butt and go get a real job. Work for a living like the rest of us. Then the party system will fall apart, because the rebublicans and the democrats do not have our interest at heart, they only care about getting re-elected and will tell any lie or do anything to keep that going so that they can steal more and more of our money. Bailout ?? HAHA! look at who pocketed Obamas bailout money. The little guy? No. The filthy rich. and getting richer. Thats it......I'm done with my rant...I just get worked up when normally intelligent musicians get wrapped up in the political lying game. We are supposed to be smarter tham the average bear and not believe what the media feed you daily. Open your eyes and question everything. do not accept anything that NAY politician says at face value. Usually....just follow the money and you will find the truth.[/quote']

 

I have to say I agree with everything you said here TommyHawk.

Those who don't are MEATHEADS.

[Homz]

 

I have to say I agree with everything you said here TommyHawk.

Those who don't are MEATHEADS.

 

Resident MEATHEAD in the house.

[Californiaman]

Yeah, that's just like you

desigrating on the flag and all.

Disrespecting our men in uniform who protect and serve.

Waving your little freak flag all over the place.

MEATHEAD

 

Just kidding Homz,

Hey did that open sore ever clear up with the cream the guy at the clinic gave you?

[Buc McMaster]

Torture. Hmmm......let's see............

 

Pyramiding naked guys in the jailhouse hallway. Torture? College hazing prank. Summer camp bunkhouse mischief. Same goes for pulling panties over the head. Terrible stuff.

 

Terrorizing individuals with ferocious, trained barking dogs. Torture? Cops did the same thing to blacks marching for civil rights in the 60's, and still today they turn dogs loose on siuspected criminals during some pursuits.

 

Waterboarding. Perhaps a little farther over the edge, but has anyone been drowned in the process? Not that we've heard about, and I'm sure the hell-for-leather media would love to tell us a story like that.

 

At worst I see these techniques as coersion. Mental distress. Tell John McCain any of the above is torture. Torture is breaking arms, severing fingers, gouging eyes......doing physical harm to the human body. We're dealing with individuals that belong to radical sects that kill innocents by any means possible - bombings, decapitations, etc. There are those that say we should not sink to their level of mayhem and terror. Really? Do you say the same to the G.I.s that fought the Japanese hand-to-hand on beaches throughout the Pacific during WW2? Do you say the same to the police officers that engage armed and dangerous criminals in the dark of night on the streets of America? When first to set out to engage a dog in a fight you had best be prepared to fight like one, or you will be handed your butt. Yes, yes I agree such dealings are distasteful for the average Joe on the street, but we're not talking about disciplining a rebellious teenager here............war is hell. War is not pretty. War is something few of us have endured or can even imagine the horrors of. If pouring water over the face of a bad guy can provide information that will minimize or remove the threat of violence done on innocents, I say hand me the bucket!