Nancy Pelosi.....

[KSG_Standard]

So we should all give in to our Barbaric Tendencies and call it right? We should let out inner caveman determine the proper course of action?

 

I don't believe that waterboarding is barbaric, or torture. You apparently do. On that we'll have to agree to disagree. I think that cutting off someone's head with a dull rusty knife is barbaric, I think that raping children is barbaric, I think that burning people with cigarettes or torches is barbaric, I think that using a power drill to remove somebody's eye is pretty freakin barbaric too, as is flying planes loaded with civilians into buildings full of more civilians. But that's just me.

[NeoConMan]

They blow up our soldiers using civilian cars or planting devices among their own people.

They burn the bodies of civilian contractors, drag them behind pickups and hang them from bridges.

They behead people like journalist Danny Pearl and contractor Nick Berg - didja see the whole video?

 

They kill their own schoolgirls because they don't believe they should be educated.

 

We waterboard OUR OWN AGENTS in training, so I don't believe it meets the definition of torture.

Fear? Sure, and I'm fine with that.

 

Do we ever leave any scars on our prisoners?

No.

 

 

If I'm a military commander in the field and you tell me I can NOT forcefully interrogate any prisoners I might capture, then I will simply kill them if they don't talk. That's right - point a gun at their head and tell them to talk or meet Allah.

If they don't, then BANG!

Just one more military casualty....

[NeoConMan]

So we should all give in to our Barbaric Tendencies and call it right? We should let out inner caveman determine the proper course of action?

There's a new name now for that sort of thinking....

You sound like Nancy Pelosi, and you know what kind of credibility SHE has now....

 

[Homz]

They blow up our soldiers using civilian cars or planting devices among their own people.

They burn the bodies of civilian contractors' date=' drag them behind pickups and hang them from bridges.

They behead people like [i']journalist[/i] Danny Pearl and contractor Nick Berg - didja see the whole video?

 

They kill their own schoolgirls because they don't believe they should be educated.

 

We waterboard OUR OWN AGENTS in training, so I don't believe it meets the definition of torture.

Fear? Sure, and I'm fine with that.

 

Do we ever leave any scars on our prisoners?

No.

 

 

If I'm a military commander in the field and you tell me I can NOT forcefully interrogate any prisoners I might capture, then I will simply kill them if they don't talk. That's right - point a gun at their head and tell them to talk or meet Allah.

If they don't, then BANG!

Just one more military casualty....

 

 

So now your a supporter of Pelosi?

Ya got to admit it becomes really screwed up when republicans are standing up for one of their most hated foes. Now that's high comedy.

[FirstMeasure]

 

I don't believe that waterboarding is barbaric' date=' or torture. You apparently do. On that we'll have to agree to disagree. I think that cutting off someone's head with a dull rusty knife is barbaric, I think that raping children is barbaric, I think that burning people with cigarettes or torches is barbaric, I think that using a power drill to remove somebody's eye is pretty freakin barbaric too, as is flying planes loaded with civilians into buildings full of more civilians. But that's just me.

 

 

[/quote']

That's right. And I don't want my country to start thinking it's alright to do any of that stuff because some lawyer redefines the word "wrong".

[NeoConMan]

So now your a supporter of Pelosi?

There you go, implying again.....

No, I've been telling everybody what a dumb b!tch she is since 2005.

 

I support doing what is required on the field of battle.

[Homz]

BTW I've hated Pelosi since she took her current position. She publicly stated she wouldn't open investigations into possible corruption. I guess we know why she wouldn't do it now.

 

Like her or not. One of the primary responsibilities of congress is oversight of the executive branch. She stated she wasn't going to do her job. That's good enough for me.

[FirstMeasure]

They blow up our soldiers using civilian cars or planting devices among their own people.

They burn the bodies of civilian contractors' date=' drag them behind pickups and hang them from bridges.

They behead people like [i']journalist[/i] Danny Pearl and contractor Nick Berg - didja see the whole video?

 

They kill their own schoolgirls because they don't believe they should be educated.

 

We waterboard OUR OWN AGENTS in training, so I don't believe it meets the definition of torture.

Fear? Sure, and I'm fine with that.

 

Do we ever leave any scars on our prisoners?

No.

 

 

If I'm a military commander in the field and you tell me I can NOT forcefully interrogate any prisoners I might capture, then I will simply kill them if they don't talk. That's right - point a gun at their head and tell them to talk or meet Allah.

If they don't, then BANG!

Just one more military casualty....

 

Execution the way you describe is more humane than torture. I'm no military commander (and niether is anyone in this conversation) but I'd say if you can't get it out of the detainee with the threat of a gunshot to the head, show him you weren't threatening him and shoot him in the head.

 

We waterboard our own agents in training in the event they are captured and tortured, they can withstand the torture, right?

[FirstMeasure]

There's a new name now for that sort of thinking....

You sound like Nancy Pelosi' date=' and you know what kind of credibility SHE has now....

 

:-

 

[/quote']

Either you didn't get what I was saying our I didn't get what you said. I was asking KSG those questions because the logic of his arguments would suggest we should do as our first instincts would have us do. You'll have to go back over the conversation to see what I mean.

[KSG_Standard]

That's right. And I don't want my country to start thinking it's alright to do any of that stuff because some lawyer redefines the word "wrong".

 

If you have the time, google what the congressional definition of torture was from 1990-2005 and see if water boarding meets the legal definition. Whether or not any of us think water boarding is torture or not isn't the issue. The issue is what was the law of the land at the time the act occurred.

 

Water boarding was specifically outlawed in 2005, and there is no allegation that the technique has been used since on any detainee. Prior to 2005, water boarding was not only used on our own troops in training, but was also in conflicts from Korea to Vietnam to Central America, under US leaders from both parties.

 

There must be some valuable information obtained at least some of the time using the technique or our own intelligence agency wouldn't have been using it for so long. I'm willing to bet that a great deal of unsavory sh!t goes down in the world that our intelligence agencies are doing to keep us safe, and I'm willing to cut the government some slack when it comes to protecting us and our interests.

[NeoConMan]

We waterboard our own agents in training in the event they are captured and tortured' date=' they can withstand the torture, right?[/quote']

Huh?

 

Okay,

1. Waterboarding is NOT torture. Find me a definition that says it is - look up torture and find waterboarding listed...

2. Assuming you are successful with Number 1, tell me that a Muslim has ever waterboarded anybody.

3. If you want our agents to withstand torture, what sorts of torture are you prepared to subject them to?

4. Would you be willing to do the same things to our men that the Muslims will if captured?

5. Would you be willing to do the same things to Muslims we capture?

6. Tell me how often Muslims torture to get information. All they need to do is watch CNN. They do it because they want to.

[FirstMeasure]

Huh?

 

Okay' date='

[b']1.[/b] Waterboarding is NOT torture. Find me a definition that says it is - look up torture and find waterboarding listed...

2. Assuming you are successful with Number 1, tell me that a Muslim has ever waterboarded anybody.

3. If you want our agents to withstand torture, what sorts of torture are you prepared to subject them to?

4. Would you be willing to do the same things to our men that the Muslims will if captured?

5. Would you be willing to do the same things to Muslims we capture?

6. Tell me how often Muslims torture to get information. All they need to do is watch CNN. They do it because they want to.

Didn't KSG just get through saying it's been defined as torture since 2005?

And why do we Waterboard our own Agents if not to desensitize them to, not only Waterboarding, but whatever kind of interrogation or torture they may encounter? Just as our soldiers have to navigate an obstacle course filled with Rope swings and Hitching Posts made out of Telephone Poles before they go to battle so they can handle the rigors of combat, not so they can jump telephone poles.

 

4. No, you made my point about waterboarding our own agents.

5. No, I can't believe any information you get out of an enemy can be trusted. But then again, I'm no Military Commander and neither are you.

6. That's exactly what I'd like to be able to say America Doesn't Do.

[NeoConMan]

Here's a few definitions.

Looks like the Liberals and Defeatocrats haven't made it to the T's in the dictionary yet....

 

 

TORTURE

(n.) Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or…

(n.) Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in…

(v.) To subject (a person or an animal) to torture.

 

 

 

Torture, according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture, is: "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions."

 

 

 

1 a: anguish of body or mind : agony b: something that causes agony or pain

2: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure

3: distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument

 

 

 

–noun 1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.

2. a method of inflicting such pain.

3. Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone.

4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony.

5. a cause of severe pain or anguish.

 

–verb (used with object) 6. to subject to torture.

7. to afflict with severe pain of body or mind: My back is torturing me.

8. to force or extort by torture: We'll torture the truth from his lips!

9. to twist, force, or bring into some unnatural position or form: trees tortured by storms.

10. to distort or pervert (language, meaning, etc.).

 

 

 

Tom DeLay’s definition of torture: - and I agree 100%

“I don’t think water boarding is torture. My definition of torture is you physically harm someone by cutting them, by cutting their fingers, sticking things in their eyes, sticking their fingers in electric sockets. Water boarding is a frightening experience. But the person does not have physical damage.”

 

 

 

1984 United Nations Convention Against Torture (Article 1)

The legal difference between torture and other forms of ill treatment lies in the level of severity of pain or suffering imposed. In addition, torture requires the existence of a specific purpose behind the act – to obtain information, for example.

 

The various terms used to refer to different forms of ill treatment or infliction of pain can be explained as follows:

 

Torture: existence of a specific purpose plus intentional infliction of severe suffering or pain;

[NeoConMan]

And why do we Waterboard our own Agents

To thoroughly train them.

Part of it is to realize the limits of it' date=' and to have a better idea how to avoid actually harming anybody they render.

 

 

 

 

That's exactly what I'd like to be able to say America Doesn't Do.

So, maybe we should bring all our troops home and send you over there?

You could talk to them, reason with them, try to understand them and gain their trust....

Pretty arrogant of you to question the wisdom, judgment, morals, motivation and ethics of our soldiers.

 

When you get over there, you can display your credentials to the Fundamentalist Muslims and explain your unique qualifications and abilities that the best and brightest of our military - following centuries of tradition - lacked.

[FirstMeasure]

 

Torture' date=' according to the [i']United Nations Convention Against Torture[/i], is: "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions."

 

Fortunately you and Tom Delay don't write the dictionary.

 

I was starting to believe Waterboarding may not be torture till you showed me this

[NeoConMan]

Ah, the Liberal sees something with The United Nations on it and takes the bait.

THAT'S who you believe in, that's who you'll follow?

 

Um, if you read that again, you'll see that the definition of torture does NOT include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions.

 

In other words, that does NOT fall under their definition either when acting within lawful sanctions.....

 

You need to ignore the bait and focus more.

 

 

 

Let's get past this round and forget how badly you're losing the argument.

:-)

 

Jumping all the way out to a logical conclusion, let's just say once and for all the we disagree.

You think I'm a barbarian for my position, I think you're a ****** for yours.

 

Wave your magic wand around and POOF! we're both on the ground in Afghanistan wearing whatever we had on.

Even in my underwear, I stand a better chance as a barbarian than you do as a fully clothed ******.

 

We may both get killed, but it won't be same way.

Of that, I'm sure....

[FirstMeasure]

Ah' date=' the Liberal sees something with [b']The United Nations[/b] on it and takes the bait.

THAT'S who you believe in, that's who you'll follow?

 

Um, if you read that again, you'll see that the definition of torture does NOT include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions.

 

In other words, that does NOT fall under their definition either when acting within lawful sanctions.....

 

You need to ignore the bait and focus more.

 

 

 

Let's get past this round and forget how badly you're losing the argument.

:-)

 

Jumping all the way out to a logical conclusion, let's just say once and for all the we disagree.

You think I'm a barbarian for my position, I think you're a ****** for yours.

 

Wave your magic wand around and POOF! we're both on the ground in Afghanistan wearing whatever we had on.

Even in my underwear, I stand a better chance as a barbarian than you do as a fully clothed ******.

 

We may both get killed, but it won't be same way.

Of that, I'm sure....

OK, so i didn't notice it was the UN's definition.

 

Don't underestimate the abilities of a Man Bred in the Mountains, who's playground was the desert, and doesn't know the meaning of the word "Trail".

 

And I don't think you're a Barbarian. I just think you think being Barbaric is cool. If you had to Waterboard someone I bet you Puke and lose sleep for the rest of you life.

[James Allen]

Misunderstood? Oh, yeah, I get it. If a liberal lies, it's a misunderstanding. IF a conservative lies, they are the devil.

[The Mick]

A liar is a liar plain and simple.

[FirstMeasure]

That's right. And all Liars involved should be held accountable.

[The Mick]

 

 

If I'm a military commander in the field and you tell me I can NOT forcefully interrogate any prisoners I might capture' date=' then I will simply kill them if they don't talk. That's right - point a gun at their head and tell them to talk or meet Allah.

If they don't, then [b']BANG![/b]

Just one more military casualty....

 

 

Under the law that is a prosecutable murder.

 

Not to mention a Sin aren't you a Christian ?

 

Eye'm not going to argue this we all know it will get nowhere. But Eye must point out isn't this a flaw in your morals and religious beliefs ?

 

SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

[The Mick]

bump

[NeoConMan]

No flaw.

War is war.

Big difference.

#6 does not apply in any way here, that's intended for gratuitous power/profit-motivated killing - something I abhor.

 

Mrs. Neo says I have an Old Testament way of thinking.

I take that as a compliment.

 

I think you'll find the Old Testament is full of killing - not politically correct at all.

There's a reason many churches overlook it in their teachings - tends to upset the womenfolk and kiddies.

Same reason you don't show films to Sunday school classes about the making of hamburger despite serving it for lunch.

 

Truth is truth, it's just that some people get squeamish about it.

 

 

Oh, and don't bother using me as a role model for Christianity.

In that realm I'm but a humble student and follower, not a leader.

I have no place at the pulpit, as there are many in the church much wiser than I concerning matters of The Faith.

 

Once we get to the parking lot, then I become an Alpha Male again....

:-)

[The Mick]

Eye just don't see it that way if he's unarmed and captive.

[The Mick]

Once we get to the parking lot' date=' then I become an Alpha Male again....

:-)

[/quote']

 

Thats funny