335 Differences

[3stepbend]

OK...I'm tired of searching for differences on the gibson website...

 

Last night I played a perfect 335 through a Blues Jr. (stock). I never really played a 335 before other than to strum a few chords. I got a good hour with it yesterday, and was just blown away at the tone and versatility, through an average amp. It had the 60's neck and just played beautifully. Really...

 

Problem 1: It's $2800 new + tax(7%)

 

So, I thought I'd look for a used one on ebay, tgp, etc...

 

Problem 2: Those I've found in my price range all seem to vary in finish, pickups, neck profile..what a pain trying to figure out which to bid on.

 

I need a cheat sheet...that breaks down the fundamental differences between the one I played last night and some of the others I'm seeing...example of what I'm talking about:

 

There are three I've seen: A Larry Carlton, a DOT, and one with block inlays. There's just no easy way to know what's what.

 

Can any of you guys point me to a cheat sheet or "comparison" guide?

[eljay]

don't have the cheat sheet, but, as a possibility for you:

 

http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Gibson-ES335-Satin-Finish-Electric-Guitar?sku=517751

 

much less than the $2800 for standard finish. you'd have a brand new axe.

 

i bought the satin red 11 months ago and love it.

 

GC has it too, so there would be a chance to play as input to a decision. best of luck.

[3stepbend]

I'll have to check...same hardware as the one I played? Looks like the same neck profile.

 

side comment: I have to tell ya...every guitar I try at GC is so beat up or poorly set up...last time I was in I tried a PRS Mira...the action was so high if I bent a string my fingers would slide under then next string.

[sok66]

A topic of lengthy discussion, compounded by sometimes contradictory information from Gibson. The confusion seems to be worsened by Gibson's references to "Custom" & "Historic", "VOS", Nashville vs Memphis, etc. This is an absolutely STUPID situation, and Gibson needs to de-muddy the waters for their consumers, as some are being duped into paying premium prices for run of the mill production instruments, thinking they got some kind of "Custom Shop", master built guitar.

 

Some years ago Gibson moved ES335 production out of Nashville to a smaller facility in Memphis. This has led some to believe a "Nashville" guitar is better, therefore it commands a premium. Turns out, all the bodies & necks are made in Memphis, making only the point of assembly different. Gibson seems to think it's worth about $1,500 more if the axe is built in Nashville, even if the guitar is essentially IDENTICAL in spec. to one made in Memphis. Here's what we can deduce at this point in time:

 

- The "standard" ES335s (satin a bit cheaper) have a '61 "slim taper" neck profile, Grover tuning machines and a "Nashville" bridge. These have an "open" wire channel under the bridge pickup, rather than a solid center block like a pre-63.

 

- They make a "fat neck" version of same, with Kluson machine heads and an ABR-1 bridge. These also have an open wire channel.

 

- They took the second variant above and created a "50th Anniversary" model, claiming it was based on " '59 " specs., but with the open wire channel, which is not accurate.

 

- They then created a " '59 Reissue" model that's the same, but with a solid center block. These came in "gloss" or "VOS" (Vintage Original Spec....that is , "aged") finishes.

 

- Then they released a " '59 Historic" model, which is identical to the above, but made in Nashville and selling for about a $1,500 premium. They have just announced at NAMM a " '60 Reissue", which is the same guitar, but apparently they've moved the truss rod hole in the neck to a "more accurate" location.

 

- Then there are the "Block" reissues, which are made in Memphis, essentially the same as a standard, but with a neck profile more like a '63 - '64, with block inlays and an ABR-1 bridge and open wire channel. From this they get the Larry Carlton model, too, in a light honey burst finish.

 

- Compunding all of this, they did a small run of "Eric Clapton" models, purported to be a replica of Slowhand's Cream-era red ES335, selling for around $50,000. (An original is about $25-$30k!)

 

There are tiny detail differences between some of the above, like holly wood headstock veneers on the peg head face, binding thickness, etc. More knowledgeable folks can jump in and add to this, but this is what I can deduce from over two years of trying to sort this out for myself, and I'm a former retailer.

 

In the end, Gibson sells essentially the same guitar in street prices ranging from $2,000 - $50,000, differing only in small detail increments. If this makes any sense to you, I can only refer you to the Fender website where they do the same thing with the Stratocaster. I say all this armed with the experience of being a retail store schlep in the '60s, when the original guitars sold for about $300. Let your conscience be your guide!

[guitarfish]

3step, I'm not sure where you are in NJ, but check out Alto Music in Middletown, NY. They're an hour from northern NJ. I bought my new 335 there a couple months ago, a figured top model, for 2,299. No tax if shipped to NJ. By comparison, MF wanted 3,149 for the same guitar.

[3stepbend]

fish...thanks, great tip. I'm in North Jersey. Middletown isn't too far. I've made longer trips to look at guitars.

 

sok66 - thanks for the detailed response. It's amazing how complicated they make it, and I agree, Fender does the same thing. I actually bought my LP Traditional after playing one and liking the neck and sound. Never even bothered going through the whole comparison thing. btw - it is a really nice sounding guitar, especially through my Swart amp.

[sok66]

No problem, I actually needed to see it laid out myself before I could believe it, lol!

 

Ditto on Alto Music in Middletown. I was a customer of theirs years ago before I moved out of the NY/NJ area. Very customer friendly and knowledgeable folks.

[craigh]

I agree with Alto Music. See Phil in the Voodoo Lounge.

Craig

[charlie brown]

So, Sok66...any differences, in the "Neck Tenon" length (long, medium, short), in the various ES-335 models?

I know that subject comes up, now and again. What have you discovered, in that regard?

 

Thanks,

CB

[lpdeluxe]

The 335 has been through so many permutations that sometimes it seems like no two are alike. Do what I did: find one you like, and buy it, and ignore all the "gee-I-coulda-had" thoughts.

 

CB, I've never seen any information on different tenon joints. I know the early SG is famous for frail attachments at the body, but I'm not aware of any problems with 335s.

 

This is a 2000 Memphis, and I love it:

[charlie brown]

Thanks, LP...I've read, on this very forum, that "ALL" ES-335, 345, 355 have "long" neck tenons. Then, I see

one, that's had the neck pickup removed, and it sure looks like a "short" tenon, to me. But, I suppose that

would depend on how the neck joint is configured, in the first place? I.E. What appears to be a short version,

in a Les Paul or SG, for example, might in fact BE a long version, in the ES models? So...??? That's why I was

asking that.

 

CB

[sok66]

So' date=' Sok66...any differences, in the "Neck Tenon" length (long, medium, short), in the various ES-335 models?

I know that subject comes up, now and again. What have you discovered, in that regard?

 

Thanks,

CB[/quote']

 

I am no expert on the 335s tenon length, but IIRC the only era where neck joints were a consistent problem on them was the early 70s, and I'm not sure what exactly what the issue was. I had a new '72 that went back to Kalamazoo for a neck reset, as it got so loose you could see the cracks open & close. They did a very nice job on it, would have been very hard to tell the neck had been removed & reglued. Problem never re-occured, but the repair shop in Kalamazoo said they'd done quite a few of them.

[sok66]

The 335 has been through so many permutations that sometimes it seems like no two are alike. Do what I did: find one you like' date=' and buy it, and ignore all the "gee-I-coulda-had" thoughts.

 

CB, I've never seen any information on different tenon joints. I know the early SG is famous for frail attachments at the body, but I'm not aware of any problems with 335s.

 

This is a 2000 Memphis, and I love it:

[img']http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p362/lpdeluxe1/FenderDRRIandBand-Master.jpg?t=1268677055[/img]

 

Good advice. Cool 335!

[lpdeluxe]

Good advice. Cool 335!

 

Thanks. It's plain (the guitar, I mean), but I like plain.

 

There are guys who obsess over whether their 335 is laminated with walnut, or poplar, or whatever, and I'm just not that way. After all, I'm not going to take a guitar I otherwise like and re-engineer the neck joint. If it has a faulty one, then the right solution is to go find another guitar that's good. I don't even know if my 335 has the wire channel or not (kinda hope it does, in case I ever have to rewire it -- I did an Epiphone Sheraton II without that feature and I can tell you it was the original all-day sucker).

 

Maybe at some point I'll get curious enough to pull the back pickup and look, but that's not why I bought it.

 

Edit: CB, that sounds dismissive, and wasn't meant that way. I literally mean that I've not seen ANYTHING in print (as opposed to the internet) that mentions the neck joint. I assume that means it's not a problem, whether it's a long or a short one, or whether they're all long or short or whether a short tenon on a 335 is like a long tenon on a solid-body...you get the picture.

[charlie brown]

Thanks. It's plain (the guitar' date=' I mean), but I like plain.

 

There are guys who obsess over whether their 335 is laminated with walnut, or poplar, or whatever, and I'm just not that way. After all, I'm not going to take a guitar I otherwise like and re-engineer the neck joint. If it has a faulty one, then the right solution is to go find another guitar that's good. I don't even know if my 335 has the wire channel or not (kinda hope it does, in case I ever have to rewire it -- I did an Epiphone Sheraton II without that feature and I can tell you it was the original all-day sucker).

 

Maybe at some point I'll get curious enough to pull the back pickup and look, but that's not why I bought it.

 

[b']Edit: CB, that sounds dismissive, and wasn't meant that way. I literally mean that I've not seen ANYTHING in print (as opposed to the internet) that mentions the neck joint. I assume that means it's not a problem, whether it's a long or a short one, or whether they're all long or short or whether a short tenon on a 335 is like a long tenon on a solid-body...you get the picture.

[/b]

 

Oh, I didn't think you were being "dismissive," at all. It's just that Gibson sometimes uses the "long neck tenon"

in it's advertising...to sell the CS stuff, for more money. So, I was wondering, if in fact that was the case, or if ALL

ES models, have that, and always have? I know they did change the sustain block, and only some of the "Historic's"

have the original style, now incorporated again, into their construction. Anyway...it's more my own curiosity, than

anything. Thanks... ;>)

 

CB

[lpdeluxe]

In Adrian Ingram in The Gibson 335 -- Its History and Players, there's no mention of any change to the tenon. I suspect they are all the same, after watching videos of the 335s being put together -- Gibson has changed the tooling over the years to modify the upper bout shape and the arch (reportedly the "Mickey Mouse ears" were difficult to sand on slack belts without burning through the top veneer) and the center block. An aside: as originally designed, it was maple that fit between two mahogany end blocks with shaped spruce spacers between the block and the top/back. Norlin (wouldn't ya know) tinkered with it, at various times eliminating the mahogany and using a single piece of maple, shortening it (1972-1975) so it ran only from the tailpiece to the end pin, and occasionally eliminating it all together (which, Ingram notes, required reinstatement of the mahogany end blocks). Many of the changes were reversed because they adversely affected the tone.

 

There's a distinction between tooling and jigs: the former determine the body shape and the amount of dish in the upper bouts, for example, while the latter determine structural features that can't be as easily changed.

 

Ingram says nothing about the neck joint, which is consistent with my feeling that changing it would require new jigs, but on the other hand, he says nothing about the notorious narrow nuts of the late '60s. In common with a lot of enthusiast-written books on guitars, there's no index, so he may have mentioned these issues, but I can't believe I would have missed references in the text.

 

So there's the final verdict: maybe, but I don't think so. The "long tenon" may have been a little marketing nudge in memory of the early SG, which had very short tenons, and the warranty returns to prove it.

 

So how's the weather? I was in Lansing for my mother's funeral service in July, and almost fooled myself into thinking I could live there again (I'm from Leavenworth, left when I was 12). Watching weather reports in December disabused me of that notion.

 

Edit: here's a video of the Nashville assembly of 335s: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4764707652331081865# There's a long intro but it's worth it.

[sok66]

Thanks for posting the EC 335 link, I couldn't sit through the whole thing but it's fun to see the old girl disassembled, dissected, etc. It's in just amazing condition given what it's been through. Just think of all the great solos & tunes it rendered. One of my recent favorites: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djRAF_ph3TQ

 

BTW, when he pulls the bridge pickup note the solid center block, not always seen on one that late.

[NeoConMan]

I have a lot of guitars, but I love my 2002 Dot Reissue with 57 Classics.

Perfect, right out of the box.

 

All it's ever had done to it is string changes and the installation of Schaller strap locks.

 

 

 

I wouldn't hesitate to buy a used one off Ebay, they're usually adult-owned and well cared for.

 

Stay away from the satin finishes.

Any money you think you saved up front will be more than lost if you ever wanna sell the guitar.

 

Besides, a classy lady like a 335 needs to shine!

[dponzi]

 

Edit: here's a video of the Nashville assembly of 335s: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4764707652331081865# There's a long intro but it's worth it.

 

Just finished watching this. How cool! It just goes to show you how much work goes into these.

[fubb]

Hi

about to buy what I think is a good '59 anniversary reissue but the implication of this thread is that this is basically the same as a 59 reissue

Should I keep looking for a good version of the cheaper guitar?? there seems to be no advantage in paying more if I can find a good cheaper version. more cost does not mean better buily etc?

[lpdeluxe]

Hi

about to buy what I think is a good '59 anniversary reissue but the implication of this thread is that this is basically the same as a 59 reissue

Should I keep looking for a good version of the cheaper guitar?? there seems to be no advantage in paying more if I can find a good cheaper version. more cost does not mean better buily etc?

 

I don't think there's any difference in the build quality. There are subtle differences (some have Klusons, others have Grovers, the crown inlay on the peg head is in the upper third on some, on the lower third on others), but "average build quality" means nothing if you only buy guitars that meet your standards -- which generally means buying one you can play, rather than trusting to the internet.

 

Mine's nothing special -- it's not Historic, it doesn't celebrate any Anniversary, it's not Custom -- except that it's special in the way all 335s are: great looks, great design, great sound. After I got mine it was only a matter of time until I sold my Les Paul.

[clamslapper]

OK...I'm tired of searching for differences on the gibson website...

 

Last night I played a perfect 335 through a Blues Jr. (stock). I never really played a 335 before other than to strum a few chords. I got a good hour with it yesterday, and was just blown away at the tone and versatility, through an average amp. It had the 60's neck and just played beautifully. Really...

 

Problem 1: It's $2800 new + tax(7%)

 

So, I thought I'd look for a used one on ebay, tgp, etc...

 

Problem 2: Those I've found in my price range all seem to vary in finish, pickups, neck profile..what a pain trying to figure out which to bid on.

 

I need a cheat sheet...that breaks down the fundamental differences between the one I played last night and some of the others I'm seeing...example of what I'm talking about:

 

There are three I've seen: A Larry Carlton, a DOT, and one with block inlays. There's just no easy way to know what's what.

 

Can any of you guys point me to a cheat sheet or "comparison" guide?

 

 

One thing you might want to check out, and you'll save an absolute TON of money in the process, is an ES-333. You can get a good used one for under $1K. It's the same exact body as the base-model 335. They are satin-finished, but polish up extremely well, and the finish is very thin and a great proxy for a vintage finish. Best of all, if you like the old cherry 335s ca. 1960 that have the "watermelon fade" going on, a polished cherry 335 can duplicate that look better than any current production 335. The lacquer they use on 333s is just a little bit more orange than the old watermelon-fade guitars, but it's a billion times more vintage-looking than the current bright red cherry 335s. The stock pickups in a 333 are different, so you'll probably want to change those, and put on a pickguard, but even after those changes you've probably saved about $1000!

[clamslapper]

I don't think there's any difference in the build quality. There are subtle differences (some have Klusons, others have Grovers, the crown inlay on the peg head is in the upper third on some, on the lower third on others), but "average build quality" means nothing if you only buy guitars that meet your standards -- which generally means buying one you can play, rather than trusting to the internet.

 

Mine's nothing special -- it's not Historic, it doesn't celebrate any Anniversary, it's not Custom -- except that it's special in the way all 335s are: great looks, great design, great sound. After I got mine it was only a matter of time until I sold my Les Paul.

 

 

 

Build quality seems pretty much the same across the board, I agree. It's somewhat frightening to see the inside of even a Historic 335 because it looks like it was hastily slammed together by a hung over Fred Flintstone -- but they're all that way and they have been for years. If you want shockingly good build quality, get a Tokai. But if you want a great neck shape and tone, get a Gibson (and for the love of God try before you buy because they vary so damn much)!!