Just out of curiosity....

[Jeff-7]

examples please.

 

 

6 months ago the treasurer of our local Catholic church was altering the books and stole over 200 thousand dollars, good enough? Everyone just thought the new home and cars etc. were just because her lawyer husband was doing well. For this area of KS 200 grand is a huge sum of cash.

[tulsaslim]

To paraphrase Groucho "I wouldn't join any organization that would have me as a member".

[cookieman15061]

6 months ago the treasurer of our local Catholic church was altering the books and stole over 200 thousand dollars' date=' good enough? Everyone just thought the new home and cars etc. were just because her lawyer husband was doing well. For this area of KS 200 grand is a huge sum of cash.[/quote']

 

So one instance is more than any other group or organization in your area?

 

To single this one church out and then generalize it to mean churches is a bit presumptuous wouldn't you say.

 

Theft is a common problem in society whether its wall street or walmart.

 

Oh and 200 grand is a huge some every where, just to clarify.

[milod]

"....but in the end, people usually end up corrupting the guidelines to which they are supposed to be adhering. At least that has been the fate of all of the "frameworks" (political, religious, ideological) that I can think of."

 

+++++++++

Yup. That's a problem because we're human. I find it interesting that even the earliest-known "story," the Gilgamesh epic, gets into the same thoughts and is especially critical of one of the religions of the time.

 

Nearly every society we know much about has had not one, but several ways to set up some ideals of behavior and modes of rewarding "good" behavior and dis-rewarding behavior that is destructive to individuals and the group.

 

Groups, whether a larger or smaller society, have certain things we've generally agreed are the basics. You don't murder other members of your group, you don't steal from your group, you act in civil ways, you try to learn more and improve yourself for your own and the group's benefit.

 

Different associations in today's "civil" world are not much different from warrior societies among old-time "native American" tribes, to cite smaller and non-literate groups that ain't really different from the larger culture.

 

Individuals, however, have always revealed themselves as unwilling to follow the ideals of both the larger group and of the smaller ideal-centered specialized groups. That doesn't mean the ideal-centered groups are "wrong," but that human beings are human beings.

 

Warrior societies, religious institutions, civil fraternities are all made up of humans who may not measure up, but still are measured by their own ideals. The question is, without such that we've had throughout history, where are we?

 

m

[cookieman15061]

and the evil intentions of one must nor corrupt the good works of many.

 

In my town 2 women stole over $6000 from a youth organization. With advise from the Sheriffs dept no charges were filed because proving where the monies went would be awfully difficult since everyone claimed innocence, record keeping was shoddy at best and people in charge blindly trusted that no one would rip off the kids.

 

I would not condemn the youth organization and though that years activities had to be scaled back the kids had a great time.

 

I know nothing about the Free Masons, the Shriners, the Lions club or any other club.

I've seen the shows on television talking about the veils of secrecy and secret decoder pins (LOL) frankly its not for me but what you do on your time is your gig.

As long as you're a good neighbor and we deal with each other respectively it's fine by me.

[milod]

"I know nothing about the Free Masons, the Shriners, the Lions club or any other club. I've seen the shows on television talking about the veils of secrecy and secret decoder pins (LOL) frankly its not for me but what you do on your time is your gig. As long as you're a good neighbor and we deal with each other respectively it's fine by me."

 

Cookieman... (I'm grinning as I wrote your "name" 'cuz I have a bad habit of breakfasting on .... cookies.)

 

Anyway, yeah, as I said before, I think there are some generational things on organizations. A lotta U-30s seem to be more joiners than the 35-60 age groups. That seems to be not just in the U.S., but worldwide in the Anglophone world. That's everything from churches to service clubs, etc.

 

The "veils of secrecy" date back, as far as I can tell, to the period prior to the English Civil War in the 1600s when men who felt then, as you do now, were in periods of nasty politics and a likely civil war. In France during WWII, the lessons of secrecy were impressed on that culture thanks to Nazi imprisonment and worse of Masons.

 

I think nowadays some of these outfits, churches to service clubs, are being reinvented by "old" folks and younger folks with about a generation and a half entirely left out for the time being. To me it's kinda an interesting sociological phenomenon, but kinda typical for people...

 

The important thing is exactly as you said: being a good neighbor and dealing respectfully.

 

BTW, there ain't no veil of secrecy for the Masons except something inside people that gives a feeling of fraternity that has lasted more than 300 years. Forget the decoder rings. <grin>

 

m

[tulsaslim]

I'm not a Mason but I can tell you why things were as they were in the distant past. As you know, many of our 'Founding Fathers' in America were Freemasons, and one of the things that Freemasons believed in back then was 'science'. Well, if you believed in 'science' back in the 18th century you faced the possibility of being arrested for Heracy, since the Catholic Church had an extremely powerful role in every European government of the time.

 

Hence, the Freemasons had to study their 'science' in secret. And we can be very grateful to them for insuring that Organized Religion has NO place in the United States Government. I'm sure when the constitution was written all the powerful religious organizations wanted their sanctioned piece of the control pie and we can thank Ben Franklin, Thos. Jefferson, et. al. for keeping them out.

[milod]

Tulsa...

 

Mostly correct. There's no documentation on Jefferson being a member.

 

Franklin was, as was Washington. I find those two really an interesting pair. It appears they weren't "close," but both had great abilities to take things they were interested in and make them "work."

 

Washington, for example, was a far better farmer and "value-added" agriculturalist than he ever got credit for. He did quite well setting stuff up for a long-term government with less in terms of resources than today's small U.S. "State."

 

Franklin invented a musical instrument and a bunch of other stuff including a stove that was very fuel efficient for its time, set up a postal system that actually worked and created what amounts to the first newspaper "franchise" or "group."

 

Interesting folks. Truly.

 

As for Jefferson... I don't think he was that much of a "joiner" in ways. Ditto Adams. Oddly those two one-time political allies, then antagonists, became friends by mail in their old age and died the same day, July 4, 50 years after the signing of the U.S. Declaration of Independence.

 

m

[cookieman15061]

I'm not a Mason but I can tell you why things were as they were in the distant past. As you know' date=' many of our 'Founding Fathers' in America were Freemasons, and one of the things that Freemasons believed in back then was 'science'. Well, if you believed in 'science' back in the 18th century you faced the possibility of being arrested for Heracy, since the Catholic Church had an extremely powerful role in every European government of the time.

 

Hence, the Freemasons had to study their 'science' in secret. And we can be very grateful to them for insuring that Organized Religion has NO place in the United States Government. I'm sure when the constitution was written all the powerful religious organizations wanted their sanctioned piece of the control pie and we can thank Ben Franklin, Thos. Jefferson, et. al. for keeping them out. [/quote']

 

and yet if you read any of their writings God is clearly apart of the decisions they made.

[cookieman15061]

and Milod I know in some bottom draw of an old dresser in the basement you have hidden away a Little Orphan Annie Secret Decoder Ring. Admit it.

[milod]

Naaaah....

 

Never had any sort of decoder ring, although summa them were a big deal when I was a kid.

 

I did have a Captain Video space helmet. I always envied a buddy who had a Captain Video uniform. That's the show that was on the old Dumont television network.

 

All kidding aside, though...

 

One reason I tend to like the lyric on "cowboy" music, old and new, is that it is very, very much a matter of metaphor. One Chris Ledoux song, "Cowboy up" hits that pretty well with a lines:

 

"From business suits to cowboy boots it hurts when you get thrown

"but if your gonna be the best you can you gotta get back on...

"you cowboy up, dust yourself off

"get back in the saddle give it one more try..."

 

It seems to me that most real learning in life comes when you learn something about one thing thanks to a light bulb going off that it's the same as something else - even though it seems completely different on the surface...

 

m

[GIANTRobOT420]

Im a Stonecutter

[Jeff-7]

So one instance is more than any other group or organization in your area?

 

To single this one church out and then generalize it to mean churches is a bit presumptuous wouldn't you say.

 

Theft is a common problem in society whether its wall street or walmart.

 

Oh and 200 grand is a huge some every where' date=' just to clarify.

 

[/quote']

 

 

I'm just stating from what I've seen personally, not generalizing about them throughout the entire society. It's not the first time it's happened at our area churches, that is just the most prominent example.

[yoda]

That is true' date=' but in the end, people usually end up corrupting the guidelines to which they are supposed to be adhering. At least that has been the fate of all of the "frameworks" (political, religious, ideological) that I can think of.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That what you state is the human condition, we are imperfect.... however having a "framework" to live by, or try to live by, or: being aware you should live by, makes us aware of our short comings and gives us something to strive for; a support grou if you will.

[yoda]

I'm not a Mason but I can tell you why things were as they were in the distant past. As you know' date=' many of our 'Founding Fathers' in America were Freemasons, and one of the things that Freemasons believed in back then was 'science'. Well, if you believed in 'science' back in the 18th century you faced the possibility of being arrested for Heracy, since the Catholic Church had an extremely powerful role in every European government of the time.

 

Hence, the Freemasons had to study their 'science' in secret. And we can be very grateful to them for insuring that Organized Religion has NO place in the United States Government. I'm sure when the constitution was written all the powerful religious organizations wanted their sanctioned piece of the control pie and we can thank Ben Franklin, Thos. Jefferson, et. al. for keeping them out. [/quote']

 

 

 

25 of the 50 men who signed the declaration were freemasons; most of the "ideals" set forth in the constitution were "freemasonic" in practice; albeit radical for their times. The Freemasons were "hated" by the governments of the time because they believed in "equality" and that removed power from the governments. As for a Adolf Hitler's hate for Freemasonry, that because he hated secrecy because of the pure fact that it scared him and secrecy meant keeping things from him, nothing could or should be kept from him.

[cookieman15061]

That what you state is the human condition' date=' we are imperfect.... however having a "framework" to live by, or try to live by, or: being aware you should live by, makes us aware of our short comings and gives us something to strive for; a support grou if you will.[/quote']

 

Already got it.

 

Called the Ten Commandments.

 

Cookieman's rules to live by.

[cookieman15061]

As for a Adolf Hitler's hate for Freemasonry' date=' that because he hated secrecy because of the pure fact that it scared him and secrecy meant keeping things from him, nothing could or should be kept from him.[/quote']

 

hmmmmm sounds like a politician who was just ahead of his time.

[cookieman15061]

 

 

 

 

Interesting symbols to say the least.

Anyone care to give an interpretation of what the segmented symbols in the upside down star stand for?

[yoda]

Interesting symbols to say the least.

Anyone care to give an interpretation of what the segmented symbols in the upside down star stand for?

 

 

 

 

 

 

It has 5 isosceles triangles with a pentagon in the middle. Each Star Point represents a heroine of Biblical lore (three from the Old Testament and two from the New) who exemplifies a Feminine Mystery.

[freak show]

That what you state is the human condition' date=' we are imperfect.... however having a "framework" to live by, or try to live by, or: being aware you should live by, makes us aware of our short comings and gives us something to strive for; a support group if you will.[/quote']

 

I agree. That wasn't criticism. I only asked, because the person who had created the list I quoted, appeared to want to indicate that the Freemasons were above things like human nature. You and milod seem to have a more moderate (and realistic) view.

 

But yes, we all need a framework and a goal.

[freak show]

Interesting symbols to say the least.

Anyone care to give an interpretation of what the segmented symbols in the upside down star stand for?

 

I think I see what you're driving at. Yes, Satanism uses that star. And the fact that one must ask a Freemason three times also corresponds to elements of the Satanic tradition.

 

On the other hand: That doesn't necessarily mean that Freemasonry has anything to do with Satanism.

 

Arcane symbols are usually very old and typically have been used by very different groups. For example, the Cross and the Swastika don't "belong" to the Christians or the Nazis. Others have used these symbols for entirely different purposes.

[yoda]

I think I see what you're driving at. Yes' date=' Satanism uses that star. And the fact that one must ask a Freemason three times also corresponds to elements of the Satanic tradition.

 

On the other hand: That doesn't necessarily mean that Freemasonry has anything to do with Satanism.

 

Arcane symbols are usually very old and typically have been used by very different groups. For example, the Cross and the Swastika don't "belong" to the Christians or the Nazis. Others have used these symbols for entirely different purposes.

 

[/quote']

 

 

Well stated.

[cookieman15061]

I think I see what you're driving at. Yes' date=' Satanism uses that star. And the fact that one must ask a Freemason three times also corresponds to elements of the Satanic tradition.

 

On the other hand: That doesn't necessarily mean that Freemasonry has anything to do with Satanism.

 

Arcane symbols are usually very old and typically have been used by very different groups. For example, the Cross and the Swastika don't "belong" to the Christians or the Nazis. Others have used these symbols for entirely different purposes.

 

[/quote']

 

Nope wasn't driving at anything just curious but thanks for the 2 cents.

 

Love the "doesn't necessarily mean" line.

[RichCI]

25 of the 50 men who signed the declaration were freemasons; most of the "ideals" set forth in the constitution were "freemasonic" in practice; albeit radical for their times. The Freemasons were "hated" by the governments of the time because they believed in "equality" and that removed power from the governments. As for a Adolf Hitler's hate for Freemasonry' date=' that because he hated secrecy because of the pure fact that it scared him and secrecy meant keeping things from him, nothing could or should be kept from him.[/quote']

 

Additionally, I think some people have a difficult time grasping how a group of people from many diverse walks of life, vocations, religions beliefs and political affiliations can meet and work together peacefully. Joining Freemasonry requires that one believes in a supreme being, but places no limits on the which belief system ones subscribes to: Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, and so on; all are welcome. Conversely, the only topics of discussion that are off limits in a Masonic Lodge are politics and religion; those are the two subjects that cause the most disharmony among people. What you care to discuss with other people, including Masons, outside of the Lodge is your own business.

[Artie Owl]

If I was to join a group or order I'd join the Quakers and try to make life better for my fellow human. They don't have preachers