shartom Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 I used a pedal board for the first ime in yeaaaaaars on Friday evening. I was getting some really good sounds, considering it is a Danelectro board with six pedals with names like Tuna Melt, Fish'n Chips etc.. Heads turned when I kicked in the Octave pedal. With all of the pedals switched off, there was a noticible volume loss. Between nymbers I plugged my Tele right into the amp, and "Voila"....French for "son of a B.....h". When I started using the EH pedals, I installed true bypass switches in each one of them. What I need now is a switcher that I can plug both the board and guitar into, and select/deselect the board on the fly. I can build one. The biggest problem is finding the 3PDT switch. The other problem is, I need it for this Friday and Saturday night.....my life won't end without it. There must be some simple commercial units out there. Any comments would be appreciated. TC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWANG Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 why not an A/B switch. MF! *not an insult a store name* morley, and others.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layboomo Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 The Lehle is the caddilac of amp switchers http://www.synergyguitars.com/Lehle-Amp-Switchers.htm . They aren't cheap,but I wouldn't use anything less. The passive switches have little to no isolation and they just don't perform as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-theory Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 You really don't need jack isolation for mere true bypassing. It's almost essential, however, if you're switching between multiple amps, because of the ground loop issue. Cheap 3PDT's are all over the place nowadays. pedalpartsplus.com and effectsconnection.com are but two sources off the top of my bean. There's a decent tutorial on http://www.singlecoil.com/tb-strip/tbstrip.html Personally, I use chrome channel strip that came from an old sliding shower door assembly that I tore apart a few years back, but you can mount jacks and switches in pretty much anything you want to. Meanwhile, cut back on the number of effects in that chain, and you'll decrease the tone suckage. There are undoubtedly a few of those pedals that you could live without for the time being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copper1281734000 Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 You'd need a few things. You'd need an A/B box that came from your guitar to the pedals and amp, then and A/B/Y guitar box to combine them. Diagram would look like this: (---- = cable, / from or to box) .............................------------------ Pedals---------- .........................../............................................../ guitar-----A/B box........................................Guitar A/B/Y box(on Y(both))-------- Amp ........................ /............................................./ .........................------------------------------------ Or you could simply make or buy a true bypass looper. It's just a pedal that has an effects loop in it and you can switch them all on and off with one click. Like this one.Keeley True Bypass Looper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layboomo Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 It's up to you man,but as the saying goes your sound is only as good as the weakest link...and a passive A/B box will prove that theory time and time again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cGil Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 I would definitely agree on that. Yet even with a Kendrick active ABC, it still works better if the signals boosted going into it to reduce the effect of the inherent losses. And there are always losses. Gil... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-theory Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 as the saying goes your sound is only as good as the weakest link...and a passive A/B box will prove that theory time and time again. How so? If all you're doing is pointing signal from one input to another, how is a TRULY passive A/B a weak link? It's no different than moving your guitar cable from one jack to another, except that it's done with a switch a three jacks. even with a Kendrick active ABC, it still works better if the signals boosted going into it to reduce the effect of the inherent losses. Now you're talking buffered signal, which, if it's the right design and assuming there aren't multiple buffers in the signal chain loading up on each other, can definitely be a good thing. I disagree that a simple, passive A/B introduces noticeable signal loss. Yes, there is always SOME loss, but the question is: Do you hear it? I have never heard a discernable signal loss from the passive A/B's that I've built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layboomo Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 You are missing my point...or reading too much into what I said? A passive A/B box does nothing to isolate or buffer the signal so it is prone to ground loops when used to switch between amps or modulation based effects....whereas a buffered loop guards against ground loops and signal loss. You'll rarely if ever see a passive A/B switch on a pro's board....thats my point. A buffered loop is always the better choice. Also in this scenario,as with many others a buffered loop allows you to maintain the same level throughout the signal chain.....so going from effects to no effects won't be a big jump in volume unless that's what you are going for and set it up that way. Bottom line is a passive A/B box just adds resistance and noise potential to the rig IMHO. The only thing attractive about a passive A/B switch is the price....it's just the cheapest way to do it...not the best way. As a side note I used to use a Leslie 145 in my club rig and I wound up building my own buffered relay switcher for my rig after trying A/B boxes ...and to answer one of your questions...Yes a heard a loss with 2 20' stage cords in that rig. On a short little run doing some simple switching an A/B may work for you...but why risk it if your building a custom rig? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-theory Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 You're bringing cable length capacitance into this. It's a completely valid point, and I'm in total agreement with you on the fact that cable loading can and does occur, but this isn't really what we're talking about when we're talking about basic true bypassing on a pedal board. You lay out 40 feet or more of high capacitance cable and try to push a passive signal such as electric guitar through it, and I guarantee that you'll hear a significant tone difference between buffered and unbuffered. The buffer acts as an amplifier to drive that passive signal down the length of the cable, overcoming the detrimental effects of signal loading, caused by cable capacitance. We're talking about using passive true bypassing on a pedal board to switch non-true bypass pedals in and out of the signal chain. That doesn't add appreciable resistance or capacitance, unless you're not really using truely passive A/B switching. Most of the cheaper mass market A/B pedals are NOT passive, and definitely DO suck tone. A truly passive A/B, however, consists of 3 jacks, a few inches of wire, and a switch. The amount of resistance across is is barely even measurable, and I would say the same for capacitance, if I'd had the tool to actually measure that. I've seen SEVERAL pro boards with passive A/B bypassing, btw. True, the price of passive A/B switching is attractive, but that's not the only reason it's attractive on a pedal board, to merely switch effects in and out of a signal chain. Buffered, isolated switching simply isn't necessary in every instance, and it's not necessarily the best choice for every switching application. Signal loading can occur by stacking buffers also. Also, if you've got noise between effects on your board, it's coming from your power supply being non-isolated. You can "fix" that hum by isolating the effects, true, but you're treating the symptom, not the cause. Either solution will solve the problem, but the problem wasn't really created by not having isolated jacks between the effects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-theory Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 For the record, I'm not trying to be conentious here, layboomo. You're a highly respected person amongst this board and others, and I'm not trying to pick a fight with you over this. I just don't agree that simple effects true bypassing requires buffered, isolated outputs, that's all. I'm not suggesting that it's necessarily a bad thing...I'm just saying that it's really not necessary in all cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layboomo Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Yeah that's fair enough...and as you point out it's easy to bring more factors into this discussion as I did. If you look at a big pro rig you almost always find buffered loops even if it's just to switch one effect in or out....is it always necessary...no. Alot of times thats done because the pedals are in a rack drawer and not on the floor...but hey they are pro's with big deep pockets for this stuff. We are pretty much in agreement on the actual capacitance of the components in the box...no arguement there....it's the application where the trouble starts and thats all I was trying to warn against. This is a good link to explore some of the options http://www.amptone.com/switchers.htm . There are sooooo many options from Midi switchers and combinations of buffered and non-buffered solutions that there is really no one size fits all...just some basic concepts to grasp and experiment with. I understand completely and you are making good well supported points...no offense taken at all....and if a simple A/B switch solves the problem with no noise or loss...then by all means...use it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-theory Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 There are sooooo many options from Midi switchers and combinations of buffered and non-buffered solutions that there is really no one size fits all...just some basic concepts to grasp and experiment with. True dat! Btw, there are some pro boards out there that are loaded with Boss pedals, too! I think the dude from Sister Hazel uses almost nothing but, including the "mighty" DS-1, that I personally think sounds like a$$. A buddy of mine recently went to see Robben Ford and Larry Carlton, and Ford's stuff, although minimal, was scattered around the floor rather hapharzadly, to the degree that, at one point, he accidently tipped a pedal over, and had to reach down to right it. When you step into the Cornish-esque world of CMOS switching on the floor for rack-mounted pedal boxes, you definitely have the buffered signal going on, although I believe that there's only one buffer in use, if I recall. I'm certainly no expert on that level by any means, but if you're talking strictly "pro level" pro gear, that would be the pinnacle, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layboomo Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 m-theory the ironic part about this is that I don't like or use many effects myself,although I have a bunch. I actually have 3 boss pedals(all modded) that sound very good...no ds-1 though not a big fan of that one either! Robben Ford and Carlton could play a 2x4 with strings on it and make it sing! 2 of my alltime fav's there A good friend of mine had a bradshaw rig when he was touring heavily and it was a monster of a rig with everything in rack drawers...way over the top stuff but cool! I mean his rack with 5 amp heads and effects was the size of 2 refridgerators side by side! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunghaichuan Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 At the risk of hijacking, I just got a Boss DS-1 from GC for $20, it looks brand new. Based on everything I've read, I wa prepared to hate it and was looking for mods for it. However, it sounds *great* through my BH5H amp. I was shocked. I think I'll just leave it stock. tung Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layboomo Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Hey Tung here is a good link for comparison . I use a Franklin modded sd-1 which is more of a boost than distortion. For that I have a Ruetz modded RAT that sounds KILLER for that marshall in a box type stuff. I always find the non modded boss pedals kinda thin and lifeless compared to the modded pedals. The mods always seem to include high end caps which help smooth out the tones and reduce the noise. Pedal Hacker has some good kit's for the DIY for around $15 each. http://cgi.ebay.com/BOSS-DS-1-DISTORTION-WALL-OF-MARSHALL-STACK-MOD-KIT_W0QQitemZ370030001380QQihZ024QQcategoryZ64417QQcmdZViewItem The keeley mods are way expensive for what they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunghaichuan Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Cool, thanks for the links. Do you know anything about the Monte Allums kits? One guy I know of on another BBS modded his DS-1 pedal and raved about it. Then he sold it, so go figure Monte Allums DS-1 Mod Kits tung Hey Tung here is a good link for comparison . I use a Franklin modded sd-1 which is more of a boost than distortion. For that I have a Ruetz modded RAT that sounds KILLER for that marshall in a box type stuff. I always find the non modded boss pedals kinda thin and lifeless compared to the modded pedals. The mods always seem to include high end caps which help smooth out the tones and reduce the noise. Pedal Hacker has some good kit's for the DIY for around $15 each. http://cgi.ebay.com/BOSS-DS-1-DISTORTION-WALL-OF-MARSHALL-STACK-MOD-KIT_W0QQitemZ370030001380QQihZ024QQcategoryZ64417QQcmdZViewItem The keeley mods are way expensive for what they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strangedogs Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 I gave away a DS-1 - didn't like it - different strokes I guess - I use a Tubescreamer and a Korg AX5G ME Pedal with my VJ - love the chorus, delay, reverb, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layboomo Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Cool' date=' thanks for the links. Do you know anything about the Monte Allums kits? One guy I know of on another BBS modded his DS-1 pedal and raved about it. Then he sold it, so go figure Monte Allums DS-1 Mod Kits tung I don't have much experience with them but they look very similar to the pedal hacker type mods.....and I can tell you that the cap upgrades on my chorus and flanger pedals made a Huge improvement....the flanger actually reminds me of a vintage MXR 117 and thats high praise for a pedal I thought sounded like poop pre-mod! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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