Low action: Set-necks have a big disadvantage

[MarxBros]

 

Mostly that is correct' date=' but it will also change the angle of the "string-bridge" line in relation to the fingerboard line. Under most circumstances it won't make a difference but the OP is talking about getting [b']very[/b] close to the 12th fret here. Raising the nut a couple of thousandths will make a noticeable difference 24.75 inches away at the 12th fret, allowing him some more room to lower the bridge. Remember he is not talking about normally low action, he basically wants the "string-bridge" lint to be parallel to the fingerboard all the way up the neck. That's not going to happen if the nut end is slightly lower. Again sorry if I'm not explaining it the best.

 

- Jay

 

It does not matter how you explain it, you are off base here.

 

You do not shim a nut under any circumstance to adjust action up the fretboard. Once you fret a string the nut height does not come into play.

 

The nut should be cut for optimal 1st fret action, period. And if it's cut too low that it buzzes, you do not shim it, you throw it out and start over. Unless you're a hack repairman that is.

[TWANG]

I'll take some exception to marx on that. It's fairly common to shim a nut and I've never had any loss of tone or volume doing it.

acoustic or electric.

some don't want to spend for a whole new nut, the repair works fine.

You can use just about anything, but a thin piece of wood is best. It's wood underneath there already.

a little elmers, clamp it, ,the wood should be fairly hard and voila. Noone could ever tell it was there if you hide the ends with a little black paint.

assuming your headstock is black.

 

LOTS of things people think are 'hack' jobs are done commonly and to good effect to repair guitars inexpensively, quickly, and to good effect.

The main thing here is to get a tight fit across the nut and across the headstock groove.

You can do a hack job of it, but it works, and it sounds fine and lasts.

 

 

 

TWANG

[Ron G]

Shim a nut if, and only if your neck has a long tenon to compensate for

the loss of sound transfer.

 

This thread is certainly one of the more misinformational ones of late.

[MarxBros]

I'll take some exception to marx on that. It's fairly common to shim a nut TWANG

Of course it's fairly common' date=' there's a lot of hacks out there.

 

And the real point here is you do not shim a nut [b']to adjust action up the fretboard[/b], how the heck is that going to adjust the "action"? Once you fret the note whatever "adjustment" you think you got from shimming the nut vanishes.

[Marcelo1281734115]

I missed a few of the posts above last night while I was sleeping.

 

The way I got 1/32 action on the two guitars was because I set the relief to zero. I found out that as soon as I gave it some relief (ie. nut moving up from the fretboard), the action became higher and I could not lower it by lowering the bridge without getting buzz. I did not experiment with negative relief, mostly because I don't understand how it works. Anyhow, on the the Les Paul, setting the relief to zero gave the lowest possible action also, which was 2/32, or 1/16 for Generation Zero, lol.

 

As for strings, I got used to the Slinkys .009, then the Strat I later bought came with a set of D'addario XL installed, and man, those strings were so stiff, that I had a massive burning feeling in my index finger that night. The next day, I went to the music store and I got Slinkys for the Strat too.

 

I heated the Les Paul at the neck joint with a hair dryer for 10 minutes yesterday and then I loosened the strings and placed about 10 lbs of weight on the neck to force it back down for a few hours until it all cooled off. This afternoon, I tightened the strings, tuned them and the action was very low. I left the guitar alone for 5 minutes and I noticed that the action had increased on its own from the string pressure and the strings had gone flat. The neck has bent upwards once again. I loosened the strings and I am going to wait a weeks to see if the neck wood retains its straightness.

[Just Strum]

I think my first guitar was the last guitar I set by measuring. Personally I could care less about the measurement, I am concerned about feel and performance and a measurement guarantees neither and would very from guitar to guitar.

 

Some people like to say "my action is set at 1/32" or whatever and my response is "who gives a rat's a$$". The measurement is only a guide to get you in the general area, you need to adjust it satisfy your feel for the guitar.

[MarxBros]

I think my first guitar was the last guitar I set by measuring. Personally I could care less about the measurement' date=' I am concerned about feel and performance and a measurement guarantees neither and would very from guitar to guitar.

 

Some people like to say "my action is set at 1/32" or whatever and my response is "who gives a rat's a$$". The measurement is only a guide to get you in the general area, you need to adjust it satisfy your feel for the guitar.[/quote']

 

I have measurements that are my starting baseline, but yeah when all is said and done I set up by feel not measurements.

[bug music]

Of course it's fairly common' date=' there's a lot of hacks out there.

 

And the real point here is you do not shim a nut [b']to adjust action up the fretboard[/b], how the heck is that going to adjust the "action"? Once you fret the note whatever "adjustment" you think you got from shimming the nut vanishes.

 

Call it what you want, it's all about getting results. Sometimes you have to make acceptable compromises to get the desired result.

 

Case in point where I shimmed a nut - A friend of mine got an old Kay (a speed demon was the model name, I think). He picked it up for $100 as a beater. Buzzed like crazy around the 12th, totally fretted out from the 15th up. Had a Hagstrom bridge with stripped adjusters. I told him I'd try to help him out.

 

The guy wasn't about to spend $200 for a new bridge and another $200 for a refret, he just wanted it to play half descent. No truss rod adjustment either. Since most the fret wear was on the first 5 frets, and the 12th up were all virgin frets, I was able to level the upper frets to the worst ones, and dress some fallaway on the last few frets. Played pretty descent, but still buzzed around the 12th. Remember the bridge was not adjustable at this point (stripped and frozen adjusters). The nut was cut decently, (and not buzzing on the open strings) a small shim of the nut brought the action at the 1st fret up to about 1/64th (factory specs on Epiphones, BTW), and bought me about another 64th at the 12th fret. It was enough to reduce the buzzing to acceptable levels.

 

Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do, the guy was thrilled that it played decently, and it didn't cost him a dime extra.

Hack is such an ugly word, I prefer to think of it as "Kamikazie Lutherie" LOL :).

- Jay

[Just Strum]

 

I have measurements that are my starting baseline' date=' but yeah when all is said and done I set up by feel not measurements.[/quote']

 

Oh, I agree with the starting baseline or it would take one forever or at least longer.

[Just Strum]

In dealing with acoustics, I was never one to shim. If it didn't fit, I started with another saddle (never had to replace a nut or felt the need).

 

I shimmed the neck of a Peavey Tele once and that was about it. I stuck a 0.30mm pick between neck and body to get rid of some buzzing on the 14th thru 16th frets.

[Guest alanhindle]

 

Call it what you want' date=' it's all about getting results. Sometimes you have to make acceptable compromises to get the desired result.

 

Case in point where I shimmed a nut - A friend of mine got an old Kay (a speed demon was the model name, I think). He picked it up for $100 as a beater. Buzzed like crazy around the 12th, totally fretted out from the 15th up. Had a Hagstrom bridge with stripped adjusters. I told him I'd try to help him out.

 

The guy wasn't about to spend $200 for a new bridge and another $200 for a refret, he just wanted it to play half descent. No truss rod adjustment either. Since most the fret wear was on the first 5 frets, and the 12th up were all virgin frets, I was able to level the upper frets to the worst ones, and dress some fallaway on the last few frets. Played pretty descent, but still buzzed around the 12th. Remember the bridge was not adjustable at this point (stripped and frozen adjusters). The nut was cut decently, (and not buzzing on the open strings) a small shim of the nut brought the action at the 1st fret [b']up to about 1/64th[/b] (factory specs on Epiphones, BTW), and bought me about another 64th at the 12th fret. It was enough to reduce the buzzing to acceptable levels.

 

Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do, the guy was thrilled that it played decently, and it didn't cost him a dime extra.

Hack is such an ugly word, I prefer to think of it as "Kamikazie Lutherie" LOL .

- Jay

 

I wish I had your knowledge and skills Jay. Are you a professional tech?

[bug music]

 

I wish I had your knowledge and skills Jay. Are you a professional tech?

 

Back in the 70's when I was in high school and my for first 2 yrs. in college' date=' I worked in the local music shop. Mostly doing setups, minor repairs and generally helping out. I work now mostly for barter... beer, tips and the occasional pieces of gear. I end up doing most of the basic work for all my friends, family, and guys I've played with over the years.

 

Truth be told, I never went to school for anything resembling guitar repair, and yes (as some have said) [b']I may truly be a hack[/b] , but people seem to be happy with the results (and price) and they keep coming back. So what can I say.

 

- Jay

[Steven Lister]

I heated the Les Paul at the neck joint with a hair dryer for 10 minutes yesterday and then I loosened the strings and placed about 10 lbs of weight on the neck to force it back down for a few hours until it all cooled off. This afternoon' date=' I tightened the strings, tuned them and the action was very low. I left the guitar alone for 5 minutes and I noticed that the action had increased on its own from the string pressure and the strings had gone flat. The neck has bent upwards once again.[/quote']

Kiln dried wood is kiln dried for a reason = to have "memory" of its shape. These kind of shade-tree antics risk damaging a perfectly fine instrument. And for what..., you want an insanely low action on a guitar that by design was not made to give you that..., and you want it not for reasons of better playability but b/c in your words "you're a perfectionist."

Hey it's your guitar so....

 

I'm not trying to be cruel, I'm just saying know the risks and think about what you're doing and why.

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-"

[TWANG]

calm down boys.

I said you can shim a nut.

And you can.

I've never done it for any reason other than the nut slots are cut too deep.

It works. It's not a hack job at all. It causes no problems, and as I clearly said.. only if you don't want to replace the nut entirely.

No sense wasting good bone if you don't have to. And you don't.

A good shim wont hurt it.

 

I've done it with plastic in a pinch. even a piece of matchbook cover, and it didn't make any difference in tone or volume or sustain that

I could tell. But those were jobs done quick just to get a guitar playing until it was fixed proper.

 

I'll stick by what I said. Shimming a nut to raise it for correct height doesn't hurt a thing if you do it well.

 

TWANG

 

TWANG

[Marcelo1281734115]

I hear what you are saying Steve, the tech told me the same thing. The guitar is about 12 years old and he told me that the wood had settled nicely, much better than many old Gibsons he had seen before. He was also puzzled on why I wanted the action to be so low. The worst settling has already happened and the guitar is still very playable, so in a few more years, this guitar will be considered to be a vintage guitar and I don't expect the wood to move any further by then.

 

Anyhow, you are right, this little guitar is a gem and I should not mess it up to get something that is impossible. I will leave the current 2/32 action alone and be satisfied with it. I am finding that 2/32 is not bad action for me if I use Slinkys. And....if I feel like playing "Smoke on the Water", I will just pick up the Strat for this, lol.

[snookelputz]

HEY! Why don't I see someone telling Marcello (who has now loosened his LP neck joint) that part of the reason for the difference in specs btwn F and Gibson is because of the different scale lengths! 25 1/2 vs 24 3/4 -- BIG difference in string tension at the same pitch, right? The strings on the shorter neck have a bigger period of oscillation (I think that's the right term). Anyway, the strings vibrate farther from center on the Gibson. Means there has to be more air between string center and top of the highest fret.

[BlueLesPaul2006]

Really when I set up my guitars I don't give any thought to the measurement I just adjust it to my touch. I don't care about the numbers at all because each guitar is different and the measurement will not be exact from one guitar to another. So I just adjust it to the lowest point that it wont buzz and raise it little by little until my fingers are happy and my LP plays great.

[antwhi2001]

Marcelo, like your tech I am bemused why you want action as low as 1/32, and even more bemused that 2/32 isn't close enough for you. I don't think I'd be able to feel the difference, and it certainly wouldn't affect my playing.

 

I like low-medium action and I can get it plenty low enough on both my Gibson set necks, without any buzzing or rattling.

 

Set necks are not a "big disadvantage" unless you're entering a guitar in a "my action is lower than yours" contest. They don't have many of those in the UK, so I make do with playing music on mine.

[bug music]

Well my hack advise FWIW :P . I seriously doubt the OP will be able to do any serious damage with a hair dryer externally. If you've ever seen someone try to remove a neck joint with a steamer you'd probably agree, those things are in there. As far as hanging 10 lbs., think about it, the strings pull about 100-150 lbs of pressure on the neck so 10 lbs. would pretty much do nothing. My only suggestion to the OP would be buy yourself a Xmas present, get a Plek job, tell the guy what you want, you may be able to get close to the action you want. Then again there are no guarantees. Just my $.02.

 

- Jay

[Goldie]

All these improper fractions are really making me batty' date=' considering my woodworking background. 4/32? Really? How about... 1/8? LOL...

 

[/quote']

 

You mean like 5/4,6/4,8/4,10/4,etc.?

[Marcelo1281734115]

Antwhi, about a couple of months ago, I had the action at 2/32 on the bass and 1/32 on the treble after the tech did a neck adjustment. It was great for about 2 days, then I started getting buzzing on the fifth string and the strings were constantly going flat, the action went up all by itself to 2.5/32 or 3/32 (don't remember which), indicating that the neck gave back the adjustment. I had just bought the LP and I was beginning to suspect that the previous owner sold me a lemon with a collapsed truss rod. I adjusted the truss rod a bit myself and I got the action at 2/32 over all 6 strings without buzz and I left it like that since. The neck held its adjustment this time for about a month now. I figured that if it were possible to get the action to 1/32, then I could give myself some slack by raising the bridge to give me the 2/32 action I need, and it would be less likely that the guitar would start buzzing again on me. I was trying to avoid having to adjust the truss rod ever again.

 

It was after I tinkered with the 2 bolt-on neck guitars since then, that I began asking myself "could an LP do the same low action as the bolt-on guitars?" I guess the answer is clearly "No". Thanks, Snookeputz for you input. This explains why you cannot get the action to be super-low on an LP.

 

As for 1/32 action, I tried it on the bolt-on guitar with a set of .009 Slinkys....it feels weird, like the strings are not even there. There is almost no tension (or feel) on your fingers as you fret and your tend to overcompensate for the lack of string-feel by pressing the string down harder than you have to. So you end up pressing so hard onto the fretboard that you end up with a lot of finger pain after you play. So, right there is one of the drawbacks of having the action too low. I think that the action that would suit me personaly would be somewhere between 1.5/32 and 2/32. I just need to find it.

[rafaelh]

As for 1/32 action' date=' I tried it on the bolt-on guitar with a set of .009 Slinkys....it feels weird, like the strings are not even there. There is almost no tension (or feel) on your fingers as you fret and your tend to overcompensate for the lack of string-feel by pressing the string down harder than you have to. So you end up pressing so hard onto the fretboard that you end up with a lot of finger pain after you play. So, right there is one of the drawbacks of having the action too low. I think that the action that would suit me personaly would be somewhere between 1.5/32 and 2/32. I just need to find it.[/quote']

 

IMO you are getting to many variables in the mix here....maybe that's not coming out right.

 

If it feels like the strings arent there, the gauge might be to small for you. Or, and most likely, the fret size. Vintage frets to me feel the same way...like I'm just pressing on the board. Med jumbos or jumbos work best for me. Nothing to do with the action being to low or whether it's a set or bolt on neck....at least with my case. Might be the same with you?

[Marcelo1281734115]

I need to try the next size up. I now have all 3 guitars on .009 Slinkys. Someone suggested these strings as we were getting started on the guitar and we would avoid sore fingers until we developed our finger strength.

 

I tried the D'Addarios that came with one of the guitars I bought and these strings gave me a burning pain the first day, so I changed them a day later. The kids and I are not reay for D'Addarios yet.

[MarxBros]

I need to try the next size up. I now have all 3 guitars on .009 Slinkys. Someone suggested these strings as we were getting started on the guitar and we would avoid sore fingers until we developed our finger strength.

 

I tried the D'Addarios that came with one of the guitars I bought and these strings gave me a burning pain the first day' date=' so I changed them a day later. The kids and I are not reay for D'Addarios yet.[/quote']I take it you probably wouldn't like the .013-.056 D'Aquisto Electric Guitar Jazz Nickel set I have on my jazz electric guitar. WIMP! To say nothing of the D'Angelico .014 - .060 I have on my 1939 Gibson archtop. HUGE tone.

 

I've found thin stings sound like crap and once you get used to bending a bit heavier and try thin again they are a joke basically. I use .011's as my lightest on solid body guitars.

[rafaelh]

I need to try the next size up. I now have all 3 guitars on .009 Slinkys. Someone suggested these strings as we were getting started on the guitar and we would avoid sore fingers until we developed our finger strength.

 

And IMO they where correct. However just because you are a beginner doesn't mean you necessarily have weak fingers....just clumsy ones. Sorry about the clumsy thing...but it is true.

 

I tried the D'Addarios that came with one of the guitars I bought and these strings gave me a burning pain the first day' date=' so I changed them a day later. The kids and I are not reay for D'Addarios yet.[/quote']

 

I'm not sure about different name brand strings are the cause of your pain. More than likely using your fingers in ways you never have before. You will get a burning sensation in your hands when you over work them at first...time to back off and take a break.

 

LOL...some of the old fart students I get try to speed up the learning process of lost time by doubling up and just end up with sore fingers. BTW and FWIW, and just to clarify, but I'm not a teacher. Just a guitar player that got rope-a-dope into teaching some folks.

 

Also I'd quit bouncing around between the 3 guitars you have and stick to the one you like the best to learn on for now. You have 3 totally different guitars with totally different feels....plus those two beaters you bought I dare say might need fret work or who knows what else.

 

Anyhow If I misunderstood about you being a beginner, than disregard my opinons, or suggestions, above...LOL. And don't get hung up on the bigger strings being better BS. Use what makes you play and happy...hell If I could I'd run nylon strings on my electrics.