les paul stanard stock pick ups muddy

[dikybird]

Hi

 

apologies in advance if im being a noob

 

I have an Epiphone les paul standard and a Peavey classic 30 amp

 

I find the tone is muddy and bassy even when playing with the treble pick up and very much so in the other 2 positions

 

if i turn the bass to 0, and middle and treble to 12 there is some improvement but surely thats not right?

 

will replacing the stock pick ups really make such a difference?

 

will replacing the wiring help this do you think?

 

I can try and record the sound on various settings if anyones interested in analysing it

 

any suggestions much appreciated

 

thanks

[brad1]

Welcome to the forum.

Yes new pups can make a significant difference in what you hear.

But before you do this perhaps you can try some things out first. Have you adjusted the pickup height yet? The screws on the side can lower or raise the pup. Having it too close, or too far away from the strings can cause the pup to sound poorly. You can also adjust the individual pole pieces as well.

 

You have a very nice amp. Is it brand new? Have you tried plugging other guitars into it? Does it sound the same? Perhaps the amp has some problem.

 

And you are sure that the tone knobs on the LP are turned all the way, clockwise?

 

Hope I may have helped. :)

[RaSTuS]

Hi dikybird, welcome to the forums.

 

If your planning on upgrades, go with the obvious and cheapest options first, and build up until you find the sound that you like.

 

Replace the nut with a Graphtech Tusq XL, and put a decent set of strings on it. Then if you still don't like it, upgrade the pots to CTS pots and the switch and jack to Switchcraft. Still not satisfied, go for the pickup upgrade, I'd recommend GFS pups, great sounding pickups at a reasonable price.

[Fringe Lunatic]

Yeah, I just replaced my jack with a Switchcraft unit and my guitar now sounds awesome! I also use Extenze, and you wouldn't believe how much longer my you-know-what got.....

 

(sigh)

[AlanH]

Do you mean muddy for a distorted/break up sound?

 

My experience with the stock Epi pups is that they do less well for crunch tones when the amp is set at lower volumes and/or with more pre-amp gain. Have you tried using the master volume to get most of your break up. On that amp you may well be at a pretty loud volume before you get there.

 

Alan

[RaSTuS]

Yeah, I just replaced my jack with a Switchcraft unit and my guitar now sounds awesome! I also use Extenze, and you wouldn't believe how much longer my you-know-what got.....

Smart arse, the jack upgrade was only mentioned as part of a complete overhaul of the electronics, including the pots (and by association, the caps), not in isolation as you've portrayed it. Upgrading the electronics from the crap that Epi supplies, makes a huge difference.

 

Your not from Oz are you, you bear a striking resemblence to someone I know from Melbourne?

[strat-o-steve]

I had one of those discontinued Epiphone Nighthawks with the Bill Lawrence pickups. Beautiful and great playing guitar, but it always sounded muddy. Since it had a mini humbucker and some weird angled humbucker, pickup replacement would not yield too many options. I sold the guitar because it broke my heart that no matter how I adjusted that guitar or amp, it never sounded good. But you have a Les Paul, and the pickup choices available are mind-boggling. Check your pickup height, as stated above, then try your guitar on another amp, and see if it still sounds muddy with another amp. If the guitar's sound doesn't suit you, then you have to decide how much you like the rest of the guitar. If other than the sound, this guitar would be your dream axe, then pay to upgrade the electronics and pickups. If the guitar is just average to you, sell / trade it towards something you like better! :) Life's too short to play a guitar you don't like!

[Fringe Lunatic]

Smart arse, the jack upgrade was only mentioned as part of a complete overhaul of the electronics, including the pots (and by association, the caps), not in isolation as you've portrayed it. Upgrading the electronics from the crap that Epi supplies, makes a huge difference.

 

Your not from Oz are you, you bear a striking resemblence to someone I know from Melbourne?

No, I'm not from Melbourne, and I see no reason for name-calling. I simply happen to disagree with you about the electronics "upgrade" making a huge difference, although I'm sure you believe it's so. And although you believe it, I don't think it's particularly good advice for a self-described newbie. The real-world possibilities are endless - maybe his LP sounds muddy simply because he's been playing a Strat before. ......

 

When I read dubious claims, I think of this:

 

http://consumerist.com/2008/03/do-coat-hangers-sound-as-good-monster-cables.html

[RaSTuS]

No, I'm not from Melbourne, and I see no reason for name-calling. I simply happen to disagree with you about the electronics "upgrade" making a huge difference, although I'm sure you believe it's so. And although you believe it, I don't think it's particularly good advice for a self-described newbie. The real-world possibilities are endless - maybe his LP sounds muddy simply because he's been playing a Strat before. ......

I wasn't name calling, it was a tongue in cheeck jibe, nothing more, nothing less, you're obviously not used to talking to Australians, it's not considered offensive in any way to call someone a smart arse, some consider it a compliment.

 

dikybird said in his OP that he was considering upgrading the pickups, it's much less expensive to upgrade the electronics first, if you read my post properly I laid out an upgrade path that was based on financial considerations and ease of implementation. Just because you don't believe that the nut/pots/caps/wires/switch/jack Kool-Aid is beneficial (btw, you're the only one I've seen on this forum that believes this), you don't have to push it down eveyone elses throats constantly.

[Fringe Lunatic]

I didn't say it's not beneficial; I said I don't think it makes a "huge difference". Thus, IMO, the OP doing it won't change the overall sound of his current rig. Replacing the horrid HOTCH bridge pickup would certainly do a heck of a lot more, but I wouldn't suggest that as a starting point, either.

[RaSTuS]

I didn't say it's not beneficial; I said I don't think it makes a "huge difference". Thus, IMO, the OP doing it won't change the overall sound of his current rig.

I didn't say it would make a HUGE difference either, but it will make noticeable difference and it will change the sound, giving greater clarification and definition.

 

Replacing the horrid HOTCH bridge pickup would certainly do a heck of a lot more, but I wouldn't suggest that as a starting point, either.

Then what would you suggest, you haven't made one propper recommendation thus far, you only seem interested in trying to assassinate the ideas of others without actually saying anything of substance. Help the OP out by voicing an actual helpful suggestion and stop trying to find fault with others who are trying to offer such suggestions.

[Fringe Lunatic]

Other members had already made sound (no pun intended) recommendations, such as trying the guitar in other amps, adjusting the pickup heights, and even to reconsider the entire guitar itself, so there wasn't anything I felt needed to be added. To recommend a bunch of mods as a starting point does not assist the OP in more accurately (for him) determining what is "wrong" and what to do about it. Your "assassination" characterization appears to be an extreme overreaction to a simple disagreement of opinion. Check your ego at the door, Junior.

 

The newbies deserve to be encouraged to become fully knowledgeable about mods, instead of blindly replacing stuff on somebody's very subjective word.

[AlanH]

Steady on guys................I think you've both made some very good points. We all have different experiences in our quest for tone.

 

For me, I've never done the rewiring thing so I can't comment on how much effect it has. However, I have replaced pups in both of my Epi LPs now and have noticed striking differences, even with my low end valve amp (see the youtube vid in my signature). However, I tend to go for aftermarket pups with more clarity and high end bite, so its probably no wonder.

 

IMO, you may not notice as much difference with a pup swap if:

-You play with virtually no gain

-You hardly every crank up the power tubes

-You choose pups which are not known for their bite/clarity

 

Another thing I've also noticed is that you get a lot more range/responsiveness from the stock pots when the amp master volume is up and/or the powertubes are breaking up.

 

So, if you like rock or metal, you can't afford to spend loads on a new amp or you use a lot of effects/solid state then switching to a pup with more clarity may well make a lot of difference and can be the cheapest way of doing so.

 

That's just my experience based on the music I play, the gear I use and the mods I've done.

 

Alan

[AlanH]

I had one of those discontinued Epiphone Nighthawks with the Bill Lawrence pickups. Beautiful and great playing guitar, but it always sounded muddy. Since it had a mini humbucker and some weird angled humbucker, pickup replacement would not yield too many options. I sold the guitar because it broke my heart that no matter how I adjusted that guitar or amp, it never sounded good. But you have a Les Paul, and the pickup choices available are mind-boggling. Check your pickup height, as stated above, then try your guitar on another amp, and see if it still sounds muddy with another amp. If the guitar's sound doesn't suit you, then you have to decide how much you like the rest of the guitar. If other than the sound, this guitar would be your dream axe, then pay to upgrade the electronics and pickups. If the guitar is just average to you, sell / trade it towards something you like better! :) Life's too short to play a guitar you don't like!

 

 

IMO, this is really really good advice when considering upgrades to guitars of the Epi price point.

[RaSTuS]

Yeah, I just replaced my jack with a Switchcraft unit and my guitar now sounds awesome! I also use Extenze, and you wouldn't believe how much longer my you-know-what got.....

 

(sigh)

It was this wise crack that started this whole thing off, it wasn't phrased as a difference of opinion, it was phrased as complete and utter snipe and put down of my opinion and advice. If you have a better opinion, state it, just because someone else may have already done so, wouldn't it be more constructive to support their opinion rather than snipe someone elses.

 

Other members had already made sound (no pun intended) recommendations, such as trying the guitar in other amps, adjusting the pickup heights, and even to reconsider the entire guitar itself, so there wasn't anything I felt needed to be added. To recommend a bunch of mods as a starting point does not assist the OP in more accurately (for him) determining what is "wrong" and what to do about it. Your "assassination" characterization appears to be an extreme overreaction to a simple disagreement of opinion. Check your ego at the door, Junior.

 

The newbies deserve to be encouraged to become fully knowledgeable about mods, instead of blindly replacing stuff on somebody's very subjective word.

Reinforcing the opinions you agree with (just about every member does this to help bolster that opinion) would better serve the OP (there's weight in numbers), this wasn't a disagreement of opinion, it was the manner in which you tried to make your point by taking part of my post, out of context, and putting a negative spin on it. I have no ego issues, you should look in the mirror sunshine.

 

Since you've been a member on this forum, you have not started a Topic, you have not given any concrete advice to anyone, you have only tried to find fault with others, your membership has been nothing but a negative influence in this place, think positive for a change.

[Fringe Lunatic]

Dealing with children is so much fun......not.

 

Your blanket statements about me and guitars serve only yourself.

[Jeff Summers]

My noob experience with tone mods - I have a variety of guitars including a Mexican Strat and a Dot. I had problems with hum in some venues with the Strat, particularly those with ceiling fans. I opted to change to the SCN (Samarium Cobalt Noiseless) pickups. Got rid of the hum, made the tone a bit sharp and harsh compared to the originals but fixable with rolling off the tone controls some.

 

Next, attention to the Dot. Felt the Dot had trouble cutting through the mix, sounded nice and warm on its own but got thin and lost in the band (I play in a couple bands, most critical is a 9 piece jazz band with horns and sax). Thought of "dropping it out of the rotation" or swapping pickups, and looking for pickup options is how I found this forum.

 

Then I got a Roland JC-120. All of a sudden the Dot pops. Beautiful tone, clarity, presence, with the stock pickups.

 

Bottom line, there are myriad things that affect your tone, ranging from the fingers to the speakers. Probably the best investment I've made to adjust tone is the Dunlop (MXR) 10 band EQ in a pedal.

 

Jeff

[Fringe Lunatic]

So true, Jeff - the amp and effects are so often the bigger part of the equation.

[dfarrell]

You say " if i turn the bass to 0, and middle and treble to 12 there is some improvement " - If you are unable to come close to creating a decent sound , and resorting to using such extreme settings, then something isn't right. Try the guitar through a different amp and see if the sound pleases you better. Try a different guitar ( maybe different types of guitars too, like a Fender) through the amp too.

When you say you are a "newbie", are you new to playing the guitar or are you new to playing Epiphones? If you are new to playing the guitar, I would advise you that it takes time learn how to produce good sound - don't jump into making a bunch of mods right away.

[dikybird]

Hi

 

sorry ive been ex communicado

 

thanks for all the replies I will go through them, try the stuff and report back

 

I will add briefly that I'm not new to playing the guitar, I am new to the Epiphone and decent equipment generally, I'm a tone noob

 

Also I should clarify that the clean channel sounds OK, this is mainly with the post low on the dirty channel

[Fringe Lunatic]

This latest revelation regarding the "muddiness" being perceived only on the high-gain channel vs the clean channel supports my contention about not giving mod advice until all the facts are in. And it also supports my thoughts that the amplifier is the bigger part of the tone equation, and that changing the guitar will not make an unsatisfactory amp any better.

 

Had the OP taken a lot of the prior advice, he would've spent a lot of time and money for absolutely nothing.

[AlanH]

Also I should clarify that the clean channel sounds OK, this is mainly with the post low on the dirty channel

 

Well Diky...........based on what you just said and what I said earlier which was:

 

 

"IMO, you may not notice as much difference with a pup swap if:

-You play with virtually no gain

-You hardly every crank up the power tubes

-You choose pups which are not known for their bite/clarity"

 

......if you get yourself something like SD JB/Jazz set or Gibson 490R/490T this will make a significant difference with the settings you use to get your gain. Your amp is a very good one so no need to change that, IMO.........that would be money down the drain!

 

If you want to spend even less than the pup swap to 'de-muddify' your gain at lower volumes then you could get an EQ pedal (although I believe that you should use these for tweaking tone rather than correcting a primary problem.) You could also experiment with some distortion or overdrive pedals by taking your gear in to a store....that may also sort out the problem.

 

Alan

[dikybird]

Well Diky...........based on what you just said and what I said earlier which was:

 

 

"IMO, you may not notice as much difference with a pup swap if:

-You play with virtually no gain

-You hardly every crank up the power tubes

-You choose pups which are not known for their bite/clarity"

 

......if you get yourself something like SD JB/Jazz set or Gibson 490R/490T this will make a significant difference with the settings you use to get your gain. Your amp is a very good one so no need to change that, IMO.........that would be money down the drain!

 

If you want to spend even less than the pup swap to 'de-muddify' your gain at lower volumes then you could get an EQ pedal (although I believe that you should use these for tweaking tone rather than correcting a primary problem.) You could also experiment with some distortion or overdrive pedals by taking your gear in to a store....that may also sort out the problem.

 

Alan

 

Hi

 

thanks again for the info

 

Ok, I'm seriously considering replacing the stock pick ups with the SD JB/Jazz set

 

I was considering doing that myself although a quick peek at the wiring was enough to put me off (it looks like a real headache compared to the diagram below)

 

so now im considering replacing the pick ups and the wiring (or getting it all done professionally?)

 

is that going to be a difficult job?

 

am i correct in saying that if i buy a wiring kit like this:

 

http://www.guitarpartsshop.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?REFPAGE=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2eguitarpartsshop%2eco%2euk%2facatalog%2fSeymour%2dDuncan%2d%2dHot%2dRodded%2dHumbucker%2dSet%2ehtml&WD=wiring%20kit&PN=Les%2dPaul%2dType%2dWiring%2dKit%2d%2d%2dLong%2dShaft%2dPots%2ehtml%23a275#a275

 

and the pick ups:

 

http://www.guitarpartsshop.co.uk/acatalog/Seymour-Duncan--Hot-Rodded-Humbucker-Set.html

 

and following this (with a soldering iron):

 

http://www.seymourduncan.com/pdfs/support/schematics/2h_2v_2t_3w.pdf

 

 

I could replace all the existing wiring and the pick ups?

[AlanH]

Swapping just the pickups is fairly straightforward, even if you have very limited soldering skills like me.

 

These links may help withyou for a pup change:

 

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/document?doc_id=100119

 

 

 

Doing the complete rewire would, IMO, require at least reasonable soldering skills......

 

....I've personally had dramatic results by just replacing with the JB/Jazz and not re-wiring - see my youtube video:

 

 

 

So, if you're going for pups with clarity, I'd personally try swapping these first and only think about the re-wire if you're still not happy (which I doubt.)

 

BTW, If you like hard rock/metal/pop or Jazz genres the JB/Jazz set would be ideal for you but if you're more of a rock/blues type man you might be better with PAF style pups. The Gibson 490R/490T I suggested above have a lot of high end/mid range bite so they're not 'muddy' but they are more articulate. While the 490s are not hot like the JB they still take any high gain you throw at them with ease. Both sets of pups can be had for a great price too!

 

Another idea if you want to stick with Duncans- you could get a JB bridge and a '59 neck (another popular pairing.) However, you'd have to buy them separately as they don't come in a set; so they may cost a little more but you could well have the best of both worlds. I love this pairing in my Charvel.....Searing leads or tight crunch tones on the bridge; and then creamy, responsive blues tones on the neck.

 

Best of luck! Let us know how you get on.

 

Alan

[RSDx]

Just to throw my hat into the ring, the best "upgrade" I did for my Epi LP tone (and not really a guitar upgrade, as it's got stock parts, still) was investing, what, $29? in a Danelectro cheapo Fish & Chips 7 band Eq pedal..... gives you that much wider range of adjustment of the sonic spectrum, and has served me well.... makes my humble Epi VJr sound right nice,to my old-person ears...heh.