Mountain Bob Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I've been playing for 50+ years, and a failing middle-joint on my fret-hand index finger is forcing me to learn to play slide-style. As a lifetime fingerpicker, I'm determined to set up my dedicated-slide guitar so I can fret behind the slide, somewhat in the style of Sonny Landreth. The only way I can do that and wear the slide on my index finger is to play the guitar lap-style -- so the style morphs into "Sonny Landreth <meets> Thumbs Carllile <meets> Jeff Healey." And THAT means it ain't gonna be a two-week transition, learning that "new" style. That style does require a dedicated guitar, set up specifically as an experimental “learner” guitar. Obviously there’s NO WAY I’m going to convert my ultra-smooth ’68 ES335TD to that experiment; besides, the neck width and fingerboard radius of that ES335 are all wrong for lap-slide playing. Here are my requirements for that “experimental-learner” project-guitar needs: > Inexpensive / low-priced, if possible (If I get good at this style, I can always trade up. If not ... well, I doubt there’s much of a market for a guitar set up specifically for such an uncommon style of playing.) > Solid-body electric (Best profile for lap-style: sits low & flat across your thighs, and doesn’t have an acoustic’s wide lower bout, which pushes the bridge far, far away from the player) > Wide, flat-radius fingerboard (A must for really clean fingerpicking & string muting) > Sturdy construction (“bulletproof”?) (Lots of string tension with the medium-high 13-56 set.) > Decent non-electric hardware (tuners, bridge, etc.) (For a learner-experimental project, I don’t what to have to plow unnecessary $$ into bits & pieces.) Of course the market has any number of really perfect guitars for this use. They mostly start at $1000 and up (street price). Thing is, if my ailing finger gets worse fast, or if I find the learning curve too steep, I don’t want to have $1500 or more in an “experimental” guitar that I'd have to convert back to conventional playing -- before I could reasonably sell it. What about the Epiphone "Les Paul Special" model, the one with an MSRP of around $280 (street = $170) ?? It looks to be decently made, with a 1-11/16" nut width, 24-3/4" scale, and a claimed fingerboard radius of 14", and doesn’t have the el-cheapo whammy bar of the “GT-II” model. Is the body/neck/non-electronic hardware of those lower-end Epi-LP’s decent -- that is, up to mid-/upper-line Epi LP standards? On a practice guitar, pickups and such can be lived with until they demand to be changed, but warping necks, inferior neck-set joints, and the like can quickly turn an inexpensive guitar into an overpriced, costly-fix piece of junk. I know that today's Gibsons don't seem to have the rock-solid build quality of those of the 50's and 60's, but they are still sturdy. What about the Epiphone solid body models, particularly the lower-end LP models? Bad choice? Good for my particular needs? Cast-iron sturdy, but sounds like an anvil? What? Thanks in advance! Mountain Bob North Idaho, USA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluelake07 Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Have a look at the Peavey Powerslide (around $200). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Bob Posted February 20, 2011 Author Share Posted February 20, 2011 Have a look at the Peavey Powerslide (around $200). Wow ! That just might be the ugliest guitar I've ever seen -- maybe what we'd have seen years earlier if Jerry Douglas had been a huge KISS fan! I'll never say "never", but if it doesn't sound one heckuva lot better than it looks, I'm not too encouraged by that one. The price is fine, and it's certainly innovative. I guess I'm concerned that it might be functionally limited to a true "lap-steel" sound, with all the slidey-whiney tones that name implies. My preferred music is a "clean" sound -- even my blues of choice isn't very electric-dirty. The sound I'm trying to capture is the sort where the slide's "slidey" sound is mostly at a minimum, and the music itself is the front-row "sound." I'm really only moving to slide because of that ailing finger: a slide still lets me barre with my index finger, and with a slide on it I can use that finger to produce one or more notes, rather than just declaring it a "goner" and continuing with conventional playing, fretting with only the remaining three fingers. (Of course having that nice rigid glass "splint" on that finger goes a really long 'ways toward keeping me from forgetting I'm joint-crippled, and reflexively grabbing a chord that'll leave me gasping in pain!) Of course the "slidey-ness" is tied to the player's skills. I'm hoping that I can develop my chops enough to let me use the slide as both a "clean-note-fretter" AND a slide-sound-specific tonal tool. The switchable twin (or triple) pickups of a "real" guitar are likely going to get me closer to a song-specific "sound" -- whereas that Peavey's single bridge-kissing HBucker is likely going to lock you into a pretty-much single "sound." In any case: thanks for that suggestion. I'd sure like to play with a Powerslide for a bit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amx05462 Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 i like a danelectro dc for slide. as to the cheapo epi. there low end stuff is only good for firewood in my opinion. id go with a better set neck one. maybe with p90s. wildkat is a good slider too. theres a few on ebay and some at reasonable prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougefresh91 Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I have an older '04 epi sg that I won on ebay for $200. It has some dings but the quality and sound are amazing. Last weekend I bought a Goth g-400 for $299--not amazing. Didn't sound as good didn't play as good didn't feel as good. It was so light I felt like it was made from balsa wood. Returned it friday. This is of course just one persons opinion, but I'd much rather buy a used slightly beat guitar than one of those el cheapos again. I think you should probably check some guitars out in person. The LP's feel more solid than what I had, but who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crust Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I have arthritis in my right index finger my knuckle does not bend "backwards" any longer. As for making an LP special II into a slide type, experimental lap steel guitar. Well, I'd say (and this is only my opinion) that the LP Special II would make a perfect "experimental" lap steel guitar. At one point in time, I did own one (black). I enjoyed it just as much as any of the myriad of guitars I've owned and played over the years. The fret board radius was fine for slide. It is not perfectly flat, but flat enough for me. I tuned mine to open G and open D when I got a case of the "slides". I played it "classical" style (slide blues). Here is a pic of the headstock . Notice that the "special" logo was not silk screened (this was a Guitar Center special), $149.00. I wish I still had it. Oh well. I recently ordered a blue "plus top" one as a replacement. I hope to have it in a few weeks. A blue "flame top" Epiphone LP Special II plus top. Mighty nice for playing electric slide blues, any "style". Headstock Hopefully my new "blues" guitar will be here soon. The 2 small issues I had with "black" is that the high E would break at the saddle after an hour or so of vigerous "bending". I never did put "graphteck" saddles on it. I think that would have helped, better tuners too (I never did change out the original ones, they were OK, the guitar didn't come "untuned" until I played a couple or 4 couple songs). The pickups were fine, but I suppose you could change them out for something better, and a bone nut. I think the "plus tops" are quite beautiful. And the nice thing is, they are only $200.00, a really good "value" for my $$$$. I mean... really, for $200.00 ?? Look at the tops on these, so nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitmore Willy Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I'd much rather buy a used slightly beat guitar than one of those el cheapos again. Reasonable point for consideration. Mountain Bob, Having never tried that which you are about to, please consider my concerns with a grain of salt. A large grain! You mention the 14" radius as opposed to the 12". Although slight inconsistencies do exist, the spec for the special is 12": http://www.epiphone.com/news.asp?NewsID=1930 (scroll to bottom of page) Having been a musician for over 50 years you might be disappointed with the tuners on the Special II. Though adequate for an entry level guitar they are not known for their stellar performance. As to the pickups, they are Epiphone's most basic and of a relatively high K value. Having a preference for a clean sound you may find these somewhat less than ideal. My greater concern is in your choice of strings. There are many great slide guitarist using Gibson style guitars...however... If you are going to raise your action for slide and use 13 - 56 gauge strings you will be putting considerable strain on the neck. The tuning you use may have additional consequences. You might want to consider a guitar that utilizes a dual action truss rod. Epiphone makes no such guitar. Don't get me wrong. I am a Epiphone proponent. I bought a Special II for my grandson. I made a few mods, set it up and he and I are both pleased with the results. On a final "note": Until you determine your ideal setup on whatever your choice turns out to be, you may or may not be interested in something along this line: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Nuts,_saddles/Resonator_nuts,_saddles/Slide_Guitar_Extension_Nut.html I show this only as an example. This one is not made for Epiphone or Gibson spacing. E to E spacing on an Epi is 1 3/8" or 34.7mm. The E to E spacing on a Gibson is 1 7/16" or 36.2"mm. It would be easy enough to make one if you think it might be of value. The advantage being that, with a bit or bottom grinding it would make height experimentation easy. (I would take precautions so as to not mar my headstock or fretboard!) I have also heard of people using small diameter PVC or metal pipe. Once you are sure of your ideal string height you can always have a permanent nut installed. Good luck on your endeavor, Willy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Bob Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 Thanks, Willy. Interestingly -- and I know an online vendor isn't the last word in specification accuracy -- there appear to be several variations in the Epi LP Special models. Though all necks of this model are bolt-on, some show a mahogany neck, others a maple neck. Similarly, some are listed as having a 12" fretboard radius, and others are listed at 14". Since I haven't properly updated the software on my handy-dandy Pocket Fretboard Radius Meter ( ), I suspect that I'll have to rely on eyeball and "feel" to decide if the one I look at is flat enough for my needs. And you nailed it with your string tension observations. That's my big concern about this particular "class" of guitars: when corners are cut to keep entry level costs down, it's likely that in a market segment (young beginners, mostly) where "slinky" strings and "thrash" sounds are the de facto standard, pickups with good individual string definition and necks with strong assembly joints aren't likely to be a priority. I guess it becomes the ol' leap frog game: without a new-guitar replacement warranty, the cheap "used" price becomes a liability. But if you're gonna pay "street"/new at maybe $280 ... well, hmmm -- how much more guitar might you get at $280 Used? But then ... and so it goes. Reminds me why with few exceptions I've always bought quality music gear. Thanks, too, for the Stew-Mac link. I actually put an "extension nut" on an old Epiphone dreadnought that was collecting closet dust, just to try out the whole lap/slide/open-tunings thing. Still have it set up that way, though the "old" and "acoustic" part dictated Med-Light strings. It's my "real Dobro" practice guitar -- but with the strings a good 3/8" above the frets, there ain't gonna be any fretting on that neck. (If the tension doesn't kill your fingertips, the stretch-"bent" strings' stinko pitch shift will sure kill your ears!) So the quest continues. And btw -- Ibanez has some decent strat-style guitars with 400mm and 430mm necks in their "Prestige" lines -- but at about the same "street" price of the Prestige models, there sits the simply gorgeous Godin Summit CT, a beautifully made LP-style guitar with a 16"-radius ebony fingerboard, a pair of Seymour-Duncan HB's, and some interesting electronics. Guess I'll have to build my fortune playing Delta blues ( maybe call myself "Cab-Les" ?? ) and wait 'til I can spare the $1000 for that beauty. Saaaay -- any of you guys want a gorgeous flat-black '91 F250 "beater" ? First, um ..., $1000 takes it !! [thumbup] Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Bob... You might just wanna tape a cupla fingers together. Django did okay with two fingers. So... do the electric, very low action and very light strings and see what happens that way? At one point in time I did a bunch of open tuning stuff that wasn't steel/slide, but allowed some alternate sorts of fingerings - and that might be something to consider too. But then, I don't know how bad the arthritis is. Mine seems to vary year to year and I'm kinda "in remission" right now. Winter seems to make it a bit worse usually. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damian Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I am truly sorry about your finger health...and, welcome to the forums..I'll keep my response short..IMO the Epi Lp Special is a decent modding platform..The pickups aren't very good at all when compared to "real" pickups, but you know all this...I suggest buying a used Epi LP Special, modding it, and using those results to determine if a new Epi LP Special will work for you the way you need...If you wish, keep us updated as well...It will help us learn, and as you encounter any problems etc., we can offer possible solutions.....Regards, Damian.................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amx05462 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 http://cgi.ebay.com/RECORDING-KING-SUNBURST-LAP-STEEL-GUITAR-W-SLIDE-SALE-/220729911733?pt=Guitar&hash=item33648729b5 just another idea in the price range all ready to go. p90 emg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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