Theory - All levels, We can All Learn Something.

[mcmurray]

So I know there are a lot of people lurking on here because I doubt that the 4 or 5 of us that are contributing have racked up over 2500 views.

 

So Can Someone besides Stein or RCT, ZIG ZAG etc... Answer this question???

 

How can you be playing in a major or minor KEY and not play a single major or minor Chord?

 

 

Andy

 

Chord progressions are nothing more than multiple single note melodies played simultaneously, i.e. they are an advanced case.

 

The simplest case is a lone single note melody with an implied tonic. For example, the tune "happy birthday" does not require a chordal backing track to be played while people sing it, but it is still very much a major key tune due to the intervallic relationship between each note of the scale. By intervallic relationship I'm referring to WWHWWWH.

 

Chords are by no means necessary to define a key. There are thousands, if not millions, of examples of this in western music.

[Duende]

I will give you some hints ( that are also easy and good things to remember): by the way I'm not screaming with Caps, bolds and colors just making points that need to be extremely clear.

 

Hi Andy

 

Just a few quick things to add (if they haven't been already)

Point of reference; roman numerals in harmony such as I, IV and V refer to the degrees of the key. So in the key of C if I write IV, I am referring to an F chord as it is the forth note you count up from C

 

1.

 

The majority of rock/pop songs are written using primary triads; primary triads are the chords I, IV and V of the respective key. The more adventurous songs will use variants; such as relative minors and/or chord substitutes - So to embelish, using the chords C (I), F (IV) and G (V), major, the common progression in the key of C, you may (off the top of my head) have the G chord substituted to the relative minor for example, making it C, F and E minor; this still though would be classed as I, IV and V (the primary triads).

 

2.

 

If a piece is in the relative minor, 99.9 percent of the time, the music will be littered with the leading note of the minor key. By 'leading note' I mean the note just before the home key. So if the piece is in A minor, there will be loads of G sharps. You can recognise these aurally (even with a realtive pitch) as they sound quite tense and have an edge to them. The reason they have these leading notes is because when cadencing (concluding a phrase to temporary or eventual closure) the most common cadence in a minor key is V - I. so in A minor ; E major to A minor is the most commonly used 'cadence'. The leading note just happens to be the third note (the defining note of a major/minor chord) of chord V! So yes, it is a very important note. So If we move to the key of E minor, then we find the D Sharp, the leading note of the key, which as mentioned above is the third note of the keys chord V. In the case of E minor, the fifth chord of the key is B major

 

 

A famous example is Painted Black by the Rolling Stones, in the tab below ,it is fret 4 (D sharp) of the melody (on string two) that gives it that characteristic minor bite and is 'the leading note'

 

E minor B major

 

 

-----0------0-------0--------0-------0--------0-----------0--------0-----------0------------0------------0---------0----------0---------------------

 

-5-----7-------8-------10------8---------7--------5----------5---------4-------------5-----------7-----------5-----------4--------------------------

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

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[Duende]

Andy,

 

This is one of the many grey areas of music harmony, but just very quickly (and not to sound like a smart ***), but two notes played together are an interval and a chord. A chord is two or more notes played simultaneously, so people playing The opening Of Iron Man can relax that they are after all playing power chords LOL (would the majority of people playing Iron Man be bothered about this anyway )

 

But seriously, yes power chords are ambiguous because the third is missing, which gives them the 'power' sound, but their tonality is implied in a band setting as the key of the piece isn't determined by the guitar part alone; but by the sum of the parts as it were. When you hear any chord progression played on power chords, you can usually tell if a minor or major melody would work in conjunction with it.

 

Matt

[mcmurray]

 

If a piece is in the relative minor, 99.9 percent of the time, the music will be littered with the leading note of the minor key. By 'leading note' I mean the note just before the home key. So if the piece is in A minor, there will be loads of G sharps.

 

You've just described harmonic minor, which is used very often in classical music and to an extent in pop music.

 

In rock and metal though, I wouldn't say 99.9% of the time harmonic minor is used. Natural minor and pentatonic minor show up everywhere in these genres with absolutely no hint of a leading note.

[Duende]

You've just described harmonic minor, which is used very often in classical music and to an extent in pop music.

 

In rock and metal though, I wouldn't say 99.9% of the time harmonic minor is used. Natural minor and pentatonic minor show up everywhere in these genres with absolutely no hint of a leading note.

 

I agree with you 100 percent (especially regarding specifically metal) but I am not referring to the tonality of the song specifically i.e harmonic minor, but to the leading note in the sense of it being a part of chord V, which contains the leading note of the key as a part of it's construction. In most songs in minor keys (of all genres) chords V -I will be used as a cadence. It is largely in metal that things get into this grey area, because so much is implied due to the use of fifth chords etc which of course don't contain 3rds, so there goes the leading note! But it is still there in implication.

 

A lot of Sabbath stuff is bluesy vocal lines mixed with a back drop of lots of power chords. Randy Rhoads spoke of the minor leaning of a lot of metal, when he was asked about playing Sabbath stuff and metal in general and how he approached soloing over it.

 

So another grey area, another wall to bang the head against, but it is in these grey areas that is where the learning is (hopefully!! ). I hope people reading the thread realise that there are quite a few areas where there are more than one 'right answer'. And to go back to it, as Bill Clinton I am sure would agree, with music it is the aural experience that is the ultimate.

 

Big rock n roll star I am, I am going to France any minute to play at a wedding, just in case it looks like I have done a strop LMAO.

 

au revoir mon amie!!!!

 

Matt

[mcmurray]

I agree with you 100 percent (especially regarding specifically metal) but I am not referring to the tonality of the song specifically i.e harmonic minor, but to the leading note in the sense of it being a part of chord V, which contains the leading note of the key as a part of it's construction.

 

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

 

Agreed on all points, especially this part;

 

And to go back to it, as Bill Clinton I am sure would agree, with music it is the aural experience that is the ultimate.

[Andy R]

Andy,

 

This is one of the many grey areas of music harmony, but just very quickly (and not to sound like a smart ***), but two notes played together are an interval and a chord. A chord is two or more notes played simultaneously, so people playing The opening Of Iron Man can relax that they are after all playing power chords LOL (would the majority of people playing Iron Man be bothered about this anyway )

 

But seriously, yes power chords are ambiguous because the third is missing, which gives them the 'power' sound, but their tonality is implied in a band setting as the key of the piece isn't determined by the guitar part alone; but by the sum of the parts as it were. When you hear any chord progression played on power chords, you can usually tell if a minor or major melody would work in conjunction with it.

 

Matt

 

Yes I agree a "Dyad chord" ( 2 note) "could be" and has been (in a strict sense of theory) considered as just two notes that harmonize in some way. I was speaking of the "common triad chord" since it is more defined and creates a harmonized grouping of notes that are unambiguous concerning their relation to Major or Minor as opposed to what is "Implied" by a dyad. It also seems to be a more modern approach to theory to refer to a chord as three notes that contain 3 separate intervals. The 1 to the 3, the 1 to the 5 and the 3 to the 5.... etc... as you stack more notes to create more complex chords.

 

Just trying to keep it simple so that the people of lesser theory could understand why an A5 or D5 etc... is undefined as far as Major and minor is concerned.

 

Thanks for the Input Matt!

 

Andy

[Andy R]

So the answer to my question how can you play in a major or minor key without playing a major or minor Chord is Simply instead of playing triad chords that are containing a major or minor "defining" note Just play all 5ths.

 

So if a song is in the KEY of G minor It will contain the notes G, A, Bb, C, D, Eb, F.

 

The key Signature for G Natural minor is 2 Flats ( Bb, Eb, ) ( relative major is Bb Major = same key Signature and would be Bb C D Eb F, G, A again 2 flats Bb Eb)

 

If the song has a tonal center of G ( in other words you go back to the G a lot)

 

And you played Some progression such as G5/Eb5/D5/G5/C5 X amount of times and maybe you play A5/B5/F5/G5 Back to the first pattern X times etc... Or however you want to play them ( may not be the best song) You Would technically be playing in the KEY of G minor without playing a single major or minor chord!!! Happens all the time in Rock and metal!

 

The actual minor chords might be produced by the mixing of your guitar part Playing nothing but 5ths and by the bass, vocal, lead, keyboard, etc... hitting the major or minor 3rd note of the 5ths you are playing in harmony.

 

You could also go a whole song in a minor or major key without playing ( or more accurately) producing as a band a single major or minor chord , so long as no one sings or plays the major or minor 3rd over the 5th you are playing at the moment in the piece....

 

 

Andy

[Andy R]

So I have obviously made a big deal of the following:

 

Knowing what key your in.

The key signature.

The difference between a Major Key and a Minor Key.

The difference Between a Major Scale and a Minor Scale.

The Difference between Relative Minor and Parallel Minor and how they relate to the Major Key

And Finally that the 5th Interval ( Power Chord) is neutral in that is neither Major or Minor

 

So why should you care? What good does this do me? How do I apply this? Who gives a Shnit?

 

Understanding what the Root key of the Song is in

What those notes are ( the Key Signature)

If it is Major or Minor

The Tonal Center (could be a mode of a Straight Major or Minor Key)

And that 5ths ( Power Chords ) are neither Major or Minor

 

Will Quickly let you know :

What chords will most likely be played

What Chords will most likely be major or minor ( or as you progress Maj7, Minor7, Augmented, Dimenished etc...)

What scales or patterns/Licks you can play over the chord progression without steping on Turds along the way

How to Utilize your leads to force a major/minor/7th yadda yadda during your solos or fills

How to play complimentary chords to what someone else is playing

 

 

 

Here is a basic application, Use it to make a I,iV,V 12 bar blues progression played using 5ths sound like major or minor blues or both simply by using the Parallel Major and Minor Pentatonic scales

 

For example if I am playing a 12 bar using 5ths in A ( notice I didn't say Major or Minor) so A5,D5,E5

 

If I play a straight A minor Pentatonic scale ( ACDGE) over the progression it will make it sound more like minor blues because i would ( or could) be hitting the notes C ( the minor 3rd of A) and the G ( minor 3rd of E) You could also hit the 7 of D5 ( with the C)

 

or I could play a Straight A Major Pentatonic Scale ( A B C# E F#) Now you are hitting the C3 ( major 3rd of the A5) and (F# major 3rd of the D5)

 

( you can even use the Same pattern just played 2 whole steps down ( lower) from where you play A minor pentatonic.

 

Or you could switch between both... or keep building Notes between the Scales and start adding Maj minor 7ths etc and so on. So you build the mood up and down... Major minor blues scales yadda yadda yadda ....

 

Now consider this when your listening to that guitar solo the guy is wailing out. Is he playing over a 5th? Or is he playing over truly major or minor chords? It makes a difference!

[zigzag]

Andy, in the case you sighted above (playing 1/5 diads in the key of A), could you explain what modes would be available? What modes are available in a typical blues I, IV, V progression?

[Andy R]

Andy, in the case you sighted above (playing 1/5 diads in the key of A), could you explain what modes would be available? What modes are available in a typical blues I, IV, V progression?

 

Yes I am just trying to come up with a way to explain that doesn't take too many twists and turns to get to the meat of it. I think this will involve some audio/maybe video to avoid too many words.

 

 

I explained 2 already A Major Pentatonic ( A Ionian ) and A minor Pentatonic ( A Aeolian ) You could add the 4 and 7 back to the pentatonics and make 7 note diatonic scale ( modes) that work the same way.

 

Andy

[damian]

Post 283 by Andy...........Exactly.....I actually wrote a song to prove this point, too busy to post it...

[stein]

Andy, in the case you sighted above (playing 1/5 diads in the key of A), could you explain what modes would be available? What modes are available in a typical blues I, IV, V progression?

It WILL get interesting if we continue this course and attempt to put theory to BLUES. The blues is the simplest to play, but the hardest to attach "RULES" to.

 

Over nearly every I IV V progression the minor pentatonic will work, and be the most suitable, regardless if the chords are major or minor. To get the "blues" scale, just add the flat fifth to the minor pentatonic.

 

Over a minor I IV V you could also do natural minor or even the harmonic minor. There is no real rule there, but I don't think the harmonic minor works all the time, so you can't use it ANY time like you can the natural minor or the pentatonic or the blues scale.

 

For a major sounding blues progression (like jump blues type stuff) you use the MAJOR pentatonic scale, or a little major scale will work, BUT NOT THE WHOLE TIME. When the band is on the I chord, you can play major, but when the band switches to the IV chord, you must either switch to the minor pentatonic or the MAJOR pentatonic OF THAT CHORD. (I need much more practice in this area, and I am still learning what can be done, as well as what can't be done).

[stein]

And I'd take that a step further and say that one separator, or distancer, or generation gap if you will would be that when I was a kid there was no reason to play the guitar except to be in a band and play with others. Sure, there were acoustic soloists, that happened. But way vast majority of guitar picker uppers either went on to be in bands, because chix dig guyz in bands, or they gave it up fast. The only guys in my HIGH school class that still play to this day are the ones still in bands, still out and about. Everyone else sold them all long ago and couldn't play Sweet Home Alabama for their life.

 

Today there are avenues and reasons to have and play guitars that have nothing to do with being in a band. It's a whole new world. I can record in my basement! BETTER than we did just thirty years ago! Awesome.

 

 

 

Both I suppose. Listening to yourself helps, and it is pretty hard to do in your first...oh, 17 bands or so. Listening to yourself and then figuring out why you hear a$$ in there is the theory part, not doing it again if you can help it is the experience with theory part. The good thing about theory is that you don't have to know it to know that a note sounds bad. If it sounds bad, it is bad, unless you do it twice, then it is Jazz and you spend twice as much time explaining why it is NOT bad. So both insofar as notes go.

 

Getting off the beat is long and hard learned, Mr. Betts was the Master of that, to me. Other guitar players have other guitar players that they learned their particular form of getting off the beat from, his was mine, is mine, I can prolly do his form better than he can today.

 

Most young, new, inexperienced players don't have a clue what that means, and won't for prolly long time. Can't teach it sitting there in two chairs, you need to be in a band, hanging around back by the drummer. Theory doesn't get near that I don't think. Your body tells you what the song is doing at what pace, where the one is, where the next one is, and so on. If you can venture off into some other timing or at least ignore the current time, that is one thing, getting back is just the nicest feeling.

 

So Betts doesn't even really appear on most guitar players list in my experience, but any video or concert experience with him shows a master of rhythm and timing, on and off the beat, all night. Except recent ones, I haven't seen him in years so I can't vouch for the current version of Great Southern.

 

If you are a fan or student of God, get thee the Hyde Park video...95? Something like that. He is out in front of I Shot The Sheriff, and he's just wankin away, doing that thing that only he can do, doing it exACTLY like he was doing it the first time I saw him. He wanders away a bit, he's not like a real off the beat player but he does stray hear and there. So he is prolly getting one or seven pull-offs too many ahead of himself and that friggin Gadd just b1tch slaps the tempo back to the 1 with just the most delicious flourish and lag to let all the guitar players find home. The camera is also just right for this which was dumb luck, and thankfully they left the visual exchange between granpa and the drummer. Priceless.

 

Feel is not really taught I guess I'm tryin to say. At least, I can't teach it!

 

rct

Betts is my favorite Allman Bro. I get his style, but, I have to say I can't play it like I wish I could. No disrespect at all to Duane, but I can't say enough about what his playing does for the sound we know as the Allman Bros, and his lead playing to me is the boogie that does the most to translate the rhythm of the band.

 

EC is problably the guitarist I relate to the most, and I am a huge fan as well. I looked up that video, and it is the best version of that I have heard. When he gets a fire in him, I don't think there is anyone who does it better.

 

Steve Gadd also happens to be one of my favorite drummers, if he isn't my favorite. He is also a master of the silent note, and sometimes what he DOESN'T play is what makes what he hits have so much impact. Sometimes, when he is just grooving HARD, he will hit that occasional accent just to let you know there is a shuffle or a more deeper thing going on, and then just IMPLY the hard groove. Or, like you pointed out, hit hard with silence just long enough to get that ***** slap on the big one.

 

Well, here is a point: there is theory with rhythm just like there is theory with notes and scales and chords. And, in the same way, even if you aren't proficient enough to always know what you are playing and doing, being aware of it and knowing there is SOMETHING behind it can benefit a guy a great deal.

[Duende]

It also seems to be a more modern approach to theory to refer to a chord as three notes that contain 3 separate intervals.

 

Actually it is more of a more modern approach in theory, to describe a chord as two or more notes played together (or 'broken - the notes played rapidly one after the other). Through the years though, opinion and teaching on this has varied, so perhaps it is best to teach people that it is thought of mainly as a chord by today's modern academics, but some people don't view it as a chord because of the reasons you write.

I don't want to derail the current focus and yes the above is a trivial detail, but I am also am very sincere about people having accurate up to the minute info.

 

Chord construction - A reminder

 

Back on track and to reiterate some of your useful info on the notes in a chord; this is for anyone who wants a 'refresh' ofnmajor and minor chords. This small article is easy to understand and just one page

 

http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~lukivr/ChTheory.html

 

Matt

[Andy R]

Actually it is more of a more modern approach in theory, to describe a chord as two or more notes played together (or 'broken - the notes played rapidly one after the other). Through the years though, opinion and teaching on this has varied, so perhaps it is best to teach people that it is thought of mainly as a chord by today's modern academics, but some people don't view it as a chord because of the reasons you write.

I don't want to derail the current focus and yes the above is a trivial detail, but I am also am very sincere about people having accurate up to the minute info.

 

Chord construction - A reminder

 

Back on track and to reiterate some of your useful info on the notes in a chord; this is for anyone who wants a 'refresh' ofnmajor and minor chords. This small article is easy to understand and just one page

 

http://www.cuug.ab.c...r/ChTheory.html

 

Matt

 

Works for me That's how I learn too.

 

I don't mind the corrections. I know that at a minimum what I am trying to convey works and isn't "grossly" inaccurate. So it is good that someone like you to fill in the details ( gray areas) for those that are interested. Thanks much!!!

[Andy R]

To me music theory is difficult to learn or grasp if you start from a microscopic view and slowly build out to a complete picture and conversely starting from the complete picture and working your way in. I personally have to kinda zoom in and out as I go to understand and learn. As I do this I am able to see things more and more at a microscopic level and the big picture gets clearer as I continue the process. That's just me though...

[Duende]

Works for me That's how I learn too.

 

I don't mind the corrections. I know that at a minimum what I am trying to convey works and isn't "grossly" inaccurate. So it is good that someone like you to fill in the details ( gray areas) for those that are interested. Thanks much!!!

 

God!!! It is frankly nothing less than refreshing having someone who is not only humble enough to accept criticism, but to also build from it, YOU are a gentleman Andy

 

Matt

[Andy R]

God!!! It is frankly nothing less than refreshing having someone who is not only humble enough to accept criticism, but to also build from it, YOU are a gentleman Andy

 

Matt

 

 

Well thank you Matt. I would say the exact same about you Sir! I really do appreciate your comments and additions to the post. Not everyone is willing to share knowledge they worked hard to gain. I imagine that someone with your knowledge might cringe a bit at some of my "teachings/Ramblings"

 

Everything I know has been absorbed through playing, reading, videos, asking questions, trial and error, writing and comparing scales, keys, intervals, etc... and a lot of head scratching. I have had no formal training or even basic lessons for that matter so I teach in the way that I found "Turned the lights on" for me.

 

So for me "corrections" are not criticisms but opportunities for my "light Bulb Moments" to shine a bit brighter!

 

For that I thank you respectfully and kindly.

 

Regards,

 

Andy

[stein]

I have had a few light bulbs come on with this thread.