zigzag Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Knowing what key a piece is in tells you many things right away. It instantly tells you the tonic key, gives instant insight into modal possibilities, and helps in sight reading/playing notation. I cannot agree with those that think that knowing theory is useless. Nobody ever got worse from learning theory, and knowing it makes most people better. Most good musicians would probably agree. You can be a guitar player if you play guitar, but you cannot be a musician without knowing some theory, either inherently or through formal training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShredAstaire Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Deleted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 I don't doubt it. It would make me crazy is what i'm saying. I'm all aboot "play the f'n song!" :) I hear ya, but it's all about the performance and execution that will make you stand out. This thread is just for conversations sake, and really there are some great points within this thread.... If I had my choice of reading "why a member that has been banned for over a year," or a thread that touches on "music theory" no matter how circular the discussion is.... I'll take the music theory thread every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Deleted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 The fact is that no matter how much theory you know, you still don't know it all. And rules are tested, bent, or broken all the time; just ask any jazz great. Yeppers Good example of a strange song is Strawberry Fields by the Beatles.... It's in C Major, and there is not one C chord in the whole darn song ...This particular song was a main topic for discussion in my college theory course..... Everyone got the answer wrong ... And the discussion went on for three days... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted May 31, 2011 Author Share Posted May 31, 2011 Deleted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 In this world we're living in/ We have our share of sorrows Answer now is don't give in / aim for new tomorrow Try playing just 5ths - D5 A5 F#5 While he or you sings Then Try Playing D minor, A minor and F# minor Then Try Dmajor, A Major and F# Major Finally try D major, A major and F# minor I think you will find that (besides the 5ths) D Major, A Major, F# minor progression sounds correct because Halford is occasionally hitting the major and minor 3rd of the chords in his vocal line) The solo is predominately in F# minor Blues Scales as you can hear them adding the the C C# and A Which again implies the minor .... I know you're a Guru so I am open to a rebuttal.... Andy D Major, D Major F# bass, A Major F# Minor..... D Major, D Major w/ F# bass, A Major, C# major to F# Major.... then solo... My ears and brain still tell me F# major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 This IS getting deep, and I think there are no perfect answers. But, I think it is time we digress and get into a little ear training in order to get down to what makes one scale or another. I think ANDYS thoery is correct, and it alludes to the ear and intervals as to explaining the blues scale. Technically, it is spot on, but it also takes something simple and requires explaining how the blues scale can exist. I side with DUANE here. Regardless of the 3rd actually played, it may be implied. A listen to his example where he plays the minor triads against the vocal and then the major triads proves something and clinches it for me. The vocal line with the minor triads sounds proper and has a beauty to it, but when played with the major triads, the vocal line takes on a rock and roll quality to it. I also side with the major triad with the minor pentatonic explanation as more technically correct, because if you call out the tune as F minor, it allows for more notes in the minor scale as being correct to play. If you call the tune out as Major but with a blues scale or a minor pentatonic, it tells everyone which notes to exclude and include, even if you omit the third. Expressing in terms of keys serves to let us know not only which notes to play and which not to play, but expresses the TONALITY of the tune. That is why we have different keys in the first place, and why they SOUND different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChanMan Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Shred and Chan, the first word of the thread is "Theory." Why would you expect any less? B) Perhaps you could stear the thread into an area of theory that interests you. The OP started as a teaching thread. It quickly devovled into so much gobbldy gook. I've taught... and taught extremely technical topics to novices. One of the first things incoming instructors learn is to teach to the students at their level of understanding and not at yours. For those of us who know little or no theory, going from "this is the base note of the scale, otherwise known as the "root"" into a diatribe on whether a particular song is in a major or minor F# based on this myxolidian or that 5th,4th or 7th is not exactly conducive to excellent teaching, nor is it particularly "on topic" with respect to this thread's apparent original intent. So, if I understand your point, everyone should know theory, but if we don't already know it, stay away from the threads that teach it, because they are bound to be over our heads eventually. I mean... it does say "Theory". I apologize for my brief derailing of this in depth discussion of Judas Priest songs. For the record, I voted F#Maj, and think Duane's playing the tune in both keys made it pretty clear. A hearty /chuckle, replete with head shake :D! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FarnsBarns Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Well, I've had a listen and I believe it has a minor third in there but that it is being forced onto a major key, a la blues. I hunted for some backup before I posted and this seems quite interesting... http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=17508 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Deleted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted June 1, 2011 Author Share Posted June 1, 2011 Deleted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcmurray Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Duane, try this: listen to the whole song but turn the volume down when you get to the 8 bar break before the solo, then turn it up again for the solo onwards. Ignoring the 8 bar break, it should be obvious that it's F# minor. There's not a major or minor chord anywhere, just power chords. In other words, chord theory does not and cannot apply here. The key can be determined just by listening to the root notes of the power chords, which outline the natural minor tonality perfectly. Sure, the song modulates for those 8 bars, but the key of the whole piece cannot be based on these 8 bars, as it's only a tiny fraction of the whole song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChanMan Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 You don't understand my point and maybe I don't have one. Six pages with around 15 +s handed out. Somebody got something out of it. You can't expect a thread about theory (we were originally asked to give suggestions for insightful information) on a forum to follow any type of logical progression and be beneficial to everyone. Nobody forced you to play Andy's game. If you don't like it, just move on. Like Duane said, it's a better thread than wondering what happened to Neo. And I gave my opinion, which backed up Shred's. Just like you are now giving yours. Notice how I'm not telling you not to or to go elsewhere? That's what forums are for, after all, expressing opinions. Right? Of course I am. I also stated very clearly that the hodge-podge of, for us neophytes, confusing and contradictory opinions on theory is exactly why I typically stay away from theory threads. Here, let me help you out: It IS why I tend to avoid these threads... they start out well enough, but quickly devolve into spirals of "theory geek-speak" which occlude the learning for those of us who would. Understand now? Or are you still insistant on telling me not to post my opinions and to go elsewhere? I am being civil and not insulting or patronizing here, even though I think you've singled Shred and I out for ridicule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShredAstaire Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Deleted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcmurray Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Whoa calm down gentlemen, this thread is just a bit of friendly banter that may help others trying to learn this stuff. You both have valid points, no need to argue about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChanMan Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Ah i'm used to ridicule, I'm a Buckethead fan dontchaknow!! :) Mind you, he's proficient in theory to a degree far far beyond me.... Buckethead is proficient in many things that are far beyond me..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcmurray Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Whoa calm down gentlemen, this thread is just a bit of friendly banter that may help others trying to learn this stuff. You both have valid points (chanman, zigzag), no need to argue about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShredAstaire Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Deleted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChanMan Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Whoa calm down gentlemen, this thread is just a bit of friendly banter that may help others trying to learn this stuff. You both have valid points, no need to argue about it. I believe I stated I am very calm. I am also not arguing. Chill out, dude, and please continue with your banter on theory. Perhaps there will come a time when I can come back and understand half of what's been said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChanMan Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Problem is...i haven't learned anything because no one can agree on the "theory"... I won't go that far, but I will say that the folks who jumped in did kind of spoil the level of understanding I was gaining. That being said, everytime someone tries once again to explain theory here, I pick up just a little bit better understanding. This time, I learned where the sharps/flats come from... perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChanMan Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 And that's about all I can do to convince you that it is in THE KEY OF E Minor not E Major Andy That's cheating. E wasn't even a choice. I say the poll was rigged! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShredAstaire Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Deleted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted June 1, 2011 Author Share Posted June 1, 2011 Deleted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted June 1, 2011 Author Share Posted June 1, 2011 Deleted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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