cam011235 Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 "This very much is a bill that has helped save domestic jobs in the hardwood industry," said Jameson French, CEO of Northland Forest Products Inc., in a conference call with representatives from the National Hardwood Lumber Association, the Environmental Investigation Agency, a nonprofit that tracks illegal logging, and the United Steelworkers labor union. Wow !!!!!!! Listen to this idiot talk......We export RAW logs out of this country all the time.....NOT finished wood products, but RAW logs....... Darn, so, exporting UNFINISHED LOGS saves American jobs.........I think they should start selling London Bridges !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! alot of the political correctness is madness they go to far they may mean well but in the end it is causing so many problems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluzhammer Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 alot of the political correctness is madness they go to far they may mean well but in the end it is causing so many problems Ahhhhh, Political Correctness - A term associated with high minded, smarter than thou, individuals or entities used to suppress or marginalize speech, ideas or policies that they don't agree with. These individuals or entities are known for the innate ability to shove their heads so far up their a## that any other view point, regardless of fact , is completely ignored. Definition taken from the Bluzhammer Dictionary of The Common Citizen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cam011235 Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Ahhhhh, Political Correctness - A term associated with high minded, smarter than thou, individuals or entities used to suppress or marginalize speech, ideas or policies that they don't agree with. These individuals or entities are known for the innate ability to shove their heads so far up their a## that any other view point, regardless of fact , is completely ignored. Definition taken from the Bluzhammer Dictionary of The Common Citizen. Amen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluzhammer Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Amen Dictionary coming to bookstore near you. then I'll be off to the Gulag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 On Tuesday, Republican lawmakers demanded more details from the Justice Department and Interior Department regarding the August raid at Gibson Guitar Corp., in which agents seized ebony suspected of being illegally imported from India. No....they seized RoseWood. The Lacey Act makes it illegal to import plants or wildlife obtained in violation of the laws in the U.S. or other countries. So the Lacy Act is a law that makes breaking the law illegal...? Sounds like something we really need. Chris Tollefson, a spokesman for the Fish & Wildlife Service, part of the Interior Department, declined to comment on the Gibson investigation. He said the agency's enforcement is focused on companies that buy large quantities of wood products and won't focus on individual consumers or musicians. No... they leave hassling individual consumers and musicians under the Lacy Act to the Border Patrol and Customs. Other officials from the wood-products industry defended the Lacey Act, saying it has preserved U.S. jobs in timber, furniture and retail sectors and helped boost U.S. exports of wood products to foreign buyers who want assurance that the goods don't contain illegally forested material. Those "other officials" are what we call Morons. Why don't they ban together and pass a new law that makes it illegal to violate the Lacy Act? Then maybe pass another new law that makes breaking that law illegal too! Colossal dipshitery... ., in a conference call with representatives from the National Hardwood Lumber Association, the Environmental Investigation Agency, a nonprofit that tracks illegal logging, and the United Steelworkers labor union. I'm sorry... who was that last representative listed there? In 2008, the 111-year-old Lacey Act, originally passed to protect wildlife, was amended to cover wood and plant materials to help prevent illegal logging and deforestation in areas including the border between Russia and China, and to protect U.S producers from low-priced illegally sourced wood. Ohhhh now I see. The Lacy Act is protecting Henry J and the Gibson workers and all those musicians who have had their instruments confiscated. Let's see... the law was amended in 2008 and the first raid was ...when? Rep. Earl Blumenauer (D., Ore.), an original supporter of the amendments, called the recent controversy over the Lacey Act "painfully overblown." "The record is absolutely clear. If we have these provisions and they're enforced, it creates jobs in this country," he said. See? It's "painfully clear". And these guys are experts on how redundant regulation creates jobs. Who are you going to believe, Earl or your lying eyeballs? Forget about those pesky unemployment numbers. The U.S. Fish and Wild Life Service is hiring like there's no tomorrow!!U.S. Fish and Wild Life Service He then went on to say "War is peace, Freedom is slavery and Ignorance is Strength." "The concern is that they impose huge compliance costs on the business community," said Erik Autor, international trade counsel for the federation. He said retailers could also have inventory seized if regulators believe it contained illegally sourced material. Yea right... like that would ever happen... To err is human... to really destroy things takes an act of congress. Hope they have a nice vacation next week Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cam011235 Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 "This very much is a bill that has helped save domestic jobs in the hardwood industry," said Jameson French, CEO of Northland Forest Products Inc., in a conference call with representatives from the National Hardwood Lumber Association, the Environmental Investigation Agency, a nonprofit that tracks illegal logging, and the United Steelworkers labor union. Wow !!!!!!! Listen to this idiot talk......We export RAW logs out of this country all the time.....NOT finished wood products, but RAW logs....... Darn, so, exporting UNFINISHED LOGS saves American jobs.........I think they should start selling London Bridges !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! man its BS our countries are going down the tubes america europe australia all struggling ..asia is cleaning up they must think the west are crazy they are running circles round us ..and we are sitting here scratching our heads why these bureaucrats are doing this while asian industry just gets stronger every day while the west helps them to do so..managing to shoot themselves in the foot at the same time...obama is changing the mr nice guy has gone something more sinister is replacing it..it is sad to see...this is madness at least there are a few who can see how ridiculous the situation is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cam011235 Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 "This very much is a bill that has helped save domestic jobs in the hardwood industry," said Jameson French, CEO of Northland Forest Products Inc., in a conference call with representatives from the National Hardwood Lumber Association, the Environmental Investigation Agency, a nonprofit that tracks illegal logging, and the United Steelworkers labor union. Wow !!!!!!! Listen to this idiot talk......We export RAW logs out of this country all the time.....NOT finished wood products, but RAW logs....... Darn, so, exporting UNFINISHED LOGS saves American jobs.........I think they should start selling London Bridges !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! dont know y it posted twice whoops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cam011235 Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 On Tuesday, Republican lawmakers demanded more details from the Justice Department and Interior Department regarding the August raid at Gibson Guitar Corp., in which agents seized ebony suspected of being illegally imported from India. To err is human... to really destroy things takes an act of congress. Hope they have a nice vacation next week well said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 man its BS our countries are going down the tubes america europe australia all struggling ..asia is cleaning up they must think the west are crazy they are running circles round us ..and we are sitting here scratching our heads why these bureaucrats are doing this while asian industry just gets stronger every day while the west helps them to do so..managing to shoot themselves in the foot at the same time...obama is changing the mr nice guy has gone something more sinister is replacing it..it is sad to see...this is madness at least there are a few who can see how ridiculous the situation is China is definitely reaping the benefits of over-priced American made goods, and the American consumer is their biggest market. Areas around Chinese manufacturing centers are like cesspools, and Chinese workers make in a year what American workers make in a week. Kinda hard to compete with that. If you need something else to get upset with congress over, try telling your congressmen to amend trade agreements and start imposing tariffs on imports (among other things). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 If the U.S. wants to maintain her ability to borrow and spend she had better not piss off China. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 And another thing... thinking that the raid on Gibson is due to some vindetta by Obama or congress is poor ignorance. The Lacey Act is over a hundred years old. What appears to be happening is that a government agency has over-stepped its bounds due to the justifications of a few people at that agency level. And we don't really know if their actions were justified or not, because all we really know is what Henry J. is telling us. You can speculate all you want, but you should to try to be open minded enough about what is happening to realize the possible legitimacy of either entity's (Gibson and the government) points-of-view until all of the issues come to the surface and the legalities are resolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 If the U.S. wants to maintain her ability to borrow and spend she had better not piss off China. If China wants to maintain it's biggest consumer market, it needs to try to guarantee the health of that market. (Don't **** where you eat.) It goes both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 And another thing... thinking that the raid on Gibson is due to some vindetta by Obama or congress is poor ignorance. The Lacey Act is over a hundred years old. What appears to be happening is that a government agency has over-stepped its bounds due to the justifications of a few people at that agency level. And we don't really know if their actions were justified or not, because all we really know is what Henry J. is telling us. You can speculate all you want, but you should to try to be open minded enough about what is happening to realize the possible legitimacy of either entity's (Gibson and the government) points-of-view until all of the issues come to the surface and the legalities are resolved. Actually the Lacy Act was amended to included wood and plant products in 2008. Since then the only company to be subjected to this sort of silliness is Gibson. I agree that it is not likely that Obama is ordering agents to raid the guitar company. He's got bigger problems. But until someone can tell me why LMI, Martin and Alembic haven't been raided and why no charges have been filed in the 2009 Ebony case, I say there's something fishy going on. Being a person who leans rather libertarian I'm usually going to suspect government incompetence and sometimes just petty meanness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cam011235 Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 And another thing... thinking that the raid on Gibson is due to some vindetta by Obama or congress is poor ignorance. The Lacey Act is over a hundred years old. What appears to be happening is that a government agency has over-stepped its bounds due to the justifications of a few people at that agency level. And we don't really know if their actions were justified or not, because all we really know is what Henry J. is telling us. You can speculate all you want, but you should to try to be open minded enough about what is happening to realize the possible legitimacy of either entity's (Gibson and the government) points-of-view until all of the issues come to the surface and the legalities are resolved. i wasnt suggesting the raid was a personal vendetta from obama ...so excuse my poor ignorance..i just said that he seemed to have changed that there was no more mr nice guy as i think he realises he is in trouble as far as his political survival is concerned ..well thats just my perception from here ..i am not american i am in another country so i wont be writing to my congressman ..i simply am concerned over what has happened .. china is cleaning up and will continue to do so they dont have the moral or ethical issues that we are obsessed with they can be ruthless and will work their @sses of for peanuts we are stuffed as manufacturers and that is true in australia to where i live ..we are surviving because we sell raw resources to china in our mines..being part of the se asian region has probably saved us from the economic woes that is happening most places.. i am concerned about fretboards but i am far more concerned about the big picture the economic and political issues that are coming ..what happened in the gibson raid to my thinking was shocking ..that is no way for a country to treat its citizens .. if it was a meth lab fair enough but to raid a factory of unarmed law abiding citizens working with a swat team waving automatic weapons around is wrong..that is something that happened in the soviet union or nazi germany...well thats just my opinion .. if this happened in austrlaia i would be extremely concerned..and yes the federal department is doing this under the obama administration i thought human rights would be respected under his administration ..guess i was wrong...those workers at the gibson plants had their human rights violated in those raids..well thats just my opinion.. excuse me if i appear to have poor ignorance please illuminate me..i will keep an open mind.. i just some dumb aussie bro..we dont raid guitar factories with swat teams here so scuse the ignorance cobber ..wouldnt want to speculate eh? guess you arent either? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Well... First, I dunno about the hardwood industry, but the tree huggers - wealthy folks who think they want a kind of forest that never existed, but can be pretty for a while - managed to kill a healthy pine-based forestry industry in South Dakota's Black Hills. And the forest itself is quickly becoming dead as well as the over-forested area is hit by disease and rust-colored needles replace the greens of the hillsides. How did it happen? Environmental regulations designed to allow delays and objections until it's past any practical window for anybody to do anything but fire workers and shut down. That ended roughly 700 of the best blue collar jobs in the region that allowed a roughly middle class lifestyle, lots of volunteer forest firefighters and kids who went on to college. That was replaced by jobs serving wealthy tourists in increasingly gentrified communities aimed at drawing $1 million summer homes and pretty trees. At the time, anyone who opposed the job losses or functional end to logging were at best called liars when it came to noting what was happening, probable economic consequences and forest health. They also had the law, if not science and economics, on their side. But I don't see it as overtly politically as some here, although the general "urban" perspective of the left contributed greatly to the regs themselves. But it's the effect of any bureaucracy that presses to prove its relevance in a time of cost cutting. I have a hunch that there's a degree of both surprise and anger at the support received by Gibson that has also become political. As for the firearms in the raids, I've heard one credible justification that also reflects a more urban perspective: Tennessee is a state that is "liberal" in its firearms policies and there might have been armed employees, so an armed invasion made sense to protect the officers involved. Again, that sort of argument to me is another example of the more rural vs urban mind set that one tends to find in bureaucracies either business or government. It makes sense to a lot of people. In fact, I'm bothered as much by the Tennessee Rep., a GOP lady, who said the folks in the raid, "felt the need to act like a bunch of cowboys." Cowboys tend only to have firearms out for use when needed. It's city folks who think they're magic wands of some sort. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 found the full article the link will ask for subscription so i copied pasted it- .......... <snipped copyrighted text here - http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/74313-wall-street-journal-article-on-gibson-raids/page__view__findpost__p__1011894 > © . WSJ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Copyright ©2011 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved As long as we're discussing federal rules - DMCA - criminalizes the act of circumventing an access control, whether or not there is actual infringement of copyright itself. Nice job. . I wonder if Gibson will get a "take down" notice? . <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 I, in no way, support the way the raid was conducted. I'm only trying to figure out why it was done the way it was. I suspect the only justification was that the accusations against Gibson carried the same weight, and warrented the same action, as would be taken against any smuggler. I was at home when I smelled smoke and could not locate the cause. I called the local volunteer fire department at the number in the phone book, not 911. I told them that I smelled something burning and could not find the source, would they send someone over to help me locate it? I told them that there was likely no emergency, so do not come with sirens blazing. Well, guess what? They came with sirens blazing, respirators on, all gear on, axes in hand. My point is that agencies have standard procedures, and my guess is the FAWL people were following a standard procedure for raiding smugglers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cam011235 Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 I, in no way, support the way the raid was conducted. I'm only trying to figure out why it was done the way it was. I suspect the only justification was that the accusations against Gibson carried the same weight, and warrented the same action, as would be taken against any smuggler. I was at home when I smelled smoke and could not locate the cause. I called the local volunteer fire department at the number in the phone book, not 911. I told them that I smelled something burning and could not find the source, would they send someone over to help me locate it? I told them that there was likely no emergency, so do not come with sirens blazing. Well, guess what? They came with sirens blazing, respirators on, all gear on, axes in hand. My point is that agencies have standard procedures, and my guess is the FAWL people were following a standard procedure for raiding smugglers. fair enough i think that is what hurt me the most that innocent people were threatened...we see alot of american tv out here that sort of freaks us out even though it may not be like that in reality we still get affected by the apparent violence..i still maintain that was a 4th amendment violation of excessive force .. i agree it is important to keep an open objective mind but i have looked at third party information and i still have yet to see anything from feds that really justifies the action they took..it would appear to have come from concerns they had over the importer gibson used but once again nothing solid has been done or said ..there has to date been no evidence yet it has hurt gibson big time it has cost them a million dollars.. so where are the feds with all the illegal copies being smuggled or imported or sold..i dont recall hearing bout any raids or busts here..i feel sorry for the american people its industry and workers..i still dont have the full picture but it isnt good what is happening..i am not some ol school loyal gibson user..i use gibson guitars but also have many other brands but the actions in this raid so offended my sense of justice i felt strongly enough to come to this forum and give my support to gibson ..i have continued using the forum as i like it and the way it is run it is good to talk to guitarists incidently i do casual work at the university here at the med school which makes me a federal government employee ..i also have a background clearance and have also done government info tech work in the past..i am not anti goverment at all..but in our free cultures we have safe guards that protect our systems..america has its constitution which to me is a great thing and should be respected as should the rights of its citizens .. there would appear to ba a vendetta against gibson, but as you say it is important to keep an open objective mind and wait till all facts are heard..time will tell.. till then i will still give my support to gibson regardless of the lacey act issues as the handling of the raid is excessive and to do that to innocent people is wrong and frightening scenario...to see this happen in a 'free' country is terrible if it was uganda or some other place where thats happpens well it would be bad but to see that happening in a country that australia enjoys such close ties with is very sad ..we often end up like the states in many areas we are like a 53rd state haha . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Read again what I wrote about the firearms and feds. There may be an SOP used to excuse it, but the rationale, I'll bet with 101 percent certainty, I've already mentioned. BTW, no country is "free" unless it allows private citizens the same or greater freedom with "personal" firearms as it does its law enforcement and military. Why? Read your history. If law-abiding citizens have nothing to fear, they probably don't "carry." Contrary to arguments against, in states that finally returned to variations of that concept, criminality did not increase. One might question why or whether it decreased, but it did not increase. Courteous law-abiding officers have nothing to fear, IMHO, even from discourteous and armed law abiding citizens any more than they have to fear from fellow officers. Perhaps less... m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cam011235 Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 © . WSJ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Copyright ©2011 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved As long as we're discussing federal rules - DMCA - criminalizes the act of circumventing an access control, whether or not there is actual infringement of copyright itself. Nice job. . I wonder if Gibson will get a "take down" notice? . <_< actually i wondered that after i did it so i will go on the record that i wilfully stole the article and if my ip is traced thy can send a blackhawk with fully armed swat team to my adress ..hi to the federal agents reading these posts you boys are welcome to bust me with a swat team you will be welcome i will even offer you a cup of tea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cam011235 Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Read again what I wrote about the firearms and feds. There may be an SOP used to excuse it, but the rationale, I'll bet with 101 percent certainty, I've already mentioned. BTW, no country is "free" unless it allows private citizens the same or greater freedom with "personal" firearms as it does its law enforcement and military. Why? Read your history. If law-abiding citizens have nothing to fear, they probably don't "carry." Contrary to arguments against, in states that finally returned to variations of that concept, criminality did not increase. One might question why or whether it decreased, but it did not increase. Courteous law-abiding officers have nothing to fear, IMHO, even from discourteous and armed law abiding citizens any more than they have to fear from fellow officers. Perhaps less... m yes thats true there are many decent hard working honest agents police security that protect us and do a fine job often risking there lives as do our military which protects us and do a fine job we live very well and safely comparatively ..that is true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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