Lefty Guy Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I see that the Wildwood dealer exclusive model that I got shipped over to the UK has now made it onto Gibson's official website! http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Acoustic-Instruments/Round-Shoulder/Gibson-Acoustic/Southern-Jumbo-New-Vintage.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I don't understand why they would mix the late-50's style pickguard with the banner-style headstock. The pickguard changes in the slope SJ exactly followed those of the J-45, to the best of my knowledge. The SJ really was a "blinged" J-45, for those who could afford it. I assume this one is as well, not that there's anything wrong with that. Many of us--myself included--have a "thing for bling", to some extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I don't understand why they would mix the late-50's style pickguard with the banner-style headstock. .... HA! This from the guy with the modded 45! . B) Wildwood has had several Gibson "New Vintage" models in stock for quite a while now. Earlier this year we had a couple threads on them. - http://www.wildwoodguitars.com/acoustics/gibson.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 HA! This from the guy with the modded 45! . B) Yeah, but I can't blame Gibson for the look of my guitar. Seriously do the "vintage" syle acoustics have period features such as 19-fret boards, 17 degree headstock angle, headstock tapered in profile, etc? Or are they all just meant to "evoke" the feel of a period while incorporating the same features as ther "modern" cousins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GotTheSilver Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Yeah, but I can't blame Gibson for the look of my guitar. Seriously do the "vintage" syle acoustics have period features such as 19-fret boards, 17 degree headstock angle, headstock tapered in profile, etc? Or are they all just meant to "evoke" the feel of a period while incorporating the same features as ther "modern" cousins? The True Vintage (and now the New Vintage) series are not exact reproductions of any particular year. They are a mix of what Gibson considers the best features of a particular model over a number of years, hence the mixing of the banner and the later period pickguard. By contrast, the Legend series is an exact reproduction of a particular year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GotTheSilver Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I see that the Wildwood dealer exclusive model that I got shipped over to the UK has now made it onto Gibson's official website! http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Acoustic-Instruments/Round-Shoulder/Gibson-Acoustic/Southern-Jumbo-New-Vintage.aspx It is interesting that they put this on their website, even with a logo in the corner that says "Wildwood Guitars exclusive." In the past, they have not put dealer exclusives on their website, for example the AJ since it was supposed to be exclusive to Guitar Center. I wonder if we see other dealer exclusives on their website now, such as some of the Fuller's models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 It is interesting that they put this on their website, even with a logo in the corner that says "Wildwood Guitars exclusive." In the past, they have not put dealer exclusives on their website, for example the AJ since it was supposed to be exclusive to Guitar Center. I wonder if we see other dealer exclusives on their website now, such as some of the Fuller's models. Actually, Gibson is responding to complaints about the absence of some models (including exclusives) and specs on their website. They started early this year listing exclusives, particularly on the electric listings and are now getting around to the acoustics. I for one really appreciate more complete listings and spec availability. +1 . on your answer to Nick's question about features. . B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 The True Vintage (and now the New Vintage) series are not exact reproductions of any particular year. They are a mix of what Gibson considers the best features of a particular model over a number of years, hence the mixing of the banner and the later period pickguard. By contrast, the Legend series is an exact reproduction of a particular year. After a review of the J-45 Legend specs, I take your point. But you pay, pay, pay for that degree of period accuracy, sometimes to the point that an excellent vintage guitar may be a better value. It's not clear to me when and if these extremely expensive "Legend" series guitars will earn back the significant premium you pay for them. I recently looked at a perfect two-year-old L-00 Legend that was going for significantly less than half the nominal list price of a brand-new one. Of course, I'm the same guy who paid a huge premium to buy a Nashville-built ES 335 rather than the Memphis-built version of the same guitar. But I did get it for $1000 less than the original owner paid the year before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rar Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 By contrast, the Legend series is an exact reproduction of a particular year. Actually, not. They're "exact reproductions" of specific guitars, Eldon Whitford's legendary '42 J-45 and Leroy Parnell's equally legendary '37 L-00. There can be huge variation in a particular year, and even significant variation in a batch. So the idea was to copy what are widely considered to be the best examples, trying to recapture the magic of those particular instruments, rather than building to some set of nominal "specifications" for '42 J-45s and '37 L-00s. -- Bob R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rar Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 But you pay, pay, pay for that degree of period accuracy, sometimes to the point that an excellent vintage guitar may be a better value. It's not clear to me when and if these extremely expensive "Legend" series guitars will earn back the significant premium you pay for them. Unfortunately, the bigwigs in Nashville decided that the competition for the Legends was Martin's Authentics, and decided the prices would be set accordingly. The fact that a '42 D-18 was a lot more expensive than a '42 J-45 -- and so, unlike Martin, they could wind up competing against "the real thing" -- apparently didn't figure into it. The original list price for the J-45 Legend was well under $6K. On the other hand, I've heard that there is so much labor required (from Ren in particular) to build a Legend, that building them doesn't make any economic sense, even at the higher price, because of the lost opportunity cost. I think the main reason they're in production is that these are the best sounding guitars Bozeman can build, and the people there take a lot of pride in them. -- Bob R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GotTheSilver Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 On the other hand, I've heard that there is so much labor required (from Ren in particular) to build a Legend... Sorry to take a detour on the thread topic, but do you know specifically what work Ren performs on these guitars? I have a J-45 Legend and would love to know what work Ren did on it. I understand he has the most experience in the factory with hide glue, so I assume it probably has something to do with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 On the other hand, I've heard that there is so much labor required (from Ren in particular) to build a Legend, that building them doesn't make any economic sense, even at the higher price, because of the lost opportunity cost. I think the main reason they're in production is that these are the best sounding guitars Bozeman can build, and the people there take a lot of pride in them. -- Bob R You raise a really good point here, particularly if, as I read recently, the average number of build man-hours per Bozeman guitar is no more than about 12. I don't care how efficient you are: there are bound to be significantly more hours in these near-custom guitars, when you compare them to "standard" J-45. Time is money. There is relatively little difference in materials cost in these "Legends" compared to their less-costly cousins, but even just picking out the best pieces of wood takes time, compared to just taking the next piece on the stack. I would really love to see a time-lapse video of the building of a J-45 Legend. One of the most educational guitar-realte4d videos I've seen was the hour-long one on the development and production OF the exact replica's of Clapton's legendary cherry red ES 335 by the Nashville plant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rar Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 ... particularly if, as I read recently, the average number of build man-hours per Bozeman guitar is no more than about 12. ... According to what I've been told by folks who work there, that's way low. (More like the number for Martin.) Choosing the wood for the Legends is not that big a factor. There's a more-or-less standard price to have Ren select the wood for your guitar, which is small compared to the TV vs Legend price difference. Probably the biggest factor contributing to the difference in build cost is the extensive use of hot hide glue in building the Legend. Hide glue is used for every glue joint (with one exception) on the Legends, and Ren was the only guy there with the required level of hide glue experience. (The level's gone up recently, as there are now a glue pot at the top bracing workstation -- so having top braces stuck on with hide glue no longer guarantees that Ren did the sticking -- but I suspect that Ren is still the only guy doing full-out hide glue assembly.) Having Ren assemble your guitar is a serious upcharge. -- Bob R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambler Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 The True Vintage (and now the New Vintage) series are not exact reproductions of any particular year. They are a mix of what Gibson considers the best features of a particular model over a number of year Well, that's the 'party line,' but is it going to satisfy vintage hounds? There's just too much information out there for those to pass muster. I think buyers will tolerate an approximation of a Banner Jumbo, as Martin fans will and HD28vr. But the SoJo TV? I can't figure the target market when its too obvious an mismatch for vintage and too upscale for casual buyers, but still, they are moving units. Inscrutable, Henry. Btw, does this mean the TV is now NV? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponty Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Interesting! Gibson are now advertising for, and on behalf of Wildwood guitars whilst Fullers "are currently working with Gibson to get our Gibson inventory back online". I am not sure why Wildwood exclusives warrant a place on the Gibson website over other 5 star dealers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GotTheSilver Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Well, that's the 'party line,' but is it going to satisfy vintage hounds? There's just too much information out there for those to pass muster. I think buyers will tolerate an approximation of a Banner Jumbo, as Martin fans will and HD28vr. But the SoJo TV? I can't figure the target market when its too obvious an mismatch for vintage and too upscale for casual buyers, but still, they are moving units. Inscrutable, Henry. Btw, does this mean the TV is now NV? If I were in the market for a Southern Jumbo, it would satisfy me. I am not a stickler for historically accurate details, but I am willing to pay more for certain things, such as hide glue neck joints, nicer tuners, the cool look of a banner on the headstock. And the difference in price between a Standard SJ and a TV SJ is not very large. I think it is entirely understandable for the average consumer interested in an SJ to be willing to spend a bit more for these features. BTW, there are other non-Legend models that are more of an attempt to recreate the characteristics of a certain year. I believe the Woody Guthrie SJ is supposed to be a 1942 model, and the Aaron Lewis SJ is based on Aaron's 1951 model. There are also special runs that Gibson puts out from time to time for certain dealers that recreate certain periods in Gibson's history. And these are priced much more like Standard and TV models than Legend models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rar Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 ... but I am willing to pay more for certain things, such as hide glue neck joints, ... You don't have to pay more for a hide-glued neck joint -- that's comes Standard. TVs, and I assume NVs, do sound better than Standards (on average) and I think that's mostly why people choose them over Standards. The fact that they look a little more like much beloved vintage models is just a nice bonus. -- Bob R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rar Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Sorry to take a detour on the thread topic, but do you know specifically what work Ren performs on these guitars? ... I know that he built the first production run himself in the Custom Shop. (Which means he chose people on the production line to do some of the "grunt work", like bending the ribs, but he chose the wood and did everything from cutting the braces to the final assembly. I think that Van "The Man" Feldner applied the finish, but don't know for sure. So they were about as "built by Ren in the Custom Shop" as anything you can buy, except that the necks were roughed out by a CNC machine to ensure consistency.) I think that's still pretty much the way it works, but I'm not positive. -- Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GotTheSilver Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 You don't have to pay more for a hide-glued neck joint -- that's comes Standard. TVs, and I assume NVs, do sound better than Standards (on average) and I think that's mostly why people choose them over Standards. The fact that they look a little more like much beloved vintage models is just a nice bonus. -- Bob R I didn't realize the Standards had hide glue in the neck joint. Thanks for the clarification. I know that he built the first production run himself in the Custom Shop. (Which means he chose people on the production line to do some of the "grunt work", like bending the ribs, but he chose the wood and did everything from cutting the braces to the final assembly. I think that Van "The Man" Feldner applied the finish, but don't know for sure. So they were about as "built by Ren in the Custom Shop" as anything you can buy, except that the necks were roughed out by a CNC machine to ensure consistency.) I think that's still pretty much the way it works, but I'm not positive. -- Bob Thanks again, Bob! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambler Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 "If I were in the market for a Southern Jumbo, it would satisfy me. I am not a stickler for historically accurate details". Well, there you go. Someone here has pointed out that Gibson chose the the SJ TV/NV appointments because they were already making a more-or-less period correct banner SJ in the WG and a crown inlay/bat-wing pg version in standard The design, with is mismatched parts, has mo more logic, other than that of filling a marketing niche next to the J45 TV. Everyone can draw their own conclusions, but imho it makes no sense to offer a vintage design that isn't. I also, like King Canute, can ask the tide not to come in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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