For love or money?

[jazzman-oosh!]

You guys have been great helpig me out, so I'm working up a youtube video sampling 3 string sets on an L48 acoustic archtop to return the favor. I'll let you know once it's up. Here's the dilemma:

 

Some of you know I'm chasing after a mid-90's blonde Le Grande since hearing one on youtube. I've been all over the net and no one's giving up any blondes (at least at a reasonable price), which is okay since I don't have the cash yet anyway. But I just played this '39 L5:

 

http://caravanguitars.com/guitars/1939-gibson-l-5-l5n-81/

 

It's in heirloom condition, literally holding history in your hands and tons of tone. The guy said he's willing to consider an offer, but he advised the L5's heritage makes it more of a commodity investment than the Le Grande. So there's the dilemma: buy for love or money? This is a one-time budget. WWJD (What would Johnny Smith do)? sorry, kidding :-)

[Versatile]

From personal experience :blink:

 

It depends on the mind-set of the purchaser

 

The guitar would probably end up unplayed and in it's box merrily appreciating as time goes by...

 

Which is OK and might explain why the guitar has not sold in 2 secs flat...

 

V

 

[JazzGtr]

Personally, I only invest in guitars that I will only play. My maximum single guitar purchase was my Gibson L5 at $5,000 US. And that's the most that I will ever spend on any single guitar. $12,500 is a lot money. I prefer to love my money in the bank.

 

Jazz,

[j45nick]

There is no simple answer here. While I was seeking a big-box Gibson archtop, I looked at a Gibson Super 400 of similar vintage and in similar condition to this L-5. It was priced at $12,500 by the family of the original (!) owner. The problem was that in looking at it, I realized the potential downside of owning and playing an instrument of this value and condition.

 

I would be afraid to play it--no matter how great it was--for fear of creating wear or damaging and de-valuing it. I couldn't justify spending that kind of money on a guitar that was going to sit in the case, no matter how beautiful it was, and no matter how good a long-term investment it might be. Every minute I spent playing it, I would be saying "be careful", rather than enjoying it as a fine guitar.

 

I went through the same exercise when searching for a vintage ES-335: spend $15k-$25K on a late 50's/early 60's model, or look for a more practical player without the potential investment upside (and downside, for that matter)?

 

The bottom line is that it is impossible to foresee the future market for high-end vintage guitars. If you are willing to face the potential of your "investment" depreciating over time, and you can afford it, by all means buy something like this vintage L-5. Otherwise, be more practical.

 

In my case, I ended up buying a late-40's L-7 that needed some tender loving care, and gave it that care. It was a diamond in the rough, and by now it's at least an emerald, if not a diamond. I worry not one bit about fret wear or potential dings, and it's a great musical instrument.

 

As far as the ES 335 goes, I ended up buying a pristine Nashville '59 Historic ES 335 for a fraction of the cost of the "real" thing. At my level of playing skill, it's every bit as good as the vintage guitar would be.

 

There is no "one size fits all" answer to your question.

[jazzman-oosh!]

J45nick,

Really elegantly put - and the other replies no less helpful. I think you know I'm not looking for a "one size fits all solution" - they're very different guitars at least in the obvious sense - I can't get my hands on real Le Grande to find out! I just wanted to go straight to the source and see how much weight Gibson guys would put on collector value. I'm actually surprised at the level of pragmatism here, after all the collector's sites I've been on. funny thing is, I wouldn't be afraid at all - guess it makes me not a collector, but guitars are made to be played but also treated well. That's what gets me about the L5. I was set on the Le Grande, but after playing and hearing it, I immediately thought of Tone Poems 2 whcih features these beauties and it's just begging to be belted (in the nicest sense of the word!) in a combo or big band setting. Shame to see that work and history go to waste. Guess I have to own up to a serious case of G.A.S. :-) BTW, I originally posted this on the general forum, but thought I'd get more insight from the archtop side, so sorry for the duplicate posting. You guys are great, I'll be thinking about your advice all w/e, thanks.

[jazzman-oosh!]

J45nick,

Really elegantly put - and the other replies no less helpful. I think you know I'm not looking for a "one size fits all solution" - they're very different guitars at least in the obvious sense - I can't get my hands on real Le Grande to find out! I just wanted to go straight to the source and see how much weight Gibson guys would put on collector value. I'm actually surprised at the level of pragmatism here, after all the collector's sites I've been on. funny thing is, I wouldn't be afraid at all - guess it makes me not a collector, but guitars are made to be played but also treated well. That's what gets me about the L5. I was set on the Le Grande, but after playing and hearing it, I immediately thought of Tone Poems 2 whcih features these beauties and it's just begging to be belted (in the nicest sense of the word!) in a combo or big band setting. Shame to see that work and history go to waste. Guess I have to own up to a serious case of G.A.S. :-) BTW, I originally posted this on the general forum, but thought I'd get more insight from the archtop side, so sorry for the duplicate posting. You guys are great, I'll be thinking about your advice all w/e, thanks.

[AlanC]

J45nick,

Really elegantly put - and the other replies no less helpful. I think you know I'm not looking for a "one size fits all solution" - they're very different guitars at least in the obvious sense - I can't get my hands on real Le Grande to find out! I just wanted to go straight to the source and see how much weight Gibson guys would put on collector value. I'm actually surprised at the level of pragmatism here, after all the collector's sites I've been on. funny thing is, I wouldn't be afraid at all - guess it makes me not a collector, but guitars are made to be played but also treated well. That's what gets me about the L5. I was set on the Le Grande, but after playing and hearing it, I immediately thought of Tone Poems 2 whcih features these beauties and it's just begging to be belted (in the nicest sense of the word!) in a combo or big band setting. Shame to see that work and history go to waste. Guess I have to own up to a serious case of G.A.S. :-) BTW, I originally posted this on the general forum, but thought I'd get more insight from the archtop side, so sorry for the duplicate posting. You guys are great, I'll be thinking about your advice all w/e, thanks.

 

I've played guitar for many years and have always loved really good guitars. At the age of 21 I owned 5 good Gibsons. All the money I earned, I spent on equipment. But some thirty years later I still regret not buying a couple of guitars that I had the opportunity to own and play. The thing I've found is that a small number of guitars are just wonderful. So if I stumble on one that is great I try to buy it. I now own about 8 arch tops and when I gig I usually play my "68 Johnny Smith but when I'm just playing I use my others.

 

I've never paid $12500 but I have paid $10k for an L5. The L5 in the video clip sounds great and it would tempt me. Why cos its unique, cos its in great condition and cos it sounds great and hopefully plays great. When they sound and play great go for it otherwise you will always think about the one that got away.

 

Good luck, I know that these are really difficult choices.

[stein]

I think with the changes in "collectors" prices, we all have to be leary of what we would call an investment. In the end, guitars will always at least have the potential to have excess value, or value put on it because of things besides the cost to build them, and the sound produced. But in the end, guitars as commodities is shaky ground. You can't get anything for a guitar if no one wants to buy them...and sometimes that happens. Prices change.

 

It is hard to tell a man what to do with his money, because we all have different amounts of it, some of us will not see an extra 12 cake in 10 years, while some will have that every year. And if the guitar is going to spend hours each day in a guy's hands, then it is quite possible to get 12 grand worth out of it even if you wear it out.

 

I think one perspective would be how much would it cost to have a guitar built of that quality today. How many hours of SKILLED work? How does it compare to other guitars? Can you get the same for less?

 

It think in a lot of ways, that guitar is very much an ultimate. Not only is it in fine condition, but the woods look like the prettiest you would likely find. In terms of craftsmanship, it surely is at the top of the chain. If the tone is there, it might be hard to argue the cost when it likely would cost about 8 grand to have one of equal quality built today, and if the guitar has aged well, it might have elements to the sound that you can't get new.

 

On the other hand, there are so many used archtops on the market right now Gibson isn't even making them. Many are going for prices you couldn't hope to have them built for. Good time to aim for one that is under-valued instead of over-valued.

 

I don't think the idea of resale value should have anything to do with it. I think the value comes in what it does in your fingers, your ears, and your soul. A good guitar can enable you to do things and go places, and a great one can allow you to do great things. If you measure the dollar value in your wallet against that, you can't get burned by the market.

 

I also think when I have the money in my wallet, shopping for guitars with the thought I can buy it if it is something special is great fun in the search. Once the money is gone, the search is over. And I think the search should be fun.

[jimmyl51]

I spent way too much time and money over the years looking at this guitar and that guitar and this guitar..........you get the idea. To be frank you are talking about two totally different instruments in your quest here. This L5 that they have on their site appears to be absolutely gorgeous however for this kind of money I would want to see and play it in person. As long as they give you at least 24-48 hours as far as a return policy and you have the bucks GO for it! A 1939 Gibson L5 is one great instrument although this is a non-cutaway. I own a sunrise orange LeGrand which Gibson made only maybe four of as at the time Chet Atkins sued Gibson for not getting reimbursed for the use of his signature instrument color which Gibson used for this LeGrand. Not strictly orange but it has a bit of a reddish hue to it. Beautiful color. In the end if you have the bucks I would go for the L5 if it suits your purposes. With the way the economy is going at present who really can predict what will be worth the money and what won't be worth the bucks as the politics in our country moves forward. Regardless Good Luck! jim in Maine

[roadhog96]

Yah leave your money in the bank and when you die someone else will spend it. I'm with you, $5000.00 would be the max for a guitar and it would have to be very special.

[bobouz]

FWIW - I never look at instruments as investments, and also avoid exact duplication in my collection. They are there to be played, and must offer something unique in tone and/or playability. Another rule of mine is to avoid buying the farm on one piece. If for any reason the relationship turns sour, it could be very difficult to get out from under it in a timely manner (or without losing your shirt). I'd rather maintain more flexibility for future opportunities, and quite often have done trades at a small loss to grab a more desirable piece at a moments notice. Regardless of your approach, hope you have fun with it!

[jazzman-oosh!]

Thanks all for such level-headed, insightful advice. I feel like I've gotten a real balance of feedback - nice to know there's a place to depend on that. After everything said, J45nick's words still ring in my ear: "At my level of playing skill, ..." There's no doubt the L5 has the bona fides in every way, but I don't - at least yet. AlanC also put me back in my place with his 8 archtops of choice to gig with. I'm nowhere near ready to gig, much less own 8 archtops! Nor do I have the cash. I'm already deep into restoring an old L48 and bringing that back to a jewel much like J45nick's L7 (still not as nice I know), so there's my full-body acoustic. The L5 is easy to fall for, and I'm dying to own a premium guitar before I leave this world, but it should go to someone who has paid the dues to play it (or collect it) - I simply couldn't do it justice. I'm gonna keep chasing the unicorn... Thanks as always guys, hope I can repay the advice sometime.

[AlanC]

Thanks all for such level-headed, insightful advice. I feel like I've gotten a real balance of feedback - nice to know there's a place to depend on that. After everything said, J45nick's words still ring in my ear: "At my level of playing skill, ..." There's no doubt the L5 has the bona fides in every way, but I don't - at least yet. AlanC also put me back in my place with his 8 archtops of choice to gig with. I'm nowhere near ready to gig, much less own 8 archtops! Nor do I have the cash. I'm already deep into restoring an old L48 and bringing that back to a jewel much like J45nick's L7 (still not as nice I know), so there's my full-body acoustic. The L5 is easy to fall for, and I'm dying to own a premium guitar before I leave this world, but it should go to someone who has paid the dues to play it (or collect it) - I simply couldn't do it justice. I'm gonna keep chasing the unicorn... Thanks as always guys, hope I can repay the advice sometime.

 

Hi Jazzman,

 

This is just my view but you don't need to justify owning a great guitar. You can just grow with it. My first guitar was a Fender Telecaster owned by a professional musician who sold it to me and at the time I was an absolute novice. Many guitars are not played by their owners so I can't see anything wrong with owning and playing a greater guitar even if you are still learning. It is however a question of money.

 

By the way I've always collected guitars as my hobby so thats why I own more arch tops than I need. Not all of them are great though.

 

Good luck. You sound like you deserve a great guitar

 

 

 

 

 

[Nizzajetset]

Hallo!

 

As I have opened a topic about the Le Grand, I was following your posts very intensivly and wonder, what is the pricerange for a mid 90s Le Grand it would be worth to pay for?

 

Are second hand Le Grand so rare and are the new Le Grand not available in Music Shops in the USA? A dealer in Holland told me, I can order a new Le Grand at the Custom Shop, but have to wait a year.

 

Here in Europe I feel somehow lost finding a fair pricerange for the Le Grand ;-(

[yanez]

hi,

for those who might be interesested, I'm currently selling a LeGrand.

[Dennis D near Milwaukee]

Hallo!

 

As I have opened a topic about the Le Grand, I was following your posts very intensivly and wonder, what is the pricerange for a mid 90s Le Grand it would be worth to pay for?

 

Are second hand Le Grand so rare and are the new Le Grand not available in Music Shops in the USA? A dealer in Holland told me, I can order a new Le Grand at the Custom Shop, but have to wait a year.

 

Here in Europe I feel somehow lost finding a fair pricerange for the Le Grand ;-(

 

My first thought was when you say Europe, wouldn't the exchange rate automatically come into play ? (meaning not good )? I may be wrong, but I believe Gibsons priced in Euro's and/or bought in Europe would be even more expensive than here in the US.

Then,as to value, or what to really pay, I found that sometimes it helps to ask yourself ' Ok, so if I have to pay close to this price, just exactly how wrong am I' ? Would I be wrong by one percent, or two percent, or one-third, or one-half ? If you pay one or two percent too much, BUT get the only Citation in all of Europe and maybe half the US, then maybe you've got a real decision to make. Meaning you may not see another one available for years, if ever.

For what it's worth, I am 65, have played since the '60's and have never seen a Citation for sale at a music store in this country. I saw only one new Super 400 in all that time, and the store had been stuck with it due to a cancellation. Music stores here won't stock those high-end jazz guitars, for a lot of reasons.

And then when these used high-end jazz boxes do come available, sometimes the private sellers dare you to pay what they're asking.

And then, how afraid will you be to ever take it out of your home, for fear of putting a mark on it ?

I am struggling with this right now - - I've just gotten prices from a local luthier to build me an archtop, and the price is almost $5000. I could find the money, but if I did - - would I ever be able to take the guitar to a park and play all day ??? I'm afraid not.

Good luck your decision.

 

Dennis

[JimR56]

hi,

for those who might be interesested, I'm currently selling a LeGrand.

yanez, that's a beauty. I'm not in the market for another guitar, but I'm curious... what year was it made? Is that the pickguard that was on it when you got it? I can't recall seeing a LeGrand with a marbled pickguard that looks like it was made from the original material used from the 1930's to the 1960's. The LeGrands I've seen had marbled guards with a newer material, like this:

 

 

Your pickguard is like the type on an original early 60's Johnny Smith (the predecessor to the LeGrand model), and really adds a touch of class (and perhaps some extra value) to your guitar.

[jdgm]

http://www.guitarvillage.co.uk/product/9125-136/Gibson-Le-Grand-Pre-Owned-2009-Mint-Vintage-Sunburst-Inc-Case.aspx

[yanez]

yanez, that's a beauty. I'm not in the market for another guitar, but I'm curious... what year was it made? Is that the pickguard that was on it when you got it? I can't recall seeing a LeGrand with a marbled pickguard that looks like it was made from the original material used from the 1930's to the 1960's. The LeGrands I've seen had marbled guards with a newer material, like this:

 

 

Your pickguard is like the type on an original early 60's Johnny Smith (the predecessor to the LeGrand model), and really adds a touch of class (and perhaps some extra value) to your guitar.

 

hi jim

I can give you the serial number of the guitar 90708002: I'm not so able to identify the exact year...