mking Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 I purchased a very nice 1960 LG-2 from Gary's Vintage Guitars. I never noticed until recently that on the back of the headstock, up at the very top, the number 2 has been stamped in, just the a single 2 no other numbers. I guess with all the other dings and dents etc I never really noticed it until now. Anyone know what this 2 means? Thanks much. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 It means the guitar is a "second", which usually means that some cosmetic imperfection caused it to be designated as such. After 52 years, that distinction may have blurred, particularly if the guitar has been well-maintained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mking Posted July 28, 2012 Author Share Posted July 28, 2012 I had a feeling that was what it meant. But as you say after all these years there's no way to tell what was wrong. It plays great, sounds great, there are no neck issues or anything important like that, no repaired body cracks etc. Just wear and checking from all the years. Thanks for the reply. Any other good info? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 I had a feeling that was what it meant. But as you say after all these years there's no way to tell what was wrong. It plays great, sounds great, there are no neck issues or anything important like that, no repaired body cracks etc. Just wear and checking from all the years. Thanks for the reply. Any other good info? The LG-2 is a very nice x-braced small-bodied Gibson, and is a classic guitar for country blues and finger-picking. 1960 was very near the last of the really good years for these guitars. Enjoy it. Post photos if you have the time. We love looking at guitars here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mking Posted July 28, 2012 Author Share Posted July 28, 2012 I'll get some pictures up soon. I have a bead on buying a 1949 LG-3. I know they are the same guitar as the LG-2 but with a natural top (vice the sunburst). Anything on that guitar I should know? They are asking $2199.00. It has a very good repaired top crack that went from the bridge to the end of the guitar. No other issues. It is being sold by a Guitar Center store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 It will probably sound exactly like your LG2. Maybe you'd like to take your 2 grand and find a model that offers you a different sound. A mid to late 50's J45 or early 60's Martin d'naught can be had in that range and offer you some variety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mking Posted July 28, 2012 Author Share Posted July 28, 2012 That is a good point. The LG-3 does have a bigger neck which I like and a the teardrop pickguard where my LG-2 has the batwing point thing. I have a killer 2007 True Vintage J-45 and a 1999 Martin HD-28V. I would like a real 50's J-45 though. Since I bought the J-45 TV my Martin rarely gets played anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 That is a good point. The LG-3 does have a bigger neck which I like and a the teardrop pickguard where my LG-2 has the batwing point thing. I have a killer 2007 True Vintage J-45 and a 1999 Martin HD-28V. I would like a real 50's J-45 though. Since I bought the J-45 TV my Martin rarely gets played anymore. You may well have a hard time finding a vintage J-45 that is a better guitar than your TV, especially for the cost. That LG-3 sounds like a very nice guitar to me. Definitely play some pre-1960 J-45's, but take your TV along for comparison. Vintage J-45's vary a lot. Some are superb, others good but not outstanding. And good ones tend to be expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Definitely play some pre-1960 J-45's, but take your TV along for comparison. Vintage J-45's vary a lot. Some are superb, others good but not outstanding. And good ones tend to be expensive. This may be the best advice you will get. The easiest way to get into trouble is to get the notion stuck in your head that you have to own a vintage guitar and then jump on the first one you run across. This means you have to deal with the pressure of having that feeling that you might not run across another one. Years ago when I bought a 1950s SJ I tried three of them out - all made the same year. While they all sounded really good, if I had bought either of the first two I would have been pissed when I got my hands on the third one which was louder and had a tighter and more defined lower and upper end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 It will probably sound exactly like your LG2. Maybe you'd like to take your 2 grand and find a model that offers you a different sound. There should be a noticeable difference in sound. The LG-3 will have scallop X bracing which the later LG-2 does not have. To my ears this makes more of a difference in the smaller body guitars than say the bigger box J-45s as those smaller guitars need as much energy as you can get going from the bridge to the top. The question is - can you live without that Gibson burst. That is something I have always found hard to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mking Posted July 28, 2012 Author Share Posted July 28, 2012 Well fellows I love reading all these great comments. I took the 1960 LG-2 down to Guitar Center and did the A/B thing with the two of them. The LG-2 was brighter and louder no question about it. Plus I really, really gave the LG-3 the once over and wasn't real pleased with the repair on the top crack even though straight on it looked pretty good. Looking across the body at eye level treble side to the bass side I could see the repair is not flat and you can run your fingernail across it. Regarding purchasing the first one I find, I am vary aware that they all can be different but I appreciate the great words of wisdom. Lastly, regarding leaving the Gibson burst, that was probably going to be one of the hardest parts of making the decision, so I agree with you big time. I was not aware of the differences in bracing on the two guitars, that is interesting. I haven't found that info in my research. Thanks again. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62burst Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Wow, you bought a guitar from Gary's? The way that his inventory is widely known for very steep pricing, I pretty much just figured his guitar collection was just a fun aspect of his nest egg, & that he didn't particularly care if he sold many, or not. I hope he was negotiable. It sounds like you've already had the LG for a while now, & that you're enjoying it, irregardless of whether it may've had a finish issue 50 years ago. I would echo what the others have suggested; that if you've got $2.x K available to expand your acoustic palette, then you should go play some early 50's (pre-'54) J-45's. And bring your True Vintage along :). ...And the other question is: Even if Gary knew whether or not you were a Vintage guitar guy, should he have casually mentioned, just to be sure, that you were well aware that the LG was stamped as a 2nd, so that, should you wish to someday sell it, you would not have any surprises? Enjoy that Little Guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mking Posted July 29, 2012 Author Share Posted July 29, 2012 I paid $2350.00 for the 1960 LG-2. He is not negotiable but I did check around and his prices were not that far off from everyone else (Gruhn, Elderly Instruments, Folkways in Canada). He does have a couple of LG-2s that he had for sale when I bought mine two years ago. So he isn't moving them real fast. I am enjoying mine but I will tell you I've never been a big fan of the bigger frets. Still, Gary's guys checked it out, made sure it was set up, and of course there were no issue surprises either (the guitar has none what so ever). Plus he gave me a three day return policy to boot. But I think your are spot on with your comment regarding the stamped 2 on the headstock. That never ever came out in the three conversations I had with him. As a matter of fact, I am ashamed to say I didn't even see it until last night! But it is nota biggie now here in 2012. As I said the guitar has no issues. After the comment above about taking my 2K and looking for a 50's J-45, they all looked to be 4 to 5K. I didn't see anything in the 2K ball park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62burst Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 After the comment above about taking my 2K and looking for a 50's J-45, they all looked to be 4 to 5K. I didn't see anything in the 2K ball park. Right you are on that, but at current prices, you're over halfway to a substiantially different-sounding guitar. Also- Remember, prices in major cities will be higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 In the vintage guitar world of collectability/value, the 2 designation on the headstock of a Gibson doesn't impact a guitar's pricing. George Gruhn, the leading guru of the vintage guitar world has been asked this question throughout the years in his column on numberous occasion in Vintage Guitar Magazine and always responds the same...pretty much along the lines of what's already been expressed in this string, that its some minor cosmetic blemish on it somewhere when it left the factory that doesn't impact the structure or playability (or now the collectability). If you have any questions about the 2 and its non-impact in the vintage guitar market, I suggest you call George Gruhn's store in Nashville (Gruhn's Guitars). Any of the vintage guitar experts there, I'm sure, would be happy to tell you about the 2. Hope this helps. QM aka Jazzman JEff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mking Posted July 30, 2012 Author Share Posted July 30, 2012 I did send Mr. Gruhn a note Friday and yesterday I got a nice e-mail from him stating just what you said. Thanks for the note, I appreciate it. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modoc_333 Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 In the vintage guitar world of collectability/value, the 2 designation on the headstock of a Gibson doesn't impact a guitar's pricing. George Gruhn, the leading guru of the vintage guitar world has been asked this question throughout the years in his column on numberous occasion in Vintage Guitar Magazine and always responds the same...pretty much along the lines of what's already been expressed in this string, that its some minor cosmetic blemish on it somewhere when it left the factory that doesn't impact the structure or playability (or now the collectability). If you have any questions about the 2 and its non-impact in the vintage guitar market, I suggest you call George Gruhn's store in Nashville (Gruhn's Guitars). Any of the vintage guitar experts there, I'm sure, would be happy to tell you about the 2. Hope this helps. QM aka Jazzman JEff Of course he is also trying to sell many guitars with a "2".... and his word isn't the final one on pricing in the vintage market. Buyers determine that. More times than not, a buyer wants to not see the 2. In my experience, dealers say it doesn't matter. Buyers say it does. That means it matters. It doesn't mean you shouldn't love a guitar that was a 2nd. It is something to consider if looking for resale value down the road though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Naturally, its up to the buyer. But, George Gruhn's role in influencing the vintage guitar market and its pricing can't be denied. He was a founding father of the vintage guitar market (if not the sole founding father) and his expertise has guided the vintage guitar market for about 30 years. True, he also benefits from the information he puts out...but, likewise there is no doubting that he definitely shapes the vintage guitar market, just as a well thought economist shapes the financial market with comments...and, since its inception, no single figure has defined the vintage guitar market more than George Gruhn. If George Gruhn says something is so, it may not really be so...but, the vintage guitar market none-the-less overall responds as though it is (and has since it was created.). So when George Gruhn says the 2 doesn't matter, the majority of the market responds that its so...although, of course, not necessarily everyone. What will happen after George Gruhn loses his influence on the vintage guitar market is, of course, anyone's guess. But, for now, George Gruhn is its reigning guru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modoc_333 Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I think he already has lost influence. What you say about him is true, but I think that since information flows more freely these days through the internet and more shopping options are available, his influence has weakened and buyers have gained more power. Just my 2¢ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I think he already has lost influence. What you say about him is true, but I think that since information flows more freely these days through the internet and more shopping options are available, his influence has weakened and buyers have gained more power. Just my 2¢ Agree 100%. Yearly price guides may not even remotely reflect current market conditions, and you have to wonder how well some higher-end vintage pieces are moving at Gruhn's and other upper-end vintage dealers. Auctions such as ebay are actually pretty a pretty good barometer of at least the lower end (sub $5K) of the vintage market, as they accurately reflect what buyers are willing to pay at any point in time, and there is generally a pretty good availability of stock. The upper end of the market is more rarified, both in terms of the number and quality of instruments available, but even that market has suffered greatly in this recession, as has the collectibles market in general. For those of us who buy guitars--both contemporary and vintage--primarily as musical instruments rather than collectibles, the market is pretty good right now. Less good for sellers. As a reformed semi-collector for whom playability trumps collectibility, the cost of repairs required by a lot of vintage guitars is a major concern in making the vintage vs. modern decision. This is particularly true when both Gibson and Martin are producing many great instruments now, including those that closely mimic their best vintage instruments that are out of bounds price-wise for most of us. How many of us can really afford or justify paying $12K for a decent banner SJ, for example? At the same time, the new prices of the best "repro" guitars--in Gibson's case, guitars such as the J-45 and L-OO Legends--are quite high, but those original buyers are often getting hammered on the re-sale market. Unless you are a pretty serious player, it may be hard to justify buying a $5K guitar, much less having $20K or more tied up in guitars, as many of us here do. Knowledge is power, and we no longer have to make pilgrimages to the few retail shrines that have collections of vintage guitars to find good ones. The guy with his grandfather's pre-war D-28 and an internet connection is a market maker today, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I think he already has lost influence. What you say about him is true, but I think that since information flows more freely these days through the internet and more shopping options are available, his influence has weakened and buyers have gained more power. Just my 2¢ Good point here. I've been able to move a price up and down on any given guitar purchase or sale based on different criteria, not the least of which is timing, the hardest to plan for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mking Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 I think back in 1960 when the guitar left the factory the stamped 2 would have been a significant factor in the purchase and in the next few years to follow regarding resale. But now, there is no way to tell what the cosmetic problem was since it is now 52 years later. Whatever it was it is most likely gone by the wayside with all the checking and the various dings, rubs and such. But the good thing about this particular guitar it has not been bashed around through the years. The wear is from playing and the environment, overall the guitar has been taken pretty good care of and of course sounds great. How in the world do you insert a picture on this site? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modoc_333 Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Knowledge is power, and we no longer have to make pilgrimages to the few retail shrines that have collections of vintage guitars to find good ones. The guy with his grandfather's pre-war D-28 and an internet connection is a market maker today, too. THIS! The internet has made EVERYONE the new trend setter. Honestly, when I am selling or buying a vintage piece (through the store or personal) George plays no real part. In fact, if I see his prices, I assume he is too high. People pay for the right to say they bought it from George. It gives credibility to the instrument. I also never hear buyers mention George in negotiations. There are too many other (more accurate) sources for them to quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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