ZuluV1 Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Hi, I'm sure this forum gets slammed with paranoid people such as myself asking whether or not they have just bought a fake, so apologies for another one. Here's the deal. I purchased my Epiphone Les Paul Standard on eBay for £400. This came with Gibson 496R and 500T Pups, new pots and switch, so basically, fully upgraded. It also came with a nice flight case, but that's not really relevant. The guitar looks and plays really nice and sounds great, so normally, I would be overjoyed with it and could sleep easy safe in the knowledge that I own a nice guitar. However, certain things on it make me wonder whether it is genuine or not. I have attached pictures, but the tuners on the back are not straight, the serial number is printed on the wood, not in it, and when you look closely at the back, you can see a line around the body which makes it look like its a thin piece of laminate rather than solid wood. Don't get me wrong, it is very smooth and polished, with no rough edges etc. I would really appreciate it, if you guys could take a look at the pictures and let me know your thoughts. Thanks in advance for your time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damian Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Why didn't you ask if it could be a Korean fake ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZuluV1 Posted October 2, 2012 Author Share Posted October 2, 2012 Most fakes seem to come from China, but ok, I'm open to ideas ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 There are some guys who frequent this forum who have great knowledge on the matter that can likely tell you for sure. And I mean DEEP knowledge. It isn't me, but I might say that from what I can see, these may not be flags that it is not the geniune article. For the most part, what makes a fake vs a genuine isn't just a "quality" thing, but rather a matter that those making them are doing so without proper permission. There are fakes of varying quality, with details better or worse than the genuine Epi. Some of these the experts can use to tell you if it is genuine or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L5Larry Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Aren't all Epiphones fake Gibsons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Aren't all Epiphones fake Gibsons? Well, yea. But we might also say that a Gibson made from the Norlin period on, is a fake Gibson made by Gibson. Or, a CBS Fender isn't a real Fender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resigned Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Aren't all Epiphones fake Gibsons? BOOOOO !! (lol!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigneil Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Aren't all Epiphones fake Gibsons? Nope, the ones which are Gibson derived models are licenced copies. And all the other epi's out there are wonderful instruments in their own right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanH Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 A few points from me: -Genuine Epiphone LPs don't always have the tuners bang in line -Epiphone LPs have a veneer front and back -The volume/tone pots on this one might not run dead parallel with the length of the fretboard but it could be the angle at which the picture was taken that makes them appear that way -The headstock logo is right on the money One major question for the OP... Who did you buy it from on eBay and do you have the link to the seller? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Pete is problably the most expert, and he can't tell from these pics. I would point out that the pics, including the body, are at such an angle to skew the perspective. It actually looks to me that the knobs and bridge(s) are in the same place as the pic of Wiggy's guitar. The clue about the washers on the tuners I think tells that at LEAST the washers were likely changed. They aren't the type that come stock with those tuners, either the cheaper versions or the better type. I personally haven't seem those on any Epi, fake or genuine. I have seem them on Schaller Mini's. With the upgraded pups AND wiring, and possibly the washers, it is obvious this guitar has been doctored, so who knows what else might have been replaced. I am going to lean toward genuine, not because I am more expert than Pete, but because if he can't find anything conclusive, there might not be. He usually does find some proof when a fake comes along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Thanks how do you explain the missing logo I doubt it is the same model. And I doubt it would have had gold hardware that was changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 When has Epi ever made a LesPaul with this 'antique natural' top - other than on a Custom ? That is far, far beyond my scope of knowledge to be able to comprehend such an answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hydrasports205 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I'm not an expert by any stretch, but with the exception of the washers everything looks normal on it to me. I've had several Epi's that had tuners slightly skewed - heck my Del Rey I just sold had one that was off. Course, maybe it was a fake...DOH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggy Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 When has Epi ever made a LesPaul with this 'antique natural' top - other than on a Custom ? They made the Standard in Natural (i.e. mine) for a short period between mid 2008 & early 2009. Numbers produced were very low so they are rare as rocking horse doo doo. AFAIK they didn't produce any into 2010 which rings alarm bells, also the flame veneer doesn't look right. Finally all the Natural standards I've seen have a Honduras veneer on the back to hide the three piece body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damian Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 If I had to say real or fake; I'd say fake...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggy Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Just had another look at the pics and, don't know if it's significant, but the frets seem to go much further into the binding than mine do. Also the Epi Standard Natural came with speed knobs as standard (mine you I swapped mine out so the previous owner of yours may well have done too) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KVL Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 If it plays great and you're happy with it, then it really shouldn't matter much. Pete makes a good point though with his example of the new tribute plus with warranty for the same price. Sometimes eBay deals are not deals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZuluV1 Posted October 11, 2012 Author Share Posted October 11, 2012 Thanks everyone for the replies. I contacted Gibson's European customer services, with the photos and serial number. They came back to me a few days later with a signed letter confirming that the guitar is indeed..............FAKE! So now I've opened a case and trying to return it for a refund through eBay.. The most gutting part is that I love the guitar. It looks and plays beautifully. It's the best guitar I've played. However, I just can't justify paying £400 on something I know is not genuine. What happens if it falls apart in a few months? I couldn't even sell it as an Epiphone as I know it's not real. So, once I have the refund, I'm looking at the Epiphone Les Paul Tribute Plus. Anyone had any experience with these? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigneil Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 That's poop. Hope you get the dosh back ok. You are much better buying from an authorised dealer if you can find one. If you don't get the money back you could refinish the headstock with your own logo or name on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctguy1955 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Good Luck ! Hope things work out for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 The best way I know to spot a Chinese fake, is that they all use a scarf-joint about a third of the way down the neck to join the neck-top and neck bottom. Epiphones have a neck/headstock join at the base of the headstock. On a natural guitar, this should be easy to see. Older Epiphones (say 10 years or so) also used to use this manufacturing technique, but have not for some time. Yours looks like an Epiphone to me, but I can't tell 100% from the photos posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggy Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 The best way I know to spot a Chinese fake, is that they all use a scarf-joint about a third of the way down the neck to join the neck-top and neck bottom. Epiphones have a neck/headstock join at the base of the headstock. On a natural guitar, this should be easy to see. Older Epiphones (say 10 years or so) also used to use this manufacturing technique, but have not for some time. Yours looks like an Epiphone to me, but I can't tell 100% from the photos posted. As Gibson EU confirmed (see above post) it is a fake. The two main give-aways are the top itself (Epiphone veneers simply don't look like that - shame because it looks really lovely) and the fact that they simply didn't produce the model it's purported to be at that date. From a personal point of view - if the construction was decent I'd have kept it and put my own logo on the headstock as it looks lovely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 On closer look (and reading all the posts), there are a few things that don't look quite right. Too bad the OP got duped. I'd expect the pickups aren't of Epiphone quality, either. And, I've heard of China-fake Grovers floating around, too. So, I'd be surprised if they were actual Grover tuners, as well. And, the lack of the locking bridge and stop-tail parts, would be another place to look. That's an Epiphone exclusive design. But, I always look for that odd mid-span neck joint. It seems to be on all the fakes - Gibson fakes, PRS fakes, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZuluV1 Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 Well, after Gibson EU confirmed to me it was a fake, eBay ruled in my favour and said that I had to destroy and dispose of the guitar I wasn't expecting that!! I had to sign a declaration "under the penalty of perjury" that I had destroyed it within 5 days in order to receive the refund. The seller was advised and let's just say was rather unhappy about it. He did not believe that I had destroyed it and he would take legal action against me if I didn't return his property to him. Unfortunately, it was too late, and I had already taken an axe to this axe..I sent him the pictures... It was such a shame. eBay's policy is not to return counterfit goods as they can be sold on to others. So anyway, I got my money back and the case is closed. I have just ordered an Epiphone Les Paul Tribute Plus in Midnight ebony from Dawsons so at least I know this time it will be genuine. Thanks again for all your replies and advice.. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dporto Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Im sorry to hear that your epi was a fake. I can just imagine how you feel as you fell in love with the looks and the sound. I recently bought a used epi and was sitting in a hatchback and when I was viewing the guitar, I could only see the frets in the 12th fret area, as my eyes are very bad. To look at the guitar in that cramped area was my fault, but I had brought my vox mini amp to test out the guitar, and was in that position of sitting in the back when I looked at it. I learned a very good lesson to always really look hard at a guitar and not just the body...the frets and neck are very important too. When I got the guitar home, I saw this in the 3rd fret area: http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae168/CTguy1955/Fretsworn.jpg I was able to return the guitar because I could not afford to have the 5 or 6 bad frets replaced and then the board leveled. When I returned it, I felt like you do now, only in your case, it was the fault of the seller. In my case, even though the seller said the guitar was in Excellent condition, it was up to me to know the frets were in bad shape, and I just did not see it. Good luck with your new purchase, as I have had good luck with my new one as well !!!! http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae168/CTguy1955/SAM_56361.jpg neck http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae168/CTguy1955/SAM_5635.jpg Body Wow, that's some heavy fret wear!!! I've had guitars for over twenty years and never wore grooves in any of the frets like that. Just for future reference, if that sort of opportunity ever presents itself again, I would recommend offering the seller a substantially reduced price (say at least $150 - more likely $200 for a bound neck) for the guitar - that is if you really like it and it''s in good shape other than the frets... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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