Convert Epi LP Jr Special I to tuneamatic and stopbar

[glennc]

Hello,

In another thread I mentioned I purchased a new Epiphone Les Paul Jr. Special I. It has an un-notched fixed compensated tailpiece. I have found some good info, thanks Willy, on adjustable intonation tailpieces with notches.

First off, because of budget, what has more influence on keeping the guitar in tune, the tuners or the original tailpiece? I will replace the tuners, just would like some opinions on quality tuners of less expense than say Kluson and should I change them or the tailpiece first to get the best results. BTW are there any quality tuners that are a direct replacement for the Epi Special Tuners, maybe just need the screw holes moved?

Is the badass tailpiece something that I can do myself without having to file the saddle notches?

Secondly a thought came to mind, that is to convert the guitar to a tuneamatic bridge and regular stopbar. I really like the guitar and think if it can be done moderately inexpensively it would come out nice. Does the Special I tailpiece have the same stud spacing as the Epi tuneamatic? Could that just be replaced and holes and studs installed for a plain stopbar?

As always your information and opinions are appreciated!

Glenn

[brad1]

IMO, the tuners have more of an affect on the tuning than the tailpiece. The tailpiece would have more affect on intonation though.

 

I am not a big fan of wraparound bridges. And many people do replace them with a regular stop bar.

But if you replace the wraparound with a plain stop bar, aren't you going to need room to put in a bridge as well?

The stop bar would have to be farther back from the pup than the holes of the original bridge.

And the holes would knot line up. You would have to fill the holes and drill knew ones for the bridge.

Then you'd have to drill new ones for the new stop bar a little farther back, toward the strap pin.

 

I may have misunderstood you, and given you wrong advice. I do that quite often.

But I am confident if I have, someone will correct me.

Good luck in whatever you choose to do. :)

[L5Larry]

First off, because of budget, what has more influence on keeping the guitar in tune, the tuners or the original tailpiece?

The great majority of tuning problems are caused by a badly filed, fitted, slotted nut. This should be the first thing addressed, and will solve many tuning issues.

 

Is the badass tailpiece something that I can do myself without having to file the saddle notches?

The last one I bought (about 1975 or '76) came un-notched.

 

 

Secondly a thought came to mind, that is to convert the guitar to a tuneamatic bridge and regular stopbar.

The wrap-around tailpiece/bridge combo is highly touted among players looking for the maximum sustain and tone. Other than the intonation issues, it is a GREAT system. The minute you add more "pieces", whether it be a wrap-around with adjustable saddles, or a separate stopbar and tune-o-matic, you are affecting the string anchorage and vibration transfer to the body of the guitar (which is what creates the tone and sustain). I would first try the Gibson style wrap-around which has the zig-zag lightning bolt looking saddle ridge across the top.

[glennc]

IMO, the tuners have more of an affect on the tuning than the tailpiece. The tailpiece would have more affect on intonation though.

 

I am not a big fan of wraparound bridges. And many people do replace them with a regular stop bar.

But if you replace the wraparound with a plain stop bar, aren't you going to need room to put in a bridge as well?

The stop bar would have to be farther back from the pup than the holes of the original bridge.

And the holes would knot line up. You would have to fill the holes and drill knew ones for the bridge.

Then you'd have to drill new ones for the new stop bar a little farther back, toward the strap pin.

 

I may have misunderstood you, and given you wrong advice. I do that quite often.

But I am confident if I have, someone will correct me.

Good luck in whatever you choose to do. :)

 

Howdy Brad1,

I meant to replace the current tailpiece with the bridge, but you noted that they do not line up and I would have to have the tailpiece holes filled and redrilled for the bridge and then new holes drilled for the regular stopbar. Sounds like it is not economically worthwhile for me. Thanks for the info!

Glenn

[RobinTheHood]

I would first try the Gibson style wrap-around which has the zig-zag lightning bolt looking saddle ridge across the top.

 

I think the guitar already has Epiphone's version of this. He said it is compensated, but not notched. That would indicate that it has the saddle ridges across the top. I know that my SG Junior came this way. Its probably pretty standard these days.

 

As for being notched, the strings should create notches after being used for awhile. This was a problem with the SG Junior I bought, though. Whomever strung the guitar didnt make sure that the strings were spaced evenly on the bridge "saddles". The strings started to notch the saddle in the wrong places. Instead of filing it down and ruining the chrome, I just put a different one on and made sure the strings were spaced accordingly..

[glennc]

The great majority of tuning problems are caused by a badly filed, fitted, slotted nut. This should be the first thing addressed, and will solve many tuning issues.

 

 

The last one I bought (about 1975 or '76) came un-notched.

 

 

 

The wrap-around tailpiece/bridge combo is highly touted among players looking for the maximum sustain and tone. Other than the intonation issues, it is a GREAT system. The minute you add more "pieces", whether it be a wrap-around with adjustable saddles, or a separate stopbar and tune-o-matic, you are affecting the string anchorage and vibration transfer to the body of the guitar (which is what creates the tone and sustain). I would first try the Gibson style wrap-around which has the zig-zag lightning bolt looking saddle ridge across the top.

 

Hello L5Larry,

Thanks for the help. I will eventually get the nut changed, if that doesn't cure the tuning issue then I guess I should go for the tuners. The badass tailpieces I've seen all have pre-cut notches. Not a bad price, either. The Special I has intonation ridges but there is no notch for the strings and they are spaced solely by the sting tension. They don't look even, I didn't measure them. I am wondering if the Gibson you mention will even fit the original stud placement. Mainly I am just having to constantly tune it. Probably take it in for a set-up and have a tech look it over.

Still would like to get tuners that are quality and have no post drilling and then I can do it myself and save some bucks. Much appreciated!

Glenn

[RobinTheHood]

If the strings arent evenly spaced, then its probably not intonating properly either. And though I agree with larry about the nut slot being the cause of most tuning stability problems, changing the tuners is probably a good idea. You can usually tell if the tuners are causing any problems because you will feel slippage while tuning up. Two or three of the tuners on my Junior were slipping, but I replaced them before I even bothered to find out if they were going to be problematic.

 

Also, Larry said "Gibson-style", which is what is already on your guitar. Most likely an actual Gibson bridge will not fit your LP Special. StewMac and Guitar Fetish have some cheap alternatives for a wraparound bridge with adjustable saddles.

[glennc]

If the strings arent evenly spaced, then its probably not intonating properly either. And though I agree with larry about the nut slot being the cause of most tuning stability problems, changing the tuners is probably a good idea. You can usually tell if the tuners are causing any problems because you will feel slippage while tuning up. Two or three of the tuners on my Junior were slipping, but I replaced them before I even bothered to find out if they were going to be problematic.

 

Also, Larry said "Gibson-style", which is what is already on your guitar. Most likely an actual Gibson bridge will not fit your LP Special. StewMac and Guitar Fetish have some cheap alternatives for a wraparound bridge with adjustable saddles.

 

Hello RTH,

I double checked and the are not evenly spaced, and I see your point on their intonation. The tuners on this guitar are pretty sloppy. So I will probably go with a new nut and tuners first. Thanks for your help!

Glenn

[glennc]

Hello RTH,

I double checked and the are not evenly spaced, and I see your point on their intonation. The tuners on this guitar are pretty sloppy. So I will probably go with a new nut and tuners first. Thanks for your help!

Glenn

 

Howdy again,

Finally figured the cost to do everything to the LP JR. Special I and it was too much for the feel of the guitar. Decided to return it and get a Vintage G-400 SG with regular bridge and stopbar. Hope I don't miss the P-90's too much {:-|!

Glenn

[Bluemans335]

Howdy again,

Finally figured the cost to do everything to the LP JR. Special I and it was too much for the feel of the guitar. Decided to return it and get a Vintage G-400 SG with regular bridge and stopbar. Hope I don't miss the P-90's too much {:-|!

Glenn

 

Finally. I was thinking of the time and money you were looking at putting into an entry-level guitar, when you can find great deals on used ones that are much better to begin with. I don't know why guys do that, but you came to your senses before taking the plunge. A $100 guitar with $300 of upgrades is still a $100 guitar.

 

No need to give up P-90's with your SG. GFS makes an affordable HB-sized P-90 called the 'Mean 90', which is highly-regarded on the Duncan forum (and we're notoriously picky there). I have a G-400 with twin P-90's, and another with one in the neck and an HB bridge.

[Whitmore Willy]

Hope I don't miss the P-90's too much {:-|!

No need to give up P-90's with your SG. GFS makes an affordable HB-sized P-90 called the 'Mean 90', which is highly-regarded on the Duncan forum (and we're notoriously picky there). I have a G-400 with twin P-90's, and another with one in the neck and an HB bridge.

+1

The Dream 90's are around $30 and the Mean 90's are only about $5 more. Hard to beat at that price.

I put a set of Means in my Grandson's Special II and he loves 'em!

 

 

Willy

[glennc]

+1

The Dream 90's are around $30 and the Mean 90's are only about $5 more. Hard to beat at that price.

I put a set of Means in my Grandson's Special II and he loves 'em!

 

 

Willy

 

Wow Willy,

That is new to me. Price is good and it looks great. Thanks again for your knowledge and info!!

Glenn

[glennc]

Finally. I was thinking of the time and money you were looking at putting into an entry-level guitar, when you can find great deals on used ones that are much better to begin with. I don't know why guys do that, but you came to your senses before taking the plunge. A $100 guitar with $300 of upgrades is still a $100 guitar.

 

No need to give up P-90's with your SG. GFS makes an affordable HB-sized P-90 called the 'Mean 90', which is highly-regarded on the Duncan forum (and we're notoriously picky there). I have a G-400 with twin P-90's, and another with one in the neck and an HB bridge.

 

Thank you Bluemans335,

I've never heard of these pickups. Will investigate. Can't wait for the G-400 to get here. Appreciate your time and knowledge!

Glenn

[Bluemans335]

Thank you Bluemans335,

I've never heard of these pickups. Will investigate. Can't wait for the G-400 to get here. Appreciate your time and knowledge!

Glenn

 

And, as if that's not enough (hold on to your hat)...P-90's have two bar magnets in them, laying side-by-side repelling (same magnets HB's use). Most P-90's come with two A5's, but...in a matter of minutes and for only a few dollars, you can easily change a magnet or two to dial in the EQ you want. For instance, If I want a little fuller-sounding neck P-90, I'll use an A5/A4. If I want it a little brighter and less bassy, an A5/A3. Lindy Fralin uses twin A4's in his P-90's, and BG Pickups use A4/A2. There's a whole world of tonal possibilities waiting to be explored.

 

In the bridge I like warm, rich tones, and favor an A8/A4 or A8/A5. Because P-90's have a 2-to-1 magnet-to-coil ratio, magnets are more influential in them compared to an HB, which has a 1/2-to-1 ratio. For those that don't know, each kind of magnet is made of a different mix of metals, which alters it's magnetic field, and therefore what part of string vibrations it 'reads'. That means changing magnets changes EQ's. Rather than buying PU after PU, as many guys do, you can usually get the tones you want much cheaper, and faster, with a mag swap.

 

Now you know.

[glennc]

And, as if that's not enough (hold on to your hat)...P-90's have two bar magnets in them, laying side-by-side repelling (same magnets HB's use). Most P-90's come with two A5's, but...in a matter of minutes and for only a few dollars, you can easily change a magnet or two to dial in the EQ you want. For instance, If I want a little fuller-sounding neck P-90, I'll use an A5/A4. If I want it a little brighter and less bassy, an A5/A3. Lindy Fralin uses twin A4's in his P-90's, and BG Pickups use A4/A2. There's a whole world of tonal possibilities waiting to be explored.

 

In the bridge I like warm, rich tones, and favor an A8/A4 or A8/A5. Because P-90's have a 2-to-1 magnet-to-coil ratio, magnets are more influential in them compared to an HB, which has a 1/2-to-1 ratio. For those that don't know, each kind of magnet is made of a different mix of metals, which alters it's magnetic field, and therefore what part of string vibrations it 'reads'. That means changing magnets changes EQ's. Rather than buying PU after PU, as many guys do, you can usually get the tones you want much cheaper, and faster, with a mag swap.

 

Now you know.

 

Wow man! I did not know that. The concept of altering the pickups never crossed my mind. Sounds very precise and intricate. Maybe above my skill level.

I am going to play it for a while and hear how they sound. Except for the P-90 jones, I would normally think of changing the humbuckers to a 57 style pickup. But the prices of the GFS really makes me want to give them a try. I have a Fender Blues Jr., which of the GFS do you think would give a more Gibson P-90 sound, the dream or the mean? Thanks for all the knowledge!

Glenn

[Bluemans335]

GFS 'Mean 90's' are much more popular, and sound much better, than their 'Dream 90's'

 

This is low tech stuff. Any 12 year old kid can change magnets in a guitar PU. There's online tutorials available. Basically:

 

- Loosen the strings, and push them aside.

- Remove the screws that hold the PU to the guitar (4 for a HB, 2 for a P-90).

- Flip the PU over and partially unscrew the screws holding the baseplate to the coils (again, 4 for a HB and 2 for a P-90). You don't need to unscrew these all the way.

- In a HB, they'll be tape over the coils, unpeel it patially, and you'll see some wires at one end. Gently push them slightly, so they're out of the way. Behind them is the magnet. Use a small blade screwdriver to push the mag out. Wax may hold the magnet in place; if so, I'll use the screwdriver to lift up the coils a bit, to break the magnet free of the wax on the coils and baseplate, some guys soften the wax with a blow dryer. When the old mag is out halfway, hold the new mag next to it for orientation: ends repel, sides attract. Slide the old mag out all the way and slide the new one in. Tighten the 4 base plate screws (don't overtighten), put the tape in place, and screw the PU back in the guitar. Tighten strings and retune.

- In P-90's, there are two magnets side-by-side, separated by the pole piece screws. Same process for sliding them out and orientation. If you want to change both magnets, do one at a time.

 

The whole process is 10 or 15 minutes, the bulk of it being loosening strings and retuning. Addiction FX carries a wide variety of guitar magnets and has low prices. Whatever mags you get, ask that they be standard-size and fully-charged. If you have any cheap old Asian HB's or P-90's, you can try it on them first.

 

Always play a PU a while, and see how you like it. If you need more, or less treble, or mids, or it's too bassy, or the low end is too loose, etc, then a mag swap will probably fix those. What all too often happens is a guy buys a HB or P-90, it doesn't sound quite like he had hoped, so he buys another, and then another, always hoping for the best. He winds up with a bunch of PU's he sells for a loss. He's frustrated, spent a lot of time and money, and still may not have the tones he wants. The way to avoid that is determining exactly what you need more or less of, and then trying a magnet that is likely to do that. Maybe try a couple magnets; that's still less than $10.

 

Here's an example of where mag swaps really helped me, the 498T/490R set in many Gibson guitars. The bridge is bright and thin (A5 magnet), the neck is warm and dark (A2 magnet). Because they're such opposites in EQ, many players have a hard time getting one amp EQ setting to work well for both PU's. You see a lot of used 498T's and 490R's being sold because of that. I put an A5 in the 490R, which adds treble and opens up the sound; much more clarity. In the 498T, I warm it with an A8 or UOA5, which also add mids; gives a fuller, richer sound. Each PU sounds much better individually, and they balance much better with each other.

[glennc]

GFS 'Mean 90's' are much more popular, and sound much better, than their 'Dream 90's'

 

This is low tech stuff. Any 12 year old kid can change magnets in a guitar PU. There's online tutorials available. Basically:

 

- Loosen the strings, and push them aside.

- Remove the screws that hold the PU to the guitar (4 for a HB, 2 for a P-90).

- Flip the PU over and partially unscrew the screws holding the baseplate to the coils (again, 4 for a HB and 2 for a P-90). You don't need to unscrew these all the way.

- In a HB, they'll be tape over the coils, unpeel it patially, and you'll see some wires at one end. Gently push them slightly, so they're out of the way. Behind them is the magnet. Use a small blade screwdriver to push the mag out. Wax may hold the magnet in place; if so, I'll use the screwdriver to lift up the coils a bit, to break the magnet free of the wax on the coils and baseplate, some guys soften the wax with a blow dryer. When the old mag is out halfway, hold the new mag next to it for orientation: ends repel, sides attract. Slide the old mag out all the way and slide the new one in. Tighten the 4 base plate screws (don't overtighten), put the tape in place, and screw the PU back in the guitar. Tighten strings and retune.

- In P-90's, there are two magnets side-by-side, separated by the pole piece screws. Same process for sliding them out and orientation. If you want to change both magnets, do one at a time.

 

The whole process is 10 or 15 minutes, the bulk of it being loosening strings and retuning. Addiction FX carries a wide variety of guitar magnets and has low prices. Whatever mags you get, ask that they be standard-size and fully-charged. If you have any cheap old Asian HB's or P-90's, you can try it on them first.

 

Always play a PU a while, and see how you like it. If you need more, or less treble, or mids, or it's too bassy, or the low end is too loose, etc, then a mag swap will probably fix those. What all too often happens is a guy buys a HB or P-90, it doesn't sound quite like he had hoped, so he buys another, and then another, always hoping for the best. He winds up with a bunch of PU's he sells for a loss. He's frustrated, spent a lot of time and money, and still may not have the tones he wants. The way to avoid that is determining exactly what you need more or less of, and then trying a magnet that is likely to do that. Maybe try a couple magnets; that's still less than $10.

 

Here's an example of where mag swaps really helped me, the 498T/490R set in many Gibson guitars. The bridge is bright and thin (A5 magnet), the neck is warm and dark (A2 magnet). Because they're such opposites in EQ, many players have a hard time getting one amp EQ setting to work well for both PU's. You see a lot of used 498T's and 490R's being sold because of that. I put an A5 in the 490R, which adds treble and opens up the sound; much more clarity. In the 498T, I warm it with an A8 or UOA5, which also add mids; gives a fuller, richer sound. Each PU sounds much better individually, and they balance much better with each other.

 

If an when I get the nerve up, may I get some suggestions from you? You make it sound easier than I assumed. Thanks for your wealth of knowledge!

Glenn

[Bluemans335]

If an when I get the nerve up, may I get some suggestions from you? You make it sound easier than I assumed. Thanks for your wealth of knowledge!

Glenn

 

PM me anytime, that goes for anyone here. I'm on the Duncan forum as Blueman335, you can always reach me there too.

[glennc]

PM me anytime, that goes for anyone here. I'm on the Duncan forum as Blueman335, you can always reach me there too.

 

Cool and many thanks!

Glenn

[buddhuu]

+1

The Dream 90's are around $30 and the Mean 90's are only about $5 more. Hard to beat at that price.

I put a set of Means in my Grandson's Special II and he loves 'em!

 

 

Willy

 

Willy, where did you get a scratchplate to fit the Special II?

[Whitmore Willy]

Willy, where did you get a scratchplate to fit the Special II?

I started with a Gibson style pickguard.

Traced it onto a piece of construction paper.

Used the pickguard to redraw the bottom curve at the right height.

(Also did slight adjustment to pickup spacing)

 

When I had the template cut to where I wanted it, I retraced it back onto the back of the pickguard.

 

I used a Dremmel to cut it down...not too close.

I completed the shaping with a file.

Finished with sandpaper.

 

Used a needle as a center punch for the screws in the guitar body.

Drilled the holes with this:

 

 

http://www.sears.com/skill-tech-pin-vise-set/p-00940737000P?prdNo=1&blockNo=1&blockType=G1

 

Willy

[buddhuu]

I started with a Gibson style pickguard.

Traced it onto a piece of construction paper.

Used the pickguard to redraw the bottom curve at the right height.

(Also did slight adjustment to pickup spacing)

 

When I had the template cut to where I wanted it, I retraced it back onto the back of the pickguard.

 

I used a Dremmel to cut it down...not too close.

I completed the shaping with a file.

Finished with sandpaper.

 

Used a needle as a center punch for the screws in the guitar body.

Drilled the holes with this:

 

 

http://www.sears.com/skill-tech-pin-vise-set/p-00940737000P?prdNo=1&blockNo=1&blockType=G1

 

Willy

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

Excellent job. Looks great. :)

 

I'm shopping for a Special at the moment. I may give it a go myself.

[glennc]

Cliff Notes to long story. Received the Epi G-400 Vintage, pitiful IMHO quality, finish and playability, returned. Got good deal on Gibson Melody Maker, bad electronics, quality, fit and finish and a non-intonated stopbar tailpiece, returned.... In a fit of fairy-tale thinking I used the money and more and ordered a Gibson LP Jr. Special with P-90s. Unfortunately, reality and the economy caught up with me. I was compelled to cancel that order.

Since Gibson said that the string spacing issues noted on this and other threads in reference to the Epiphone LP Jr. Special I P90s might be a quality issue and it could be repaired under warranty, I decided to give the TV Worn Yellow version another try.

Waiting for it to arrive....... Fingers again crossed. The vendor stated that they would open boxes and find a guitar that was within spec and didn't have electronic issues, same vendor as the Gibson Melody Maker.

The situation is what it is and I will again eventually proceed on an upgrade path.

I've read that the Badass tailpiece will not sit close enough to the body to get an acceptable string height and action. Anyone know if this is true, I believe I may have seen this on this forum and forgot about it. Probably going for the setup and nut first, if the guitar is in good enough shape. That is after I play it awhile, greasy fingers!!!!

Glenn