onewilyfool Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 When did it start? When did Ren start making the good ones? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 Let me not play clever Eric here, but I've heard that f.x. the Hummingbirds from the early 'turning the ship period' – which means late 80ties - should be worth goin' for. Not many acoustics from that calendar-zone, if you think about it. The theory is that they started with the biggest icons : Les Paul and the mighty H. Look forward to hear from the real knowers - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 . Flatiron was purchased in 1987 and I think the first guitars started coming out in 1989/1990(?). It took a couple years to get the workers all on the same page, so I'd say good stuff by the mid-90s (totally subjective B) ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrorod Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 I would say ...early to mid 90's as mentioned above. That being said....some good ones probably slipped thru in the meantime! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-1854Me Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 1989. I think the earliest 1989 Bozeman serial numbers I've seen represent guitars that were assigned those numbers in the middle third of that year. Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rar Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 Got to disagree with the last couple of posts. The first few years, Bozeman was turning out essentially hand-built guitars. While Ren just keeps getting better and better at building guitars that capture classic Gibson tone, those very early guitars are great in their own right. The mid-'90s was a time of huge expansion in production, because of the Gibson centennial in '94, and -- as always when there is a production surge -- average quality definitely suffered for a couple of years. No way I'd identify the mid-'90s as the time when Bozeman started turning out fine guitars. -- Bob R P.S. Fred snuck a post in while I was writing this one. Of course, I would never disagree with Fred! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 One of my J200s is stamped (translated) June 23, 1989. I tried to pin down Jason J in Bozeman as to some hard dates and the best I could get out of him was that some were made in '88 (he has an '88 J200 I think) but as to the exact date they moved into the new building.... dunno. I've been under the impression it was very early '89. I don't know what facility they used prior to that. I assume Flatiron had their own place but I don't know if it was a smaller factory or a converted chicken coop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-1854Me Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 One of my J200s is stamped (translated) June 23, 1989. I tried to pin down Jason J in Bozeman as to some hard dates and the best I could get out of him was that some were made in '88 (he has an '88 J200 I think) but as to the exact date they moved into the new building.... dunno. I've been under the impression it was very early '89. I guess that's a question we'll have to ask at the Homecoming later this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 ... I assume Flatiron had their own place but I don't know if it was a smaller factory or a converted chicken coop. . . . . . . . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rar Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 ... I assume Flatiron had their own place but I don't know if it was a smaller factory or a converted chicken coop. Kinda half-way in between, if I remember right: the second floor of some building in beautiful downtown Belgrade. -- Bob R Added later: Well, I didn't remember right, although I was close -- see Hogeye's post below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modoc_333 Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 ...The first few years, Bozeman was turning out essentially hand-built guitars... they really still are. the only thing an automated machine does is grind the neck down from a blocky shape, to a rounded one. everything else is done by hand like the old days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rar Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 they really still are. the only thing an automated machine does is grind the neck down from a blocky shape, to a rounded one. everything else is done by hand like the old days. Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration -- e.g., CNC is also used to get the slots for the frets in the right place on the fretboard, to rout the recesses where standard (laser-cut, not hand sawn) inlay goes, etc. -- but I get what you're saying. Compared to Martin or Taylor, Gibson does indeed stick much closer to doing things the old-fashioned way. What I meant by "hand-built" was something different. There was no production line (and no fancy high-volume production line-type tools, such as vacuum presses) in the beginning. Guitars were pretty much completely built by individual luthiers (using one man shop-type tooling), much as in the later Ferguson/Walker-run Custom Shop. -- Bob R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 Guitars were pretty much completely built by individual luthiers (using one man shop-type tooling), much as in the later Ferguson/Walker-run Custom Shop. Guess that would be a sign to zoom in on these releases. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 My $.02. I am strictly an acoustic musician and throughout the '70s and '80s my refrain was "I never met a Gibson guitar that I liked". Then about 10 years ago I happened onto a '91 J-45. "Hokey Smokes! - what in the world have I been missing?" With the GAS flame burning, I began to hunt down Bozeman guitars, mostly J-45s and J-200s. I played a bunch as they came through the various shops in my corner of the world. On a J-200 binge, I think I bought and sold: '89, '91, '93, '95, '60 (oops, how did that get in there?) My impression: the '95 I liked the least. The neck shape didn't work for me and there was a definite lack of tone. Could have been that one guitar. The '89 was cool because (and I had this confirmed via photo sent to Ren F.) it had a Euro Spruce back and sides. To my ears, and the way I play, the best sound came from the '91 and '93 guitars. Which each had a more compelling sound than the '60 which costs considerably more. (No tone suppressor or tune-o-matic on that on either). So, in my limited experience, the early '90s instruments are on top. To be fair, I have not played a new Gibson in a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 Flatiron started in "The Bozeman Hotel" on the second floor in ,of course, beautiful downtown Bozeman. The place was actually called "The Back Porch Pickin' Parlor". They soon outgrew the the music store and moved into the "Red Shop"... This was a converted double garage that was used as a transmission repair shop in the back yard of a mechanic. Yes it was painted "red". They soon expanded into the garage next door. They did have a Coke machine but the place was so small they had to keep it outside. It had to be heated in the winter as the Coke would freeze. When Henry bought Flatiron he started building the present Gibson facility to build mandolins. In '89 he had Ren start building guitars. Ren built the first protos completely by hand bending the ribs on a heated pipe and shaping the necks with a draw knife. The very first guitars were shipped to Nashville for Henry to approve. There were a few of these that got out into the world as Henry approved the designs and told Ren to get into production. Yes they did use Sycamore for the first J-200's as they had a surplus shipped up from Nashville. The first spray booth was built to spray Fullerplast. It was a very durable finish but was impossible to repair and it was a tone killer. They converted to Nitro soon after and things got a lot better. I have played several of the Fullerplast guitars and find them to be a little heavy sounding. The first necks had a paddle cut dovetail. They were very difficult to neck fit but most feel they were superior in quality. These are always fun to stumble across. If you have Fullerplast and a paddle cut you have a very early Montana guitar. I could only imagine there will be a cult following for these guitars and probably sooner than later. First guitars were being shipped to dealers in late '89 and the first price list appeared in '90 Just so you know... John Walker and Kevin Kopp came along later. The only three original workers that are still there are Ren. Jason.J and Van F. Ren set up the production line from the start as it was easier to teach someone how to build a part rather than a whole guitar. The early Custom shop was the same way. Kevin and John never built a whole guitar by themselves but started out making parts. Neither were luthiers they learned their craft at the feet of Ren. When Ren started the Custom Shop he pirated away the best employees on the plant floor. Kevin and John are now world class luthiers and have built some of the finest guitars out there. John's J-35 is legendary and Kevin's Trail Boss is the guitar that dreams are made of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 So far, so good (the feeling of continuity is the key to all sense-making) - But what lies behind the Flatiron concept and which acoustic models did they start up with those 2+ decades ago ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 So far, so good (the feeling of continuity is the key to all sense-making) - But what lies behind the Flatiron concept and which acoustic models did they start up with those 2+ decades ago ?? The Flatiron "concept" was just a copy of the 1917 Gibson Army/Navy mandolin. There were no Flatiron guitars. Henry moved the acoustic guitars from Nashville to Bozeman for several reasons. The biggest is that Ren was there and there was a big resource for craftsman and artisans in the Bozeman area. They had a great work ethic and there was plenty of talent to chose from. One of the great stories with the Flatiron saga is that of Bruce Weber. Bruce is one of the most talented luthiers on the planet. He started out as a potter. His wonderful wife Mary started out in the Gibson/Montana shipping dept. The 1990 price list: J-30 $1125.00 J-45 $1319.00 J-50 $1349.00 J-100 $1435.00 J-180 $1535.00 Hummingbird $1685.00 Dove $1815.00 J-185 $1854.00 Advanced Jumbo $1999.00 J-200 $2019.00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 My '89 has the paddle dovetail but I'm not sure about the fullerplast. Any idea on how to tell? It looks and feels like lacquer to me, for whatever that's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 My '89 has the paddle dovetail but I'm not sure about the fullerplast. Any idea on how to tell? It looks and feels like lacquer to me, for whatever that's worth. Fullerplast never gets a high gloss and suffers from a dimpled look.Think orange peel here.Don't get me wrong. It looks good just not that good. Turn the guitar on it's side and sight across the top. The orange peel will be easy to spot. It's hard to see your reflection in Fullerplast.If I remember right your guitar is a J-200. Gibson actually shipped 289 antique naturals in '89. Cool.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 Very high gloss and no orange peel so this one is probably lacquer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 Very high gloss and no orange peel so this one is probably lacquer. Oh man . . . . . That dark burst is very tasty ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted April 19, 2011 Author Share Posted April 19, 2011 So since Ren and the Flatiron mandolin company used to make carved top mandolins, did Ren or Bozeman ever build any of the carved top L-5's or any carved top/carved back guitars or were those built at the electric guitar factory out east? I'll bet Ren could build an archtop that would sound and look pretty good......hmmmmmmm Weber mandolins in Bozeman makes a nice little archtop, I would love to see what Ren could do design-wise with one of these:L http://www.soundtoearth.com/instruments.php?cat=9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rar Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 ... Ren set up the production line from the start as it was easier to teach someone how to build a part rather than a whole guitar. The early Custom shop was the same way. ... Thanks for straightening me out on this. I don't know why I thought there was more than one luthier there prior to starting the production line. Probably read it in one of those notoriously unreliable internet fora. :) -- Bob R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rar Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 ... did Ren or Bozeman ever build any of the carved top L-5's or any carved top/carved back guitars or were those built at the electric guitar factory out east? I'll bet Ren could build an archtop that would sound and look pretty good......hmmmmmmm There are some archtops built in Bozeman, including the standard production L7-C. I got to play an archtop at the factory last year, a prototype for a possible forthcoming signature model, that was just killer. I sure hope that one make it into production! -- Bob R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rar Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 Fullerplast never gets a high gloss and suffers from a dimpled look.Think orange peel here.Don't get me wrong. It looks good just not that good. Turn the guitar on it's side and sight across the top. The orange peel will be easy to spot. It's hard to see your reflection in Fullerplast.If I remember right your guitar is a J-200. Gibson actually shipped 289 antique naturals in '89. Cool.. Fabulous Flat-tops has the switch from Fullerplast to nitro somewhat later, in late '90 (p. 172). Is that just wrong, or was there a mix of Fullerplast and nitro finishing for awhile? -- Bob R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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