clarkuss Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 I don't like untraditional finishes on archtop guitars but don't mid them on solid body guitars... In guitar terms, if you can see the wood grain then the finish is transparent. Otherwise it is a solid finish. Dictionary definitions an personal semantics are irrelevant. That's how they're described and known Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender 4 Life Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 don't have anything in P/B.....but a dandy LPB Mexicaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Zeplin Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 even marty said after seeing the photos it's transparent. in fact, he stated he could not do what i needed done due to the transparent finish. a quick glance proves you can clearly see the grain underneath the color. Yes you can see grain but not actual wood because the blue paint covers it. If it was really transparent you would see the wood, think trans amber or trans black or even ice tea or honeyburst. To me the difference is that transparent finishes have a stain rather than a paint, which is what you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 I think that one of the things to keep in mind here is that regardless of the name that Epiphone uses for the color, Pelham Blue today isnt the same as Pelham Blue of yesterday...at least for the Epiphone models. Aside from todays paint having a different chemical makeup that that of the early days, Epiphone is a budget based instrument made in several locations. You will find several variations of a particular color and the mixing process is most likely not as accurate to the old models AND from factory to factory. Epiphone's TV Yellow is a prime example of this. There have been three or four versions of this color that Epiphone has used on modern guitars that all carry the name "TV Yellow". However, one point that seems to have been overlooked is that the Pelham Blue that you can see the grain through is actually called "TV Pelham Blue". The "TV" portion of the name indicates that you are meant to see the wood grain through the paint.This is a new color altogether and trying to compare it to yesteryear's Pelham Blue is quite pointless. IMO. though, the TV PB is not transparent or translucent. Its a thin coat to allow the grain texture to show. What you are seeing with this color is not the "wood grain", but the texture of the woodgrain through a thin coat of paint. A few more coats and a dip in gloss poly clear and that grain texture would be gone completely. Remember, "transparent" is just another word for "clear". The word "translucent" means that there is a color that you can see through to the original medium. This TV Pelham is neither. It is more of a porous coating that allows the texture of the medium to show, but not the medium itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott0 Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 i'm going to stick with the terminolgy the 2 top guitar painters in the industry use. although, if i have another cup of coffee this morning i might call em both up and educate them based the opinions in this thread. that will get me real far i bet. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Zeplin Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 I think that one of the things to keep in mind here is that regardless of the name that Epiphone uses for the color, Pelham Blue today isnt the same as Pelham Blue of yesterday...at least for the Epiphone models. Aside from todays paint having a different chemical makeup that that of the early days, Epiphone is a budget based instrument made in several locations. You will find several variations of a particular color and the mixing process is most likely not as accurate to the old models AND from factory to factory. Epiphone's TV Yellow is a prime example of this. There have been three or four versions of this color that Epiphone has used on modern guitars that all carry the name "TV Yellow". However, one point that seems to have been overlooked is that the Pelham Blue that you can see the grain through is actually called "TV Pelham Blue". The "TV" portion of the name indicates that you are meant to see the wood grain through the paint.This is a new color altogether and trying to compare it to yesteryear's Pelham Blue is quite pointless. IMO. though, the TV PB is not transparent or translucent. Its a thin coat to allow the grain texture to show. What you are seeing with this color is not the "wood grain", but the texture of the woodgrain through a thin coat of paint. A few more coats and a dip in gloss poly clear and that grain texture would be gone completely. Remember, "transparent" is just another word for "clear". The word "translucent" means that there is a color that you can see through to the original medium. This TV Pelham is neither. It is more of a porous coating that allows the texture of the medium to show, but not the medium itself. Right on, brother! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dporto Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 FWIW...I'm going to go with Capmaster and whoever else said NOT TRANSPARENT! The wood just isn't grain filled - the paint is clearly (no pun intended) opaque. The "two top finishers in California" thing is just a red herring - they agreed with you because that's what you (and apparently Epiphone) were calling the finish and it was pointless to get in an argument over it. Transparent means you can see the actual wood through the finish (i.e. - clear) as in a colored stain. This isn't stain, it's paint... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott0 Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 FWIW...I'm going to go with Capmaster and whoever else said NOT TRANSPARENT! The wood just isn't grain filled - the paint is clearly (no pun intended) opaque. The "two top finishers in California" thing is just a red herring - they agreed with you because that's what you (and apparently Epiphone) were calling the finish and it was pointless to get in an argument over it. Transparent means you can see the actual wood through the finish (i.e. - clear) as in a colored stain. This isn't stain, it's paint... the funny part is both painters said it is in fact stain. and they both had no problems getting into an argument about anything, that was the entire point of my post, marty bell arguing about it not even being blue- and that's the funniset part of peeps here getting sidetracked on the verbiage, my point in sharing the story was agreeing with Milod on color perspective. [lol] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott0 Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott0 Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 <-------still chuckling over the red herring quip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 the funny part is both painters said it is in fact stain. and they both had no problems getting into an argument about anything, that was the entire point of my post, marty bell arguing about it not even being blue- and that's the funniset part of peeps here getting sidetracked on the verbiage, my point in sharing the story was agreeing with Milod on color perspective. [lol] After thinking about this for awhile and applying my 20+ years in the print industry, I think we are confusing a translucent finish with a translucent medium. The finish is not transparent. Maybe semi-opaque, or even fully opaque, but that is not impossible to acheive with a transparent-based paint. I think that the problem with trying to match this color, being either a stain or a paint with a transparent base is that when trying to color match, the transparent properties of the paint will most likely darken any existing finish that the new piant/stain sits on top of. The more you apply, the darker it gets. This is not the case with an opaque-based paint. You may be able to get the fill spots to match the existing color, but the areas around the fill will continue to darken with every application of the new paint/stain. You can achieve the exact same color with either a transparent based or opaque based medium, but the application is a bit different. We work with both trans and opaque inks and I cant believe that I didnt put this together earlier. lol. So again, we are confusing a tranlucent finish with a transparent-based piant or stain. Color matching with a transparent based paint is a next to impossible task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott0 Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 After thinking about this for awhile and applying my 20+ years in the print industry, I think we are confusing a translucent finish with a translucent medium. The finish is not transparent. Maybe semi-opaque, or even fully opaque, but that is not impossible to acheive with a transparent-based paint. I think that the problem with trying to match this color, being either a stain or a paint with a transparent base is that when trying to color match, the transparent properties of the paint will most likely darken any existing finish that the new piant/stain sits on top of. The more you apply, the darker it gets. This is not the case with an opaque-based paint. You may be able to get the fill spots to match the existing color, but the areas around the fill will continue to darken with every application of the new paint/stain. You can achieve the exact same color with either a transparent based or opaque based medium, but the application is a bit different. We work with both trans and opaque inks and I cant believe that I didnt put this together earlier. lol. So again, we are confusing a tranlucent finish with a transparent-based piant or stain. Color matching with a transparent based paint is a next to impossible task. I appreciate the thoughtful reply. Your description about the area surrounding around thw dowels is exactly where the problem in refinishing the top is, as described to me by the refinishers. i'm still contemplating having the entire top redone in opaque pelham blue. Pat Wilkins stated he can get very close to matching the stain on the sides, back and neck with his opaque pelham blue paint mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 RTH... My first experience in the biz was at Meredith Burda back in the mid '60s - testing ink and paper for color and other properties in a laboratory environment. Great fun and the education of real life printing made things quite interesting for me when I was later doing the photography and graphics that would end up in four-color seps run on different presses with different inks, etc., etc. Yeah, there are so many variables involved in anything that is used as a "finish" - or ink. There's what you put the stuff on which has color and other properties affecting the medium; the medium; the pigment; the amount and types of pigment; the thickness of an application... And regardless, what one sees when the finish/ink is dried is a matter of the eye and brain translating what it thinks it sees in the light reflected from the finish - and the affect of the source light on that too. I'd agree that even "close enough" would be exceptionally difficult in a finish repair job of this sort for a batch of reasons - even if the original finish were available for use on the repair. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 RTH... My first experience in the biz was at Meredith Burda back in the mid '60s - testing ink and paper for color and other properties in a laboratory environment. Great fun and the education of real life printing made things quite interesting for me when I was later doing the photography and graphics that would end up in four-color seps run on different presses with different inks, etc., etc. Yeah, there are so many variables involved in anything that is used as a "finish" - or ink. There's what you put the stuff on which has color and other properties affecting the medium; the medium; the pigment; the amount and types of pigment; the thickness of an application... And regardless, what one sees when the finish/ink is dried is a matter of the eye and brain translating what it thinks it sees in the light reflected from the finish - and the affect of the source light on that too. I'd agree that even "close enough" would be exceptionally difficult in a finish repair job of this sort for a batch of reasons - even if the original finish were available for use on the repair. m Milo, you are very correct! Another factor to the color of the finished product in printing is the viscosity of the ink...especially with a transparent base. The thicker the ink, the darker the color ends up. It is something I have to watch very carefully on my old rotary drum presses. The inline presses with doctor blades scrape the anilox rollers and meter the inks much more consistently. I'm in the flexographic industry, BTW. But yeah, there are many variables in obtaining a correct color match. The color of the lights above you are really key. For some reason we dont use light boxes here, so we end up going from room to room to make sure the color is correct. And even then, what the customer ends up seeing could be completely different than what you see because of a simple thing as the light bulb temperature in any given room. One thing about trans VS. opaque inks, and even paints, is that when you look at, say, a PMS 290 light blue in the jug or can, the trans ink will be a very dark , whereas the opaque will look similar to the finished application because of the white base. But in the end, they are the same color. As far as the medium they are applied to, yes there are many variables there too. Even the face stock texture will change a color. For example, a matte face will end up darker than a gloss face because the ink penetrates into the porous matte surface, wheras it only sits on top of the gloss. So many factors, indeed. As far as matching the color of that particular guitar finish, you can indeed match the color almost pefectly as long as you arent putting fresh paint on top of the existing paint. It is really the transparent base that makes it impossible to achieve. Like I said earlier, if it were an opaque base, that wouldnt be much of an issue for an experienced person. Another problem with refinishing this guitar with a trans based paint is that you will never get all of the original finish off of the guitar. It appears that there is little to no base coat or primer, and even if there is, it is very thin as indicated by the fact that we can see the wood grain through the finish. There would end up being dark streaks in all of the low areas of the grain...which could look good or bad depending on your taste and the skill of the person refinishing the guitar. It would be unique, for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I appreciate the thoughtful reply. Your description about the area surrounding around thw dowels is exactly where the problem in refinishing the top is, as described to me by the refinishers. i'm still contemplating having the entire top redone in opaque pelham blue. Pat Wilkins stated he can get very close to matching the stain on the sides, back and neck with his opaque pelham blue paint mix. Yeah, he can probably get close enough for everyone but you and him not to be able to see the difference. One thing, though, is that you will probably lose the texture of the wood grain in the process. Just a guess, but I'm sure that he would know for sure. Besides, most people only see the top of the guitar anyway. If you can live with the differences in the finish, then I say go for it. Oh, and again, in different lighting scenarios, there may be huge differences in the color due to trans VS. opaque. Over time, aging might end up showing differences as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 RTH... Back in "the day," I was working with various qualities of coated paper - depending on the publication - and various qualities of ink, mostly heatset letterpress at 150 lpi pix, but occasionally cover offset inks. We didn't even try to use the eye for color. Made a 10 percent pastel and ran it through the spectrophotometer - and kept records of the whites we used for the pastel for adjustment. As for "viscosity," in those days the major concern was "tack." m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 The flexo industry is quite a bit different than the offset industry. We use a spectrometer for certain jobs that require it, but mostly once a year or so when we "fingerprint" our bigger presses that run up to eight colors. But, we are a small company. We dont do many jobs for the big corps. that require more prescision. Most of what I do personally are blanks, inventory type labels & tags and odds & ends. I run all of the money losing jobs to keep the customers happy that bring in the money making jobs. Its kind of weird. Gotta take the good with the bad as long as you come out ahead. Of course, I'm also the webmaster, inventory, dies and parts manager, IT for the PC machines, part-time art guy and whatever other hat I have to wear that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott0 Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Yeah, he can probably get close enough for everyone but you and him not to be able to see the difference. One thing, though, is that you will probably lose the texture of the wood grain in the process. Just a guess, but I'm sure that he would know for sure. Besides, most people only see the top of the guitar anyway. If you can live with the differences in the finish, then I say go for it. Oh, and again, in different lighting scenarios, there may be huge differences in the color due to trans VS. opaque. Over time, aging might end up showing differences as well. The refinish will definitely cover the wood grain, which is what has stalled the project. I haven't committed to completely altering a limited edition guitar. Well, limited by the broad definition epi has for limited. PArt of the goal of removing the bigsby was to show off the finish, + losing almost a pound of weight + I don't use a bigsby really. But in looking at a bunch of gibson pelham blue guitars, the solid is real pretty, prolly just as nice as the current finish. Pat mentioned he can get quite a nice sheen to it, mixing in silver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Here is a question...can he match an opaque paint to the trans paint and blend it so it isnt noticeable? The opaque paint shouldnt darken the trans paint when applied to the top of it. A seamless color matching may prove to be difficult though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott0 Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Here is a question...can he match an opaque paint to the trans paint and blend it so it isnt noticeable? The opaque paint shouldnt darken the trans paint when applied to the top of it. A seamless color matching may prove to be difficult though. I didn't think to ask that, but I like the idea and will check in on it, I'm going to give him a while to catch up on his business after the holiday break, apparently there's a lot of work to catch up on. And these guys, as you prolly know, run everything in their shops, answer the phones, etc. Thanks for the suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 RTH... Sounds like me in the local newspaper office... As far as pushing quality issues, though, back "when," mags like Vogue and Brides were super, super picky on color, paper quality, etc. A slight "yellow" on a wedding dress could be a disaster - at least from their point of view. Several times in the time I was there, I was called to pull ink out of a fountain on a four-story high heatset press - and you can imagine the money lost from the whole crew sitting there while I ran color and/or tack tests to see if I could get them data to see what was wrong and how to correct it. Sheesh, a 19-year-old kid and how much money lost while that big press was down? OTOH, I was pretty good with the testing procedures which is why the boss had me do it - I was more consistent with samples than he was and he knew it. That yellow ink was almost literally "hard." It was work to get it outa a barrel into a salve tin for testing. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Zeplin Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 After thinking about this for awhile and applying my 20+ years in the print industry, I think we are confusing a translucent finish with a translucent medium. The finish is not transparent. Maybe semi-opaque, or even fully opaque, but that is not impossible to acheive with a transparent-based paint. I think that the problem with trying to match this color, being either a stain or a paint with a transparent base is that when trying to color match, the transparent properties of the paint will most likely darken any existing finish that the new piant/stain sits on top of. The more you apply, the darker it gets. This is not the case with an opaque-based paint. You may be able to get the fill spots to match the existing color, but the areas around the fill will continue to darken with every application of the new paint/stain. You can achieve the exact same color with either a transparent based or opaque based medium, but the application is a bit different. We work with both trans and opaque inks and I cant believe that I didnt put this together earlier. lol. So again, we are confusing a tranlucent finish with a transparent-based piant or stain. Color matching with a transparent based paint is a next to impossible task. Just thinking out loud here but the finish would be the poly coating which is transparent is it not? But the paint underneath is not transparent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Just thinking out loud here but the finish would be the poly coating which is transparent is it not? But the paint underneath is not transparent. The base medium for the paint is a transparent medium, meaning that the pigments are mixed with a clear base. An opaque paint would have a base made with a white medium. The confusing part is that you can still achieve a mostly opaque finish with a transparent based paint, and that is basically what we have going on here. It really depends on how much pigment is mixed into the base medium. The problem with trying to do a touch-up with a trans base paint is that the more coats you apply, the darker it gets. An opaque based paint will not do that. There is always a certain level of translucency to a trans based paint, even if the end result is an opaque looking finish. Though, I think calling the TV Pelham Blue a transparent paint isnt exactly correct. I think it is probably more or a semi-opaque or semi-transparent. But the same ideas concerning touchups still apply due to in not being fully opaque. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dporto Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 <-------still chuckling over the red herring quip. Well thank you very much (best Elvis impression...)...As long as we can keep chuckling about this sort of stuff, everything will be fine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott0 Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Well thank you very much (best Elvis impression...)...As long as we can keep chuckling about this sort of stuff, everything will be fine! Put me on record that this entire thread kicks massive ***! From the op and my ribbing of it to my getting ribbed re: transparent v opaque, I've gotten quite a kick out of all it. And learned some things as well, such as how the burst paint scheme evolved, to a potential way to get the top of my es-355 refinished. And along the way, gotten a chance to interact with others that have a very common interest with me- electric epiphones. I look at it all as good-spirited fun, not mean-spirited in any way. I hope my hints along the way have suggested that, such as referring to Pin, the thread starter as a raging anti-pelhamite (although I got the quote wrong, it's rabid, not raging ;-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ythrdCsOFJU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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