Intonation confusion G-400 Pro

[mfowler]

Hello,

 

I've searched threads here and I've read the owners manual about intonating my G400. However, I'm experiencing some wierdness that's slightly confusing me and hoping someone could help.

 

1. I tune all open strings to standard tuning.

2. I play the harmonic 12th, and they are in tune with the open string.

3. I play the fretted 12th, and e, B, and G are all a tad sharp, but D, A, and E are spot on.

 

The user manual suggesting changing the saddle position until the harmonic 12th and fretted 12th match. What should be my course of action when the harmonic matches the open, but the fretted doesn't match the open?

 

Thanks

[rct]

Open string, fretted at 12th. You are tuning half the length of the string to match the whole length of the string. Harmonics will elude you. Forever. Don't use them.

 

rct

[mfowler]

Open string, fretted at 12th. You are tuning half the length of the string to match the whole length of the string. Harmonics will elude you. Forever. Don't use them.

 

rct

 

Got it, thanks! I'll try again. However, no matter how much I adjusted the saddle, the fretted 12th was always sharp.

[rct]

May have to turn the saddle around if it will give you enough room to go back some more.

If not that, nut may be stopping string too close and have to be re-done or replaced. If not that, the string gauge you are using won't intonate on that guitar. If not that, bridge in wrong spot! It happens.

 

rct

[vomer]

If you are intonating a guitar you rightly compare the harmonic at the 12th fret with the fretted note at the 12th fret.

 

If the fretted note at the 12th doesn't match (i.e. be the octave of) the open string then a number of things could be happening:

 

1) the 12th fret is in the wrong place (not likely if half your strings are working OK, and not very likely anyway);

2) the 12th fret could be acting as if it were "in the wrong place" by how it has been skimmed and crowned (or not crowned)- a wide flat fret may be wide enough for the fretted string to leave the fret at one edge rather than the middle;

3) you could have dodgy strings if they are an old set, and you could struggle for ever to make any sense of their intonation;

4) you may be pressing down hard on the unwound strings and sharpening them without realising it. Particularly if your action is a bit high, and/or you have high frets.

 

My money would be on 4, and 3 if you have old strings. If they are old, just get new ones and see how they work.

[vomer]

Harmonics will elude you. Forever. Don't use them.

 

You can't intonate a guitar without using the harmonic at the 12th.

 

May have to turn the saddle around if it will give you enough room to go back some more.

 

This will only affect the intonation, not mfowler's problem.

 

If not that, nut may be stopping string too close and have to be re-done or replaced.

 

Not too close, too far away. I should have remembered this, check where the string leaves the nut- it should leave at the edge closest to the fretboard. The slot should be cut with a downward sloping curve away from the fretboard edge of the nut.

 

If not that, the string gauge you are using won't intonate on that guitar. If not that, bridge in wrong spot! It happens.

 

It's not about the intonation. So, the bridge isn't in the wrong place.

[capmaster]

Open string, fretted at 12th. You are tuning half the length of the string to match the whole length of the string. Harmonics will elude you. Forever. Don't use them.

 

rct

Hmmm... for precise intonation adjustment, I use exclusively harmonics. 12th fret flageolet has to match 12th fret fingered note, 19th fret flageolet 19th fret fingered note. In case there is a 24th fret, one will have to compromise, perhaps except very heavy gauges like .014" - .060" or so for standard tuning.

 

For comparing results of adjustment and tuning, I also use them. E. g. B2nd fingered at 5th fret has to match E1st open, and E1st fingered at 7th fret B2nd 12th fret flageolet.

[Dennis G]

I'd agree with Vomer as to #'s 3 or 4 being the culprit. When I adjust intonation on my guitars, I always use "open/harmonic @ 12th/fretted @ 12th until they match, so I agree that the harmonic is a part of the process.

 

As for harmonics eluding you and never use them, I'd disagree. You can get some very nice effects in your playing by using the ocassional harmonic note(s).

 

YMMV and as always, it's just IMHO

[mfowler]

Thank you all for your feedback and insight. My strings aren't too old, maybe 3 weeks. I'll try again when I change strings. The 3 strings are sharp by a bit less than 10%, so for a hobbyist I'm not going to "fret" too much right now.

 

Yeah...I should be banned for using that pun. Sorry.

[jimmi accardi]

Yep about harmonics at the 12th fret. Also, yes - #3 and #4 most likely. And turn saddles around if you run out out room to intonate. Once or twice over the years, I'd run into a problem where nothing would get a certain string intonated only to find that it was the particular string that was bad. Rare, but it happens.

[rct]

You can't intonate a guitar without using the harmonic at the 12th.

 

I've been intonating guitars since about 1974. I've played all over the country, recorded, made loads of money and had a blast. I've never been turned away from any sort of guitar use because my guitars were not intonated correctly, not one of probably more than a hundred in my lifetime. None of them ever intonated by harmonics. One of us can intonate a guitar without using harmonics.

 

 

This will only affect the intonation, not mfowler's problem.

 

If his problem was chronic sharp strings, yes, he needs to lengthen the string to correct that. One of the dangers of using harmonics is that they begin sharp and can take quite a time to even out. Tuning to them too soon cause an artificial flat, which is compensated for by over sharping at the bridge.

 

 

Not too close, too far away. I should have remembered this, check where the string leaves the nut- it should leave at the edge closest to the fretboard. The slot should be cut with a downward sloping curve away from the fretboard edge of the nut.

 

If the string stops too close to the first fret the string will intonate sharp, therefore, the string is stopping too close, NOT too far away. Sharp = short, flat = long.

 

It's not about the intonation. So, the bridge isn't in the wrong place.

 

Strings that won't intonate because they are too sharp, that appeared to me to be the problem I was responding to.

 

Whatever the case, far too many guitar players using harmonics to intonate their guitars. The string needs to be a length, it needs to ring open at a frequency, and it needs to ring at exactly half the length of it at one octave up. The harmonic is too near the center of the string, a place we can't fret, to intonate to. Sorry kids, argue away, have at it, one of us has never had a problem intonating any guitar, and most of you are in here most of the time moaning you can't get yer guitars in tune.

 

rct

[rct]

As for harmonics eluding you and never use them, I'd disagree. You can get some very nice effects in your playing by using the ocassional harmonic note(s).

 

Do you know that I meant for tuning with an electronic tuner, as in, intonating a guitar?

 

rct

[Dennis G]

Do you know that I meant for tuning with an electronic tuner, as in, intonating a guitar?

 

rct

Well, no. I guess as that 007 guy once said "Never say never". Gotcha now though.

[Tall Steve]

One of the dangers of using harmonics is that they begin sharp and can take quite a time to even out.

 

Just curious, how do they begin sharp? Is it because the strings haven't stretched out?

[vomer]

One of us can intonate a guitar without using harmonics.

 

Could you tell us your method?

 

 

One of the dangers of using harmonics is that they begin sharp and can take quite a time to even out.

 

Sorry, I don't understand this. By definition, the 12th fret harmonic is the octave of the open string. How does a harmonic "begin sharp"?

 

 

If the string stops too close to the first fret the string will intonate sharp, therefore, the string is stopping too close, NOT too far away. Sharp = short, flat = long.

 

The string can't "stop too close" to the fretboard if the nut is in the correct position, and if the frets are in the correct position. As I said above, if the nut is cut incorrectly so the string leaves the nut somewhere further back than the fretboard edge of the nut, it will affect the intonation of the guitar; the frets will be relatively "in the wrong place". This is why:

 

Imagine we have a guitar with a moveable nut and moveable frets. Lets say we start out with a scale length of 30". The 12th fret is half way along at 15". If we move the nut 1" towards the headstock to give a scale length of 31", then the 12th fret will need to be moved the same direction by 1/2", to 15 1/2". If we move the nut but don't move the 12th fret and leave it at 15" from the bridge, the string fretted at the 12th fret will be 1/2" short, and sounding sharp relative to the octave and the octave harmonic.

 

This is why mfowler should check his nut, as this is his symptom, the fretted 12th note sounding sharp relative to the open string and the mid-string harmonic.

 

 

The harmonic is too near the center of the string, a place we can't fret, to intonate to.

 

Could you explain this further? The centre of the string being the 12th fret, a place we can fret, or am I missing something? Thanks.

[rct]

Could you tell us your method?

 

Sure!

 

Open. 12th. After both right, 3rd. 15th. On my guitars, for the most part, once the open and 12th are right, any other 12 fret distance is either right on, or off by, and this is important, the same amount. So if open and 12 are right, but 5th and 17th are both just a smidge sharp, that's fine. If 3rd and 15th are off and different, which hasn't happened much at all to me, it's usually the nut that is wrong.

 

That's it. Remember: pretty much in tune, pretty much all over the neck, for the most part, pretty much. Guitars are imperfect. Unless you are using it in a vacuum to calibrate other machines, it is going to be just fine, most tuners can hear 40 times better than we can. Green Grass And High Tides will sound just fine, even if yer off a bit. Same gauge, same brand, same composition on all of my electrics, so I don't often have to move a saddle.

 

Sorry, I don't understand this. By definition, the 12th fret harmonic is the octave of the open string. How does a harmonic "begin sharp"?

 

I honestly don't know. Back then, analog Conn/Petersons, guy at the shop showed me why not to use harmonics, not even the 5th/7th that most guitar players use. Could their analog-ness have something to do with it? Today I use an early Peterson Virtual Strobe. Harmonics seem to ring consistently on it, so perhaps it was the time and the technology.

 

The string can't "stop too close" to the fretboard if the nut is in the correct position, and if the frets are in the correct position. As I said above, if the nut is cut incorrectly so the string leaves the nut somewhere further back than the fretboard edge of the nut, it will affect the intonation of the guitar; the frets will be relatively "in the wrong place". This is why:

 

Imagine we have a guitar with a moveable nut and moveable frets. Lets say we start out with a scale length of 30". The 12th fret is half way along at 15". If we move the nut 1" towards the headstock to give a scale length of 31", then the 12th fret will need to be moved the same direction by 1/2", to 15 1/2". If we move the nut but don't move the 12th fret and leave it at 15" from the bridge, the string fretted at the 12th fret will be 1/2" short, and sounding sharp relative to the octave and the octave harmonic.

 

This is why mfowler should check his nut, as this is his symptom, the fretted 12th note sounding sharp relative to the open string and the mid-string harmonic.

 

Since nuts are cut usually by hastily set-up-by-people machines in one whack at the end of the neck line, and I've watched them, it is entirely possible to have a G string nut slot stop the string too close to the first fret, that is, too close to the pickup side of the guitar. Put that string on and it will intonate sharp assuming the saddles are in the middle of their travel and the twelfth is correctly placed. A guy setting up your guitar that has saddles with really odd distances for that particular guitar will often replace your nut with a fairly compensated set of slots. Mr. Feiten made a career out of just putting a zeroth fret on there, which in effect, makes all strings the same stop length up there at the nut, basically preventing the problem you and I are talking about here for fretted notes. Zero fret has been around a long time, he is by no means the first.

 

Did any of that make sense?

 

Could you explain this further? The centre of the string being the 12th fret, a place we can fret, or am I missing something? Thanks.

 

The node at which the harmonic is strongest is what I guess we would think of as the actual center of the string when stopped by the nut right now and the saddle right where it is. That can often be somewhat forward, pickup side, of the actual fretwire, and it can be aft, nut side, of the actual fretwire, too far back in the space to fret it without affecting the tuning. Follow me? If you continue to intonate to harmonics, you may, could, probably not always and quite possibly never intonate your guitar to a point that you actually can't fret well. If you set it up and are all intonationized via harmonics and you can't get 5th and 17th to be on or the same amount in the same direction off, it might be because you intonated with harmonics.

 

We want to set the guitar so that when we fret at the 12th we are fretting at the center of the string, as exact as we can, which isn't very. If we divide the string (almost) exactly in half, both sides of that half will be (relatively) in tune with the rest of the guitar, and in tune with the other instruments that were tuned with the same reference.

 

Intonate on bruthas.

 

rct

[Dennis G]

I don't know about anyone else, but I absolutely love these threads where there is a very civil discourse, and even difference of opinion, without resorting to deragetory personal comments. And I'm learning a lot in the process!

[Tall Steve]

Using the harmonics on the 5th and 7th will throw you off anyway since you're matching an octave harmonic to a fifth harmonic, respectively.

[indiekiduk]

before you make any adjustments try new strings. I had some crazy problems and the saddles wouldn't move far enough. Then after I replaced strings I had to put them all back to the original place so it was a complete waste of time.

[vomer]

Open. 12th. After both right, 3rd. 15th. On my guitars, for the most part, once the open and 12th are right, any other 12 fret distance is either right on, or off by, and this is important, the same amount. So if open and 12 are right, but 5th and 17th are both just a smidge sharp, that's fine. If 3rd and 15th are off and different, which hasn't happened much at all to me, it's usually the nut that is wrong.

 

Thanks, interesting, never come across that. I'll try it.

 

not even the 5th/7th that most guitar players use.

 

I'd heard this wasn't a good method, physics and the imperfect nature of pitch vs. string length.

 

it is entirely possible to have a G string nut slot stop the string too close to the first fret, that is, too close to the pickup side of the guitar.

 

Yes if we take it to the realms that Buzz Feitin does. But for us ordinary mortals with ordinary nuts, I'd still stand by the usual method of having the strings leave the nut at the edge by the fretboard.

 

 

The node at which the harmonic is strongest is what I guess we would think of as the actual center of the string when stopped by the nut right now and the saddle right where it is. That can often be somewhat forward, pickup side, of the actual fretwire, and it can be aft, nut side, of the actual fretwire, too far back in the space to fret it without affecting the tuning.

 

What I understand from this is that if you set the intonation using your method which gets you playing in tune along the neck, you might find 12th harmonic doesn't equal 12th fretted. Whereas I would be starting from that point, and trying to make everything work from there.

 

We want to set the guitar so that when we fret at the 12th we are fretting at the center of the string, as exact as we can, which isn't very. If we divide the string (almost) exactly in half, both sides of that half will be (relatively) in tune with the rest of the guitar, and in tune with the other instruments that were tuned with the same reference.

 

No argument there, that's what we're aiming for. Thanks rct, interesting stuff.

[Ed Zeplin]

 

 

Yes if we take it to the realms that Buzz Feitin does. But for us ordinary mortals with ordinary nuts, I'd still stand by the usual method of having the strings leave the nut at the edge by the fretboard.

 

My wife said my nuts were extraordinary.

 

That being said I just checked the intonation on my Casino, LP and SG and they are spot on across the board open, 12th fretted note and 12th fret harmonic which is what I strive for when setting up. But I would tend to accept the fretted notes as opposed to harmonics since that is what I will be playing. I also check the tuning of individual notes at various points on the neck to validate.

 

Another thing I do is use the D 12th harmonic and compare with the D on the G string, 7 th fret and B string, 3rd fret as a check since these strings tend to go out of tune more easily.

[capmaster]

My wife said my nuts were extraordinary.

...

This won't help when dealing with intonation problems but may turn out creating lots more fun.

[cirospm]

Really enjoying this topic. 2020, but better post here than creating a new one etc...

I had an sg, original gibson standard, and fckin great guitar. Only the tuners (why vintage?! i prefer "modern", common sealed gotoh machines), but more aesthetics and personal mechanical preferences... The guitar played and tuned beautifully. Simple like that. Oh, about the harmonics and open strings...: that guitar octaves tuned equally using harmonics, opened strings and pressing the string down on 12th fret, all 3 methods together. Sometimes i get sad cause i didnt kept this guitar with me, but life goes on.

Now im trying an epiphone sg g-400 pro. Also having trouble to put this one in tune. Looks damn good, but wtf to make this guitar plays as good as the standard gibson sg.

I think the major point is the neck (too long), so its easily "bendable".. you know... not about truss rod, strings height, slippage, nut etc.. but the whole neck is easily bendable with your hands wathever side.. When you are coming from strat/les paul/classical guitars/telecasters/*any other guitar wich is not an sg* you will apply too much pressure on the fingering.. sg seems to require more softer touch to be played in tune. (note that you can put the guitar itself in tune, but she is hard to be played in tune!) So thats it, i guess the neck lenght is too big.. look at the les paul and see how much the neck "enters" in the body, and look the sg (the neck joint, this blending between neck and body is very tigh on sgs, so the necks are relativelly longer and consequently unstable). Maybe gibson usa uses higher quality woods and other materials, making the guitar play just fine, but the epi, i'm still figuring out. Also it neck-dives a lot, its unbalanced, maybe this makes the neck even more unstable?

I asked a guitar tech to replace the nut with a well made tusq one. 2nd time i change the nut. Before was brass and the break angle was too hard, maybe the strings was binding. Need to play some more.

Cheers!

Edited August 2, 2020 by cirospm
grammatical/ortography mistakes/other things