E-minor7 Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 The Had a great oppotunity 6 weeks ago to try a first generation Hummingbird - 1960 mint ! Couldn't believe my eyes when the case was opened - pure shining tequila-sunrise-burst royalty, , , and - apropos the CNC-machine thread - couldn't believe my left hand when I felt how slim this narrow ex of the 11/16 neck had turned out those 54 years ago at Kalamazoo. This precious Gibson sounded good, no doubt, but the immaculate condition and the object as an 'artefact' kind of overshone it's identity and presence as a 6 string western guitar. Besides the sky-high tag the width would have kept a distance for my personal part, but of course the encounter was intriguing. original Surely my eyes wandered down to Hartford Snyders wildlife scenario and once again it struck : Far most of the genuine vintage H-birds I've seen have been with the imbedded, not the ingraved motif like the contemporary True Vintage models. Now I really happen to like the modern ingraved handpainted (whatever) ones and honestly rate them over the imbedded. Yet these old imbedded versions are close to being my favorites. They often have a yellow hue and are much more precise in the lines than the ones seen today. What makes wonder is why the contemporary TV's have the h-painted grooves when - as mentioned - the majority of the early Birds they want to emulate are under the plast - and why the new imbedded Standard guards aren't as freaking cühl as their 60's ancestors. Any ideas, , , any knowledge of the 2 methods used back then, , , why and when etc. . . imbedded version Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duluthdan Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I'm a fan of that original embedded PG. Someday perhaps. I would think that today's technology would make these eaier produced than the hand painted ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliasphobias Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 I am a big fan of the original. Pickguards in general are a little disappointing, the H'bird(tv) surprisingly so. I liked the embedded the best,etched better, the hand painted-not at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 I had an early 1960s Hummingbird come to stay for a bit a year or so back. Did not end up keeping it though. The reason that guitar sounds so good is the bracing. Gibson's non-scallop bracing was beautifully designed adding more strength to the top but virtually no more mass than the earlier scalloped version. They tend to give up a bit on the low end but give a the guitars a real punchy sound. Thing is Bozeman makes no guitar with that bracing these days so if you want old school Hummingbird sound you are going to have to buy an old Hummingird. My problem with old HBs is the necks remain a deal killer. Also, gonna be a bit shallow here but I am not a fan of the cherry burst and would be more attracted to a natural top version. Then again there are always the earliest version of the HB - the Epiphone Frontier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlejohnny Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 regarding new birds, I prefer the guard on tvs or 60ies reissues, cause the reddish material is closer to the original than the brownish tortoise material on the standard birds. and yes, those reddish guards look even better on natural tops imo. Man, why gibson can't ever get things right? just kiddin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Personally,, I've come to believe that on every vintage reissue model that Gibson does, they always intentionally make sure that to a knowing vintage collector's eyes and expertise. that any reissue will not be mistaken Inthe vintage collector market-place as the original vintage model. This could cause havoc In the vintage collector marketplaces as as produce ill will and lower demand for both vintage and newer reissues mistakenly being taken as what amounts to counterfeit originals. By having some non-replaceable aspect or marking (such as a custom shop label imbedded in the neck), the reissue model's integrity as a reissue and not the original model is kept intact...while paying honor to the original but establishing the newer reissue model I'm its own right. I have no evidence, Gibson intentionally follows this ethical code, but it sure seems like they do...and that's a good thing. It keeps vintage original prices up, which influences reissues and newer model versions to retain their value in the used resale and future vintage markets while creating a new market for players who want new guitars very much like (but not exactly like) the tried and true favorites that have already been sold. Pretty brilliant way to keep selling new guitars if they are doing that. Just my rambling thoughts on the subject. Jazzman Jeff aka QM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted August 19, 2014 Author Share Posted August 19, 2014 I follow the theory, but doubt Bozeman speculates that far. Apart from that, there's plenty of variations between True Vintage and actual vintage same-model-Gibsons. Just as there are many sales-people out there, who actually believe the TV's are 1 : 1 copies. Copies of what, we could ask. And their answer would lean on a diffuse imagined mirage of some early 60's square. (in case we're talking Birds) Well, who can blame them. Just don't shoot them down with your knowledge when you enter the shop - go gentle. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 I would think such an edict would be coming from the ranks of Henry J if it's coming from anyone, and certainly not The Montana luthier folks as they certainly could totally replicate a former model exactly I would think. It would seem more like an edict from the very top to protect the brand, resale prices, and sell more new guitars from a company investment perspective. Henry did start the whole reissue thing during his ownership amidst his biggest competition after he just bought the company being previously made vintage Gibson models people could buy instead of new models. Just my thoughts... Jazzman Jeff aka QM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted August 20, 2014 Author Share Posted August 20, 2014 I would think such an edict would be coming from the ranks of Henry J Agree - when I wrote Bozeman, I meant the top staff, the executives, Henry's brains etc, , , but I'm still not sure they act on the background you line up. I think they want to create attractive, robust 'pictures' of something time and culture showed was very treasured out there. . In reality for all sorts of reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Interesting conversation either way. Good sharing thoughts and speculation with ya on fabulous Gibsons. Jazzman Jeff aka QM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 The Had a great oppotunity 6 weeks ago to try a first generation Hummingbird - 1960 mint ! Couldn't believe my eyes when the case was opened - pure shining tequila-sunrise-burst royalty, , , and - apropos the CNC-machine thread - couldn't believe my left hand when I felt how slim this narrow ex of the 11/16 neck had turned out those 54 years ago at Kalamazoo. This precious Gibson sounded good, no doubt, but the immaculate condition and the object as an 'artefact' kind of overshone it's identity and presence as a 6 string western guitar. Besides the sky-high tag the width would have kept a distance for my personal part, but of course the encounter was intriguing. original Surely my eyes wandered down to Hartford Snyders wildlife scenario and once again it struck : Far most of the genuine vintage H-birds I've seen have been with the imbedded, not the ingraved motif like the contemporary True Vintage models. Now I really happen to like the modern ingraved handpainted (whatever) ones and honestly rate them over the imbedded. Yet these old imbedded versions are close to being my favorites. They often have a yellow hue and are much more precise in the lines than the ones seen today. What makes wonder is why the contemporary TV's have the h-painted grooves when - as mentioned - the majority of the early Birds they want to emulate are under the plast - and why the new imbedded Standard guards aren't as freaking cühl as their 60's ancestors. Any ideas, , , any knowledge of the 2 methods used back then, , , why and when etc. . . imbedded version The original Hummingbird pickguards were not imbedded they were all hand engraved and hand painted. All Hummingbird pickguards up until the time Gibson moved to Nashville were engraved and painted. When Gibson lost the molds Gibson in an effort to cut costs and production time employed a heat stamp to create the pickguards. This was a very unsatisfactory process and was the cause of the paint wearing off. Gibson says the rush to embrace the embedded pickguards was to answer the complaints of the paint wearing off and this would address the problem. The truth of the matter is that the embedded pickguard is made in Asia and costs Gibson pennies compared to all the work they have to do on the engraved "real" version. The story on the cast original Hummingbird guard is a good one. When Gibson moved production from Kalamazoo to Nashville the mold for the cast guards was lost. Fast forward to the present when Gibson was going thru a container of stuff they found in a storage unit in Nashville. A guy came across the original cast molds and thought Montana would like to have them. He didn't know what they were for but thought they were cool so he sent them to Ren Ferguson. These are very expensive to produce and take a lot of skill and time to engrave. The cast pickguards are very stiff and sit on the top and vibrate with it. The "new" imbedded guards are a very rubbery substance and act as tone sink. You can actually roll up the embedded pickguard.It pretty disturbing and since no one seemed to notice or mind Gibson has incorporated the rubber things on other guitars as well. This is shameful. I'm not trying to be argumentative but think the lost mold is an interesting part of Gibson and Gibson/Montana history and needs to be told. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted August 20, 2014 Author Share Posted August 20, 2014 The original Hummingbird pickguards were not imbedded they were all hand engraved and hand painted. Just what I thought in the beginning, but loads of pictures have told something else. The same with the vintage Birds I've actually met and played. Recently the mint 1960 mentioned in the original post and a 1964'er ealier this year. They had no grooves and the motifs were 100 % intact. I clearly saw them as embedded. I have a huge collection of early 60's Hummingbird photos and they are all like that. Only a small part of the ones I've seen have had faded guards - and most of them were from the later part of the decade or into the 70's. Are you saying the the one on the pics above are handpainted and have grooves !?! In that case it's nothing like the contemporary TV's and for some very special (paint)technique totally missed my passionate attention. This is getting hazy, , , but let's zoom in. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted August 20, 2014 Author Share Posted August 20, 2014 A clue could be that they were handpainted from below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 A clue could be that they were handpainted from below. They were never painted on the bottom. If you read Gibson's Fabulous Flat-Top Guitars you will find that Gibson hand engraved the pickguards. I have attended vintage guitar shows for many years and have had the opportunity to buy and sell many vintage Hummingbirds. Everyone I have ever seen had engraved pickguards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 Won't stand on my hind legs for this, but clearly saw the ones I've tried as embedded - and wondered. Of course the technique used could have been so different from the contemporary TV guards that I missed it. Still don't think so. Ufortunately not many members here own early 60's Birds, but maybe we should call tbiii who has a 1962. His is one of those with both yellow and white wildlife and the motif is all intact like almost every guard between 1960 and 67/68. I guess your theory/view has the overworldly resistant German Panzer Paint as a factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted September 7, 2014 Author Share Posted September 7, 2014 ReHello Hogeye and others - Time to revive this theme. Contacted tbpiii, who was kind and interested enough to check his 1962 Hummingbird between 2 journeys. He came back with an answer that must surprise the most of us. His old guard was mostly embedded and smooth, but, , , then some places – fx the feathers of the little flier – seemed to be engraved and painted like the contemporary TV's. He mentioned it could look as if these areas were 'touched up' (which I presume means scratched free by playing hand – correct if wrong) or even not covered in the first place ?!? Didn't hesitate to use the word weird twice. Ahaa, , , so far so good – or strange. We have a big international guitar-messe coming up in the early fall here – will definitely keep both eyes open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.