brianRcarrigan Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Hey, everyone! I purchased this Epiphone PR-150 two days ago. Today I was playing it when I looked down and noticed this. Is this part of the construction of the guitar or is this a crack in the neck joint? The crack doesn't appear to have altered the finish of the neck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeleous Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Hey, everyone! I purchased this Epiphone PR-150 two days ago. Today I was playing it when I looked down and noticed this. Is this part of the construction of the guitar or is this a crack in the neck joint? The crack doesn't appear to have altered the finish of the neck. That's where the neck has a glued on heel that's what I call it instead being one all solid piece they use small blocks . I guess it's cost saving parts is parts . But the line is interesting in the fact your seeing it . if You can exchange it that would be good its a now you noticed it you'll keep looking at it thing . Over all if its still a tight joint then it should be ok if it's open then not good . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianRcarrigan Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 Thanks for the reply! I kinda thought that's what it might be, but just needed some confirmation! I appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 333 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 The neck joint is inside the guitar. You cannot see it. The neck attaches to the body of the guitar by means of a of a tenon (or tongue) that fits into a matching slot (called a mortise), which is cut into the neckblock, the block of wood attached to the guitar's body. You can see the neckblock when you look into the guitars' soundhole toward the the neck. Your picture shows the joint between the neck shaft and the heel. The shaft has the tenon that fits into the neckblock on one end, and the headstock at the other (often attached via another joint). The heel attaches to the neckshaft and the body to provide extra stability. Given that different pieces of wood will shrink and expand due to humidity or age at different rates, it's not uncommon to see the joint between the neckshaft and heel more prominently at some times, and sometimes throughout the life of the guitar once the wood reaches maturity. Boutique builders will make the shaft, headstock, and heel from one blank of wood to minimize the chances each piece will expand or contract at different rates. Sometimes they use multiple small pieces to make the heel--this is called a stacked heel. Budget and mass builders like Epiphone are more likely to use entirely different pieces of wood for each component, depending on the selling price of the model. The exception are certain models like the Masterbilts and some Elitists, that use a one-piece headstock and shaft, with an attached heel. Elitists like the McCartney Texan (or USA Lennon Casinos in the electric line) use a true one-piece headstock, shaft, and heel, as do both Gibson acoustics and electrics, mostly. The reason a one-piece neck or even a multi-piece neck cut from a single piece of wood are usually found on more costly models is because the larger pieces of wood required to make them cost more per foot than smaller pieces. This is also the reason that the less expensive Epiphones will have a joint in the shaft between the headstock as well as the heel. It costs less to make the neck with three, separate smaller pieces that were not cut from a single, larger block of wood. Red 333 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 If you look at most of the Epiphones.. you will notice the heels are just like that as well as the headstocks to neck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Looks pretty typical to me in terms of finish vs. the exterior of that wood connection. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catnine Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 It's nothing to be concerned about. Many acoustics use a separate heel and head stock and glue them to the neck. In Fact Seagull does this even on their most expensive acoustics . Many builders use what is called a scarf joint for an acoustics peg head where they cut the head at an angle and flip it over and glue it back to the neck . The idea behind this is instead of having the peg head grain ( as peg heads are at an angle to the neck) a one piece neck has short grain when cut at the peg head angle which is a weak spot and why Gibson peg heads are more likely to snap off on impact. With the scarf joint peg head the peg head wood grain is long ( the full length of the peg head ) and results in a much stronger result. The glue used is stronger than the wood and many of the scarf joint peg heads have a one piece veneer that is glued to the peg head face which ad's more strength. Now on fender strats they don't have the angle back peg head so the grain is long and strong and there is no need to do this. A glue joint does not take stain well so that's why you see it. Of course it's best if all the wood comes from the same block . I can't say for certain if Epiphone does this or not. Seagull Claims to. I have a 2004 seagull S series grand acoustic and can see the heel joint hasn't changed in all that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffenstein Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 My 2006 Epiphone J-45 has the separate heel block and headstock, but my 2014 IB64 Texan has a true one piece neck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 333 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Post a photo cliffstein, and I'll point out where the joint for the heel is. Red 333 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 333 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Post a photo cliffstein, and I'll point out where the joint for the heel is. Red 333 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffenstein Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Nevermind, Red...I found it. Once I looked at it in better lighting it was immediately in view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGgypsyboy Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Mine has it too. On a good note, traditional flamenco guitar builders in Spain have been using the stacked heel method for centuries. Done properly with opposing grains it is said to add stability. I've seen it on Flamenco and Classical guitars costing many thousands of dollars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houndman55 Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Looks okay to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 333 Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 It's nothing to be concerned about. Many acoustics use a separate heel and head stock and glue them to the neck. In Fact Seagull does this even on their most expensive acoustics . Many builders use what is called a scarf joint for an acoustics peg head where they cut the head at an angle and flip it over and glue it back to the neck . The idea behind this is instead of having the peg head grain ( as peg heads are at an angle to the neck) a one piece neck has short grain when cut at the peg head angle which is a weak spot and why Gibson peg heads are more likely to snap off on impact. With the scarf joint peg head the peg head wood grain is long ( the full length of the peg head ) and results in a much stronger result. The glue used is stronger than the wood and many of the scarf joint peg heads have a one piece veneer that is glued to the peg head face which ad's more strength. Now on fender strats they don't have the angle back peg head so the grain is long and strong and there is no need to do this. A glue joint does not take stain well so that's why you see it. Of course it's best if all the wood comes from the same block . I can't say for certain if Epiphone does this or not. Seagull Claims to. I have a 2004 seagull S series grand acoustic and can see the heel joint hasn't changed in all that time. Depending on the subcontractor that built a guitar for Epiphone, many of the joints between the headstock and the neckshaft are well below the point that the headstock angles back (sometimes as low as the third fret!), so these joints do nothing to strengthen the weak spot there. The weak spot is caused by a combination of the size of the pocket drilled for the truss rod nut, and the angle of the headstock. It's aggravated on Gibson models by the 17 degree angle of the headstock, which leaves even less wood behind the pocket than on Epiphones, which have a 14 degree angle or less mostly (barring the McCartney Texan and the Elitist Assembled in USA Lennon Casinos and Sheriton models, and the like). I have seen many a neck that was repaired successfully when it snapped, but I don't I don't think anyone would purposely build a Gibson style neck (relatively steep headstock angle, large truss rod nut pocket) and put a joint at the weak spot, simply because there isn't enough wood there in the first place. Other styles of neck, yes, but Epiphone obviously feels it is safer to put the joint either below, or as we shall discuss, above the weak spot. An Epiphone three piece neck is made for cost savings, not as a strength enhancement. It's cheaper to build from three small pieces of mismatched wood than cut a larger, single piece into two, three, or ore pieces ( a process that is done on pricier models by some manufacturers). As I indicated above, a much newer trend is for Epiphone to put the joint between the headstock and neck shaft at the point on the lower headstock where the wings flare. This is above the nut, and above the pocket where the neck is weakest, so again, it is not for strengthening the weak spot. My feeling is they do this because it camoflages the joint better, looks better, and may sound better. In the Gibson tradition (especially on acoustics), great emphasis has always been placed on the one-piece neck*. It's believed that purity is enhanced when there's one fewer joint between the nut and saddle, the two places where the string energy terminate (there's an unavoidable joint between neck and body). The joint-above-the nut design may have been an effort in that direction. I for one, however, am especially pleased with an even more recent trend: Epiphone has been building more necks than ever without a joint of any kind between the headstock and shaft. I have noticed this on many acoustic and electric models that formerly had scarf-jointed headstocks (specs subject to change, indeed--but for the better!). Since the joint in the heel probably impacts string energy transference minimally in comparison, it's an example of Epiphone striving to build guitars not just with Gibson-style cosmetics, but closer in technique and performance. Priced within reach of far more players, too. I hope they are able to continue. Red 333 *Maple necks are usually laminated. The neck is carved from a solid piece of wood, split vertically into three pieces, and then glued back together, sometimes with additional strips of maple or another wood, like walnut, in between. This done because unlike mahogany (the most common wood for a Gibson/Epiphone acoustic or electric neck), maple is very unstable and flexible. The lamination process provides additional strength, and ultimately, a unique sonic character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Hey, everyone! I purchased this Epiphone PR-150 two days ago. Today I was playing it when I looked down and noticed this. Is this part of the construction of the guitar or is this a crack in the neck joint? The crack doesn't appear to have altered the finish of the neck. Since you bought it that recently, it still should be within the return period. What about comparing it to some other PR-150s? Honestly, it is about putting up with that forever whatever it is, or possibly solve the problem at next to zero costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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