Victory Pete Posted August 26, 2016 Posted August 26, 2016 Has anyone seen these depressions in the finish on Gibson guitars? What do you do about them?
Zentar Posted August 27, 2016 Posted August 27, 2016 Has anyone seen these depressions in the finish on Gibson guitars? What do you do about them? Ive never seen that. Is it enough to foto? I have no help to offer. Just curious what that looks like.
Victory Pete Posted August 27, 2016 Author Posted August 27, 2016 Ive never seen that. Is it enough to foto? I have no help to offer. Just curious what that looks like. I cant post photos, my file is too big. Even so, a photo is hard to capture it as you have to be in certain light. Basically it is a slight depression in the lacquer that distorts the light reflected on it. It is very obvious when hanging in my studio or in my living room. the lacquer does not accurately follow the contour of the wood and looks very messy and nasty actually. Some refer to these as finish "wows".
Rabs Posted August 27, 2016 Posted August 27, 2016 I cant post photos, my file is too big. Even so, a photo is hard to capture it as you have to be in certain light. Basically it is a slight depression in the lacquer that distorts the light reflected on it. It is very obvious when hanging in my studio or in my living room. the lacquer does not accurately follow the contour of the wood and looks very messy and nasty actually. Some refer to these as finish "wows". You can post photos if you upload them to an imaging hosting site... Most of us use http://www.photobucket.com its free to use... Once you upload to there, click on an image and you will see some links down the right hand side... Copy the IMG link and then paste it directly in to your post... I also am not sure what you are talking about so would be interested to see pics.
Johnny 6 String Posted August 27, 2016 Posted August 27, 2016 Has anyone seen these depressions in the finish on Gibson guitars? What do you do about them? I haven't seen it in guitars but I think I know what you are talking about. The buffed finish ends up looking a bit like a washboard for lack of a better description. Buffing wheels (opposed to pads, dirty worn pads create their own issues like deep swirls) can get worn and dirty resulting in a unevenness in the buff wheel. This can cause the wheel to dig deeper in certain areas than others created the washboard or rippled effect in the finish. The only remedy I could suggest is to wet sand with a nice smooth flat block (your fingers will create same effect) and then re-polish. Hope that helps. Johnny
Victory Pete Posted August 27, 2016 Author Posted August 27, 2016 I haven't seen it in guitars but I think I know what you are talking about. The buffed finish ends up looking a bit like a washboard for lack of a better description. Buffing wheels (opposed to pads, dirty worn pads create their own issues like deep swirls) can get worn and dirty resulting in a unevenness in the buff wheel. This can cause the wheel to dig deeper in certain areas than others created the washboard or rippled effect in the finish. The only remedy I could suggest is to wet sand with a nice smooth flat block (your fingers will create same effect) and then re-polish. Hope that helps. Johnny It is not like a washboard but more like a "Pot Hole". The problem with simply level sanding is you may have to go down too low to level, I will not risk that, I have done that before and regretted it big time, you cant put lacquer back that easy. My plan is to spray new lacquer carefully with an air brush then level sand and buff. Apparently this is a common problem as Musician's Friend frequently sells guitars like this in their "Open Box" department. Thing is I paid a lot of money for this and shouldn't have to do this, I am just happy I can fix it though, I refuse to accept this terrible finish job. Gibson really needs to pay attention to their quality control. This is the 3rd Gibson in a row that has had issues.
Johnny 6 String Posted August 28, 2016 Posted August 28, 2016 It is not like a washboard but more like a "Pot Hole". The problem with simply level sanding is you may have to go down too low to level, I will not risk that, I have done that before and regretted it big time, you cant put lacquer back that easy. My plan is to spray new lacquer carefully with an air brush then level sand and buff. Apparently this is a common problem as Musician's Friend frequently sells guitars like this in their "Open Box" department. Thing is I paid a lot of money for this and shouldn't have to do this, I am just happy I can fix it though, I refuse to accept this terrible finish job. Gibson really needs to pay attention to their quality control. This is the 3rd Gibson in a row that has had issues. Well its not just Gibson, but the store and the purchaser to inspect the guitar for defects. I wont say I've never had defects on products I've bought, but its my job to ensure I can or cant live with them or repair them knowing its there to begin with. Especially if knowingly purchasing a returned or open box item. I assume you didnt pay full sticker price. Yes burning through the finish is a risk of level sanding, depends on how much clear is there already. Just make sure a product compatible with the nitro or you'll be into a whole other mess. Johnny
Victory Pete Posted August 28, 2016 Author Posted August 28, 2016 Well its not just Gibson, but the store and the purchaser to inspect the guitar for defects. I wont say I've never had defects on products I've bought, but its my job to ensure I can or cant live with them or repair them knowing its there to begin with. Especially if knowingly purchasing a returned or open box item. I assume you didnt pay full sticker price. Yes burning through the finish is a risk of level sanding, depends on how much clear is there already. Just make sure a product compatible with the nitro or you'll be into a whole other mess. Johnny Yes it is completely Gibson's responsibility. Their quality control is lacking these days. I should know, I have had many Gibsons and currently own 10. Most online stores never open the box, which I prefer, I like to be the first to see and judge the guitar, after all, it is mine. Why are you making assumptions about the price? I am attempting to find the exact lacquer formulation without much success.
Johnny 6 String Posted August 28, 2016 Posted August 28, 2016 Yes it is completely Gibson's responsibility. Their quality control is lacking these days. I should know, I have had many Gibsons and currently own 10. Most online stores never open the box, which I prefer, I like to be the first to see and judge the guitar, after all, it is mine. Why are you making assumptions about the price? I am attempting to find the exact lacquer formulation without much success. Sorry I didn't mean to offend. I also didn't say that there weren't QC issues coming out of Gibson, every large manufacturer will "push the envelope" on QC I see it every day in the automotive factories where the company I work for supplies paint to just about every automotive OEM there is. On that note is every spoiler, bumper, car, or other painted item assembled perfect? Not by a long shot and these are things people pay 20K-100K or more for. You had mentioned you bought it from MF's open box department, so I did assume you had $ knocked off, personally I would never pay full retail for a returned or open boxed item. From what I understand the formula like most will be a guarded trade secret. Legally I couldn't tell you what is in the paints my company supplies and I deal with the various formulas (dependent on specific application) daily so am very familiar with all the components from resins, solvents, pigments and other additives. Good luck, I hope you get it sorted to your satisfaction. Johnny
Victory Pete Posted August 28, 2016 Author Posted August 28, 2016 Sorry I didn't mean to offend. I also didn't say that there weren't QC issues coming out of Gibson, every large manufacturer will "push the envelope" on QC I see it every day in the automotive factories where the company I work for supplies paint to just about every automotive OEM there is. On that note is every spoiler, bumper, car, or other painted item assembled perfect? Not by a long shot and these are things people pay 20K-100K or more for. You had mentioned you bought it from MF's open box department, so I did assume you had $ knocked off, personally I would never pay full retail for a returned or open boxed item. From what I understand the formula like most will be a guarded trade secret. Legally I couldn't tell you what is in the paints my company supplies and I deal with the various formulas (dependent on specific application) daily so am very familiar with all the components from resins, solvents, pigments and other additives. Good luck, I hope you get it sorted to your satisfaction. Johnny I never said I bought it from the "Open Box" department.
Johnny 6 String Posted August 28, 2016 Posted August 28, 2016 Apparently this is a common problem as Musician's Friend frequently sells guitars like this in their "Open Box" department. This is what led me to believe you had..... Johnny
Zentar Posted August 28, 2016 Posted August 28, 2016 Has anyone seen these depressions in the finish on Gibson guitars? What do you do about them? Pete have you considered paste wax? If you're going to use air brush lacquer maybe you can get a layering effect from multiple paste wax applications to assist in hiding these depressions.
Victory Pete Posted August 28, 2016 Author Posted August 28, 2016 Pete have you considered paste wax? If you're going to use air brush lacquer maybe you can get a layering effect from multiple paste wax applications to assist in hiding these depressions. Thanks for the suggestion, but that would not work. The lacquer has to leveled to match the contour of the guitars surface as close as possible. Actually doing this is quite easy. When you spray a guitar the finish goes on very shiny, not exactly flat and uniform but shiny. As you carefully level sand any remaining shiny spots are the low spots. If you sand carefully until all the shiny spots are gone you may have a very good uniform surface. Then buffing takes place but you have to be sure not to go too hard and then make these depressions. It is usually when there is too much pressure and heat builds op softening the lacquer and pulling it up. It is clearly a case of Gibson not taking care and inspecting these guitars the way they should. It should have gone back to the finishing department.
Rabs Posted August 28, 2016 Posted August 28, 2016 If you are buying these new, cant you simply take them back and get a different one? It would seem a better solution than trying to fix it yourself?
Victory Pete Posted August 28, 2016 Author Posted August 28, 2016 If you are buying these new, cant you simply take them back and get a different one? It would seem a better solution than trying to fix it yourself? I bought it online and at the rate I have been getting Gibson guitars with defects I am likely to exchange these finish flaws for some other flaws. I am sure I can fix this properly, I just want to know the exact lacquer type so the sheen will not be noticeable when buffing out.
Rabs Posted August 28, 2016 Posted August 28, 2016 I bought it online and at the rate I have been getting Gibson guitars with defects I am likely to exchange these finish flaws for some other flaws. I am sure I can fix this properly, I just want to know the exact lacquer type so the sheen will not be noticeable when buffing out. No one can tell you that I don't think... And yeah that's an issue with buying online.. Really you gotta check them out in person... Not just for flaws in the finish if any but for the neck size and shape.... I think one of the issues with buying online is that they can pass off any guitars that have issues and hope the person doesn't notice or cant be bothered to swap it... If I were you id be on the phone to the manager of the shop you bought it from and demand they take it back.. and you want a new one without these issues.. You would have the right too... But I guess that's up to you... In all the years ive been buying Gibsons ive never seen one like you describe... So don't expect all of them to be like that as there are many many many that are just right. Plus I do think that the seller should take some responsibility and check every guitar that comes in and make sure its at least intonated properly... Selling one they know isnt right isn't good customer service and I think is something they all should do that way they send it back to Gibson and the customer doesn't have to get involved. The one idea I can come up with is that you contact a luthier who makes his own lacquer... That sort of person would be the most likely to know. Theres this guy in Manchester.. He makes it and provides it to Gibsons London guitar repair centre.. Maybe pop him an email and ask http://www.manchesterguitartech.co.uk/nitrocellulose-lacquer/ I have used his stuff.. Very good as far as I can tell.
Victory Pete Posted August 28, 2016 Author Posted August 28, 2016 No one can tell you that I don't think... And yeah that's an issue with buying online.. Really you gotta check them out in person... Not just for flaws in the finish if any but for the neck size and shape.... I think one of the issues with buying online is that they can pass off any guitars that have issues and hope the person doesn't notice or cant be bothered to swap it... If I were you id be on the phone to the manager of the shop you bought it from and demand they take it back.. and you want a new one without these issues.. You would have the right too... But I guess that's up to you... In all the years ive been buying Gibsons ive never seen one like you describe... So don't expect all of them to be like that as there are many many many that are just right. Plus I do think that the seller should take some responsibility and check every guitar that comes in and make sure its at least intonated properly... Selling one they know isnt right isn't good customer service and I think is something they all should do that way they send it back to Gibson and the customer doesn't have to get involved. The one idea I can come up with is that you contact a luthier who makes his own lacquer... That sort of person would be the most likely to know. Theres this guy in Manchester.. He makes it and provides it to Gibsons London guitar repair centre.. Maybe pop him an email and ask http://www.manchesterguitartech.co.uk/nitrocellulose-lacquer/ I have used his stuff.. Very good as far as I can tell. Checking guitars out in person especially any specific one I may find online is nearly impossible these days. The only game in town is Guitar Center and the ones they have on the wall are badly abused. I have bought some there 10 years ago though. If I saw one I liked way up high I would ask to try it out. I do have some Gibsons bought that way. My local Guitar Center has never had a SJ-200 in its acoustic room. The only thing they have now is 2 badly beaten J-45 Standards. Actually buying form Musician's Friend is a great experience, they give you 45 days to return a guitar. Again the sole responsibility with the three problematic Gibsons I have bought in the last 2 years was Gibson's quality control themselves. I have a small guitar repair business and have done many guitar refinishes and touchups, with this guitar being brand new I want to know the exact formulation so no obvious sheen discrepancies may arise. I touched up a Martin HD-28 and the new lacquer had a different sheen than the original, it always shows up as being shinier.
Johnny 6 String Posted August 29, 2016 Posted August 29, 2016 Checking guitars out in person especially any specific one I may find online is nearly impossible these days. The only game in town is Guitar Center and the ones they have on the wall are badly abused. I have bought some there 10 years ago though. If I saw one I liked way up high I would ask to try it out. I do have some Gibsons bought that way. My local Guitar Center has never had a SJ-200 in its acoustic room. The only thing they have now is 2 badly beaten J-45 Standards. Actually buying form Musician's Friend is a great experience, they give you 45 days to return a guitar. Again the sole responsibility with the three problematic Gibsons I have bought in the last 2 years was Gibson's quality control themselves. I have a small guitar repair business and have done many guitar refinishes and touchups, with this guitar being brand new I want to know the exact formulation so no obvious sheen discrepancies may arise. I touched up a Martin HD-28 and the new lacquer had a different sheen than the original, it always shows up as being shinier. If you were to hand buff the repair area with some Jewlers rouge it might blend in the repair area better than machine buffing. Just a thought. Johnny
btoth76 Posted August 29, 2016 Posted August 29, 2016 Hello. Hope it helps... http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_Resources/Learn_About_Instrument_Finishing_and_Finish_Repair/Lacquer_drop_fill_hiding_a_scratch_on_a_customers_Les_Paul.html http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Trade_Secrets/using_a_flash_coat_for_guitar_finish_touchups.html Good luck... Bence.
Victory Pete Posted August 29, 2016 Author Posted August 29, 2016 Hello. Hope it helps... http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_Resources/Learn_About_Instrument_Finishing_and_Finish_Repair/Lacquer_drop_fill_hiding_a_scratch_on_a_customers_Les_Paul.html http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Trade_Secrets/using_a_flash_coat_for_guitar_finish_touchups.html Good luck... Bence. I think I have seen these before, thanks for posting them.
capmaster Posted September 10, 2016 Posted September 10, 2016 Has anyone seen these depressions in the finish on Gibson guitars? What do you do about them? Short answer: Nothing. More elaborate: I know I'm late to the party but I wanted to get me an adequate overview in my arsenal, and that took me a while. To my surprise I didn't know until now what nice finishes Fender Mexico makes! You see I didn't care to give my MIM Fenders a second look for years. ;) First, all the guitars and basses of mine coated with artificial resins have mirror-like finishes across >98% of the entire surface. There are some minor ridges or grooves due to wood texture, but that's it. All brands except Gibson belong here. Gibson is a totally different story. Most of my instruments are Gibsons, and again most of my Gibsons have high-gloss finishes. Except of peghead fronts, none of them looks anyhow mirror-like, Custom Shop guitars included. There is orange peel, there are ripples and indentations, most of them hard to touch but easy to see. This applies to necks and, if applicable, coated maple fretboards as well. In my entire life I never encountered a single Gibson coming close to the surface evenness of guitars with resin finishes, no matter if alkyd, acrylic, or urethane resins. I think this simply isn't possible. There have been some Gibsons I rejected at stores for finish reasons, but probably workmanship wasn't the problem. I doubt that varying soakage of timbers can be completely levelled with fillers without affecting looks that can be important for transparent finishes. I'm in doubt if it's only about buffing wheel depressions. To my senses the finish surface lacks evenness from the start, and I think it's extremely hard to do it better in the process with any consistency. Next to all of the cheap - and I mean REALLY cheap - knockoff guitars I laid hands on had more consistent finish surfaces than Gibsons at ten, twenty or thirty times the price. I think who prefers Gibson simply will have to live with the downsides and limitations of "nitro" if I may say so. To my guess a guitar with an even finish saying Gibson is a fake. :unsure:
slimt Posted September 10, 2016 Posted September 10, 2016 Stewmac gives a example of what you can do... Now try it... the products take a long time to settle.. and patients finessing those areas out. the big buffing wheels take a lot of practice to work with. even a small wheel on a home drill device can cause issues.. . and it is very easy to burn a finish if caught the wrong way on the wheel.. Done many and payed a heavy price on a few mishaps..
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