Dead Strings Come To Life

[OldCowboy]

This time I keep it short.

 

The cores of wound guitar strings and all the plain strings are made from well-standardised piano wire aka music wire (ASTM A228, DIN 17223, EN 10270-1). No other wire has the tensile strength required, and a 650mm respectively circa 25.5" G octave string on a 12-string guitar is quite close to the limit of elasticity when tuned to pitch.

 

Now I ask you: At what age would you rate piano strings old? Would you change the strings of a piano every month?

Aw, man.... Well, it's a valid question - can't wait to see where it leads😋 Lol

[E-minor7]

Aw, man.... Well, it's a valid question - can't wait to see where it leads😋 Lol

Yeah, the felt-hammers get old before the steel-strings, don't they. .

 

 

 

[OldCowboy]

Yeah, the felt-hammers get old before the steel-strings, don't they. .

Ever had the pleasure of restringing an entire autoharp? Think of a piano: OMG!

[E-minor7]

Ever had the pleasure of restringing an entire autoharp? Think of a piano: OMG!

A small side road now, but think it's worth it for poetic, social and historic value :

 

We have a tradition here where blind people become piano-tuners. I believe it goes far back in time, but they are still around here and there.

Is it a phenomenon known where you folks live ?

[OldCowboy]

A small side road now, but think it's worth it for poetic, social and historic value :

 

We have a tradition here where blind people become piano-tuners. I believe it goes far back in time, but they are still around here and there.

Is it a phenomenon known where you folks live ?

It's not one that I've encountered before, but it makes perfect sense to me. The extra focus and sensitivity to sound should combine nicely in that regard. That's one fine tradition!

[E-minor7]

It's not one that I've encountered before, but it makes perfect sense to me. The extra focus and sensitivity to sound should combine nicely in that regard. That's one fine tradition!

'Xactly ⬆ we had one in the studio a few years ago. Unfortunately I wasn't there.

[j45nick]

Ever had the pleasure of restringing an entire autoharp? Think of a piano: OMG!

 

 

220+ strings on a piano. No wonder they go decades between re-stringing. Was reading on a piano tech site that some fine concert-grade instruments may go 50+ years without re-stringing, and with no deterioration in tonal quality. But if an instrument is in a hostile environment--coastal location with high salt content in the atmosphere, for example--strings may need replacing after 10 years.

[Victory Pete]

Interesting. A piano and a guitar are very different instruments. I imagine the tension may be higher on the piano. Also the piano strings do not get fretted in may different areas all the time. And of course there is no human contact. Piano strings also only have to reproduce one note, not many down the most of its length. I also imagine that new piano strings will in fact sound very different than when they get older. Perhaps when they get older they are still considered acceptable considering they cannot be changed so easily. Perhaps the specific construction of a piano allows the strings to sound good for a long time. Perhaps apples and oranges are different varieties of fruit.

[E-minor7]

How I like to see this thread head for page six.

Reminds me of the solos on this obscure and little known album, which contains hidden treasures, forgotten B-sides and subdued underground gems.

 

Year unknown ~

[j45nick]

Interesting. A piano and a guitar are very different instruments. I imagine the tension may be higher on the piano. Also the piano strings do not get fretted in may different areas all the time. And of course there is no human contact. Piano strings also only have to reproduce one note, not many down the most of its length. I also imagine that new piano strings will in fact sound very different than when they get older. Perhaps when they get older they are still considered acceptable considering they cannot be changed so easily. Perhaps the specific construction of a piano allows the strings to sound good for a long time. Perhaps apples and oranges are different varieties of fruit.

 

 

You do realize that fretting a string on a guitar doesn't change the tension, right? it only changes the resonant length (and therefore pitch) for the same string tension.

 

There is no doubt that contact with human hands (and their associated grunge) shortens the resonant life of guitar strings, and not necessarily in a predictable fashion.

 

No professional pianist (or a symphony orchestra) would keep old strings on their pianos if tone were compromised in any way by the strings. A set of standard strings for a Steinway "A" (standard concert size grand piano) costs about $350. I suspect it would take several days of labor to change them, but that's just a guess. All in all, it's a relatively minor cost if you have a $50,000 Steinway, but the simple fact is that changing them is rarely necessary unless the piano has been pretty badly mistreated or is being rebuilt.

 

Apples and oranges? Sure, but the dynamics and physics of stringed instruments are similar, even though the details are different.

[Victory Pete]

You do realize that fretting a string on a guitar doesn't change the tension, right? it only changes the resonant length (and therefore pitch) for the same string tension.

 

There is no doubt that contact with human hands (and their associated grunge) shortens the resonant life of guitar strings, and not necessarily in a predictable fashion.

 

No professional pianist (or a symphony orchestra) would keep old strings on their pianos if tone were compromised in any way by the strings. A set of standard strings for a Steinway "A" (standard concert size grand piano) costs about $350. I suspect it would take several days of labor to change them, but that's just a guess. All in all, it's a relatively minor cost if you have a $50,000 Steinway, but the simple fact is that changing them is rarely necessary unless the piano has been pretty badly mistreated or is being rebuilt.

 

Apples and oranges? Sure, but the dynamics and physics of stringed instruments are similar, even though the details are different.

 

Fretting a string makes the string contact a metal fret, over and over again, quite different than a piano string. Also guitar strings get bent and manipulated in may different ways. Again, a compromise in tone on piano strings may be considered quite different than that of guitar strings. Maybe they consider new strings to be overly bright and harsh, maybe they like the sound of old piano strings. Assume nothing.

[OldCowboy]

"...and the beat goes on..."

[olie]

"...and the beat goes on..."

...sigh...

[blindboygrunt]

What ARE you guys talking about !!?

 

The cheese has slid off the cracker here boys

[OldCowboy]

What ARE you guys talking about !!?

 

The cheese has slid off the cracker here boys

There's cheese?!?😧

[j45nick]

There's cheese?!?😧

 

And crackers? Gangway! I'm outa here.

 

Would a moderator please put this thread out of its misery?

[Victory Pete]

http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/134202-trolls/page__p__1816200__fromsearch__1&do=findComment&comment=1816200

[OldCowboy]

Cheese and crackers and Trolls - oh, MY!! 😱

[E-minor7]

Cheese and crackers and Trolls - oh, MY!! 😱

 

So guess I'm close to falling in the latter category with my dreamed up Dead LP

 

Disclaimer : The album does not exist - it was a free association

 

 

Now back to piano strings -

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/

;-)

[OldCowboy]

So guess I'm close to falling in the latter category with my dreamed up Dead LP

 

Disclaimer : The album does not exist - it was a free association

 

 

Now back to piano strings -

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/

;-)

I recall free association being very popular during the 1960s - oh, wait, that wasn't. free ASSOCIATION. It was ...nevermind😳

[E-minor7]

I recall free association being very popular during the 1960s - oh, wait, that wasn't. free ASSOCIATION. It was ...nevermind

 

To set things straight, strict and strunk = The disclaimer was planned to go up on Sunday anyway.

 

Just couldn't resist releasing it as I'd really like to hear the record.

[capmaster]

Fretting a string makes the string contact a metal fret, over and over again, quite different than a piano string. Also guitar strings get bent and manipulated in may different ways. Again, a compromise in tone on piano strings may be considered quite different than that of guitar strings. Maybe they consider new strings to be overly bright and harsh, maybe they like the sound of old piano strings. Assume nothing.

Please be careful - your innuendo may be offensive to piano players.

 

On the other hand, skin contact to strings can in fact change a lot. A bandmate of mine regularly kills fine guitar strings within very few minutes through corrosion - it's his skin chemistry. I don't come anything close to it with hours of playing while sweating profusely. Seriously.

 

Edgy fret crowns like on Fender vintage frets turn strings into polygons quite fast. A former bandmate of mine had them. Some like the inharmonics caused through that - I don't.

 

 

So guess I'm close to falling in the latter category with my dreamed up Dead LP

 

Disclaimer : The album does not exist - it was a free association

Well, considering all the legal bootlegs you can never be sure, but I guess its name most likely were "Deadheads Come To Life" ;)

 

 

Now back to piano strings -

Some numbers to help ruling out work hardening.

 

The standard scale of pianos of any size starts at their typical highest note c⁵ aka c''''' aka C8 with 52 mm or circa 2.047". Scale grows linearly reciprocally proportional to the tuning pitches down to a note depending on instrument size, and all the lower notes get wound strings.

 

Compared to a 650 mm or 25.6" scale guitar and assuming same standard pitch, the surface load regardless of gauge is 3.2 % higher than that of the guitar's E1st. When tuned to an a¹ aka a' aka A4 "new standard" pitch of 443 Hz due to the current pitch hike, the tension is 4,6 % higher compared to a guitar tuned to the 440 Hz standard. Note that this applies to ALL the plain piano strings, not just one like the E1st on a guitar with the rest loaded much less, with the possible exception of a wound G3rd, and except for the G octave string on a 12-string guitar that is loaded significantly higher of course.

 

You will have to look a very long time to find any work hardening issues with piano strings that virtually didn't change since more than 150 years, the end of the volume hike on pianos that also promoted the development of improved key actions then.

 

Guitar strings may have very thin coatings that allow for less surface load in any case and possibly can make them inferior in tone. Apart from coatings, however, plain guitar strings and the cores of wound guitar strings are the same as those used by Orville Gibson in the 1870's. The current state-of-the-art spring steel for steel strings has been finally refined in the early 1850's in Birmingham, England, and stayed the same ever since. It is a good example of a material technically mature since a long time.

[OldCowboy]

Now THAT is, to me, impressive! Achieving that kind of success that long ago and having truly 'hit the mark' to the degree that no further refinements or improvements are required is amazing👍

[OldCowboy]

To set things straight, strict and strunk = The disclaimer was planned to go up on Sunday anyway.

 

Just couldn't resist releasing it as I'd really like to hear the record.

Never thought to hold you accountable for what was a pretty good joke😀

[E-minor7]

The standard scale of pianos of any size starts at their typical highest note c⁵ aka c''''' aka C8 with 52 mm or circa 2.047". Scale grows linearly reciprocally proportional to the tuning pitches down to a note depending on instrument size, and all the lower notes get wound strings.

 

Compared to a 650 mm or 25.6" scale guitar and assuming same standard pitch, the surface load regardless of gauge is 3.2 % higher than that of the guitar's E1st. When tuned to an a¹ aka a' aka A4 "new standard" pitch of 443 Hz due to the current pitch hike, the tension is 4,6 % higher compared to a guitar tuned to the 440 Hz standard. Note that this applies to ALL the plain piano strings, not just one like the E1st on a guitar with the rest loaded much less, with the possible exception of a wound G3rd, and except for the G octave string on a 12-string guitar that is loaded significantly higher of course.

 

You will have to look a very long time to find any work hardening issues with piano strings that virtually didn't change since more than 150 years, the end of the volume hike on pianos that also promoted the development of improved key actions then.

 

Guitar strings may have very thin coatings that allow for less surface load in any case and possibly can make them inferior in tone. Apart from coatings, however, plain guitar strings and the cores of wound guitar strings are the same as those used by Orville Gibson in the 1870's. The current state-of-the-art spring steel for steel strings has been finally refined in the early 1850's in Birmingham, England, and stayed the same ever since. It is a good example of a material technically mature since a long time.

 

Never thought to hold you accountable for what was a pretty good joke

 

Thank you - and all very fine.

 

Now I just sit here wondering if piano strings come in phosphor bronze. .