Dead Strings Come To Life

[Victory Pete]

Since I have been buying new guitars these last few months I always restring all of them when a new guitar arrives. This gives me the ability to compare and contrast the different guitars. I have noticed that my J-45 Custom, which got the new strings first exactly 3 weeks ago started off sounding dead tonight, but when I finished playing for an hour the strings had some zing back to them. I have also noticed in the past if strings are dead you can completely detune them one at a time and bring them back up and some of the zing will be back for a while. Lets see how long it takes before someone tells me to "Just play the damn things"!

[slimt]

guitars actually sound better when there played often.. They open up very well..

[Victory Pete]

guitars actually sound better when there played often.. They open up very well..

 

Right, I have heard that the wood opens up as you play, I wonder if that is what is happening or if the strings are changing.

[jedzep]

Strings aren't the varying element but probably a weather/humidity variation, given the time of year, but I don't know which part of the country you're in.

[slimt]

Right, I have heard that the wood opens up as you play, I wonder if that is what is happening or if the string are changing.

 

I have a couple Old Gibson acoustics here..where the strings have not been changed in 20 plus years in my care.. They sound just fine..

[Victory Pete]

Strings aren't the varying element but probably a weather/humidity variation, given the time of year, but I don't know which part of the country you're in.

 

No, temperature and humidity has not changed. I am not ruling out the strings, as it has just started to do this as the strings reach the end of their useful life anyway.

[Victory Pete]

I have a couple Old Gibson acoustics here..where the strings have not been changed in 20 plus years in my care.. They sound just fine..

 

I think your definition of "sound just fine" is different than mine. I had a 1957 SJ come in my shop 2 1/2 years ago, we put on new strings, it was never played and was back here last spring, strings were completely dead with very little treble, they were stiffer than new strings and would not play in tune. Strings change at the molecular level just from being under tension.They actually go sharp as the metal tightens itself. That is why it is recommended to loosen your string if you are not going to play a guitar for a long time.

[jedzep]

Guess it's hard to know 'molecularly' watsup with the strings, but you said the guitars are new so I would think it points to wood rather than steel. A dead or flat string wouldn't regain it's integrity, unless maybe for a very short burst.

 

Drinking makes me smart, ya' know, but like with a bad string, only for a short time.

[Victory Pete]

Guess it's hard to know 'molecularly' watsup with the strings, but you said the guitars are new so I would think it points to wood rather than steel. A dead or flat string wouldn't regain it's integrity, unless maybe for a very short burst.

 

Drinking makes me smart, ya' know, but like with a bad string, only for a short time.

 

Well, I will continue to listen for this phenomenon. The thing is it only started now as the strings are coming to the end of their life. I usually change them soon when they get like this, so I have never really had an opportunity to notice this happening. If it was the wood, it would have happened at any time starting from when I first put the strings on, It seems to be only happening now when the string normally go dead anyway, do you see this distinction?

[jedzep]

Yep. You said they come back 'for a while', so it seems the strings are in a static state. Three weeks isn't much of a string life. They should be just past when they calm down and set to give you a few weeks of stable tone.

 

Whaddya' got on them geetars...Black Diamonds?

[OldCowboy]

I'm OK with whatever you folks decide. I pretty much use the same brand strings for everything in the herd, and sometimes they last longer than at others - given about the same amount of play and no big seasonal or humidity changes. Molecules? Could be. Gremlins? I can accept that, too.

[jedzep]

That makes for a good question. I guess I play each of my 3 acoustics at least 1/2 hr a day and get 3 solid months out of my $4.99/set Dunlop 80/20 12's. Are you guys pretty much on that schedule?

[j45nick]

Strings change at the molecular level just from being under tension.They actually go sharp as the metal tightens itself. That is why it is recommended to loosen your string if you are not going to play a guitar for a long time.

 

 

That's not exactly correct from an engineering perspective. The primary load-bearing component of a steel guitar string is.....steel wire. The bronze (or whatever) windings do carry some tensile load, but the steel wire core carries most of it. Most metals creep (stretch over time under load) to some extent under static load, with the amount of creep or stretch being a function of the elastic modulus of the base material, its cross-sectional area, and the applied tension. Once a guitar is tuned to pitch, all things being equal, strings will go flat over time as a function of creep.

 

In a wood guitar, however, all things are not equal. In the intervals between tuning your guitar, the guitar may go either sharp or flat, which is largely a function of the expansion and contraction of the wood of your guitar as a function of changes in humidity, which affects string tension, as well as creep of the material of the strings. It doesn't take much of a change in elongation of a string to impact on pitch.

 

If, for example, you tune a typical mahogany steel-strung guitar--say a J-45-- on a day with 40% humidity, and leave it out in a room where the humidity rises to 60% over 24 hours, the strings will go sharp as a function of the expansion of the wood of the guitar which increases the tension on the strings. If you then tune it in 60% humidity and, the humidity drops back to 35% the next day, the guitar will go flat as the guitar shrinks and the tension on the strings is reduced. There is obviously also a time element involved, as wood doesn't respond instantly to changes in humidity.

 

This assumes that you are past the initial pre-load (stretch) period of the strings which happens when you restring a guitar with new strings and tune to pitch. You know what that's like: tune it up, play it a bit, and voila, it's gone flat as the strings settle into position on the bridgeplate and on the stringposts, and as the strings stretch out.

 

In either stranded wire or bar rigging (such as a bridge), all the rigging is pre-tensioned to a certain percentage of its ultimate load before it is installed. This gets rid of most of the material elongation, just as you do when tuning up your guitar repeatedly when you put on new strings.

 

There is an added factor that usually is less critical in guitar strings: the coefficient of expansion, which is a function of temperature and is a fundamental material property, just like the tensile or elastic modulus. Steel structures expand when they get warm, and shrink when they cool. This property is much less important than changes in humidity in materials such as wood when it comes to your guitar. Steel doesn't absorb moisture, but steel guitar strings are usually attached to wooden structures that do.

 

This is an over-simplistic summary, but you get the point.

 

Once strings are "broken in", they don't creep much under static load, but they certainly don't shrink except as a function of changes in temperature. Guitars generally go sharp as a function of changes in the wood, not changes in the metal of the strings.

 

In my business, which sometimes requires precision measuring of fairly large carbon structures in the field, we sometimes have to use old-fashioned "analog" devices (steel tape measures) rather than electronic devices such as lasers (LiDAR). Those tapes are calibrated, certified, and designed to be used at a specific tension and at a specific temperature. We have correction tables for variations in temperature, and we use tension gauges to apply the correct amount of tension to achieve the calibrated accuracy (generally about one part in 10,000, or one millimetre in ten metres for a Class 1 tape). Steel, whether it is a steel guitar string, a steel rod, or a bridge, stretches when tensioned, creeps under high static load, expands when heated, and shrinks when cooled.

[jannusguy2]

Yeah! What Nick said.

[E-minor7]

One of the rewarding things about being lucky enough to own several guitars is the opportunity to really understand the individual instruments and their respective characters.

Both pros & cons.

You especially notice/feel this after a period where one model has been preferred (played a lot) and then going to another well remembered, but not played in a while.

1 - The difference can be quite shocking

2 - The strengths and weaknesses can appear very significant.

However - just as when goin' from one record to another on the gramophone - you soon get used the next guitar and 'accept' it within 15 minutes or so.

All back to normal, , , tho the Bird was a bit thin, the D-28 a bit muddy, the Dove mellow etc.

I think we all agree this is a combination of ears'n'mind and the woods simply opening up.

Yes, a guitar frequently played stays warm, which is one the most fascinating phenomenons in the acoustic realm, and it certainly can be brought back to life.

To which degree this counts for the strings as well, I'm not sure, but it seems likely that they too get their vibe heated up and thus contribute to the overall experience.

 

In what percentages the whole procedure is divided between - ears/woods/steel - is not for me to tell,

but no doubt we're are in severe state of flux during those first 10-20 minutes, , ,

and this, as said, remains to be the one the most intriguing aspects about being behind these living acoustic creatures*.

 

 

 

 

*though it's probably the same with electrics, brass- and wind-instruments, various tools, chairs, cars, card-game-partners, dentists, eeeeeehhh women, , , even types of cheese and sauce. .

 

 

 

@Nick - your post #13 is appreciated

[capmaster]

@ j45nick: Being limited to just once clicking the Plus button, I hereby additionally post my personal appreciation and esteem to you for your excellent post #13. =D>

[blindboygrunt]

Cheese and sauce 😂😂😂

[E-minor7]

Cheese and sauce 😂😂😂

 

Yea, you know they get old and cold -

So do we btw, , , hopefully not too soon. .

 

 

[62burst]

Yeah. And JannusR- your new avatar is appreciated, as well- quite topical.

 

Fun little game to play: whenever there's been a dramatic change in the weather. . . when you go to pick up the guitar- you know where the weather (and barometric pressure) has been, and what it has changed to. . . Now the guitar has "puffed up"; taken in the warmer/more humid air mass- I'm bettin' it's gonna be sharp. Fun to see if the tuner verifies your expectations. The guitar is like a big barometer with strings.

[jedzep]

So...umm what Nick's saying is uhh ...drinking DID make me smart. Just for a little while.

 

This is a new NSD, when three guitars get restrung. That makes it easy to track which set goes through it's changes quicker. NSD gives me a sense of purpose, as this is the time I take 'em all off to clean my old guitars. I hold my breath though, hoping no truss rod movement occurs. When the Dunlops go sour it usually means winter is nearly over.

 

You're right, the guitar is a barometer. I got about 36% RH in the house right now and these old chunks of wood sound crisp and clear tuned down DGCFAD.

[Victory Pete]

That's not exactly correct from an engineering perspective. The primary load-bearing component of a steel guitar string is.....steel wire. The bronze (or whatever) windings do carry some tensile load, but the steel wire core carries most of it. Most metals creep (stretch over time under load) to some extent under static load, with the amount of creep or stretch being a function of the elastic modulus of the base material, its cross-sectional area, and the applied tension. Once a guitar is tuned to pitch, all things being equal, strings will go flat over time as a function of creep.

 

In a wood guitar, however, all things are not equal. In the intervals between tuning your guitar, the guitar may go either sharp or flat, which is largely a function of the expansion and contraction of the wood of your guitar as a function of changes in humidity, which affects string tension, as well as creep of the material of the strings. It doesn't take much of a change in elongation of a string to impact on pitch.

 

If, for example, you tune a typical mahogany steel-strung guitar--say a J-45-- on a day with 40% humidity, and leave it out in a room where the humidity rises to 60% over 24 hours, the strings will go sharp as a function of the expansion of the wood of the guitar which increases the tension on the strings. If you then tune it in 60% humidity and, the humidity drops back to 35% the next day, the guitar will go flat as the guitar shrinks and the tension on the strings is reduced. There is obviously also a time element involved, as wood doesn't respond instantly to changes in humidity.

 

This assumes that you are past the initial pre-load (stretch) period of the strings which happens when you restring a guitar with new strings and tune to pitch. You know what that's like: tune it up, play it a bit, and voila, it's gone flat as the strings settle into position on the bridgeplate and on the stringposts, and as the strings stretch out.

 

In either stranded wire or bar rigging (such as a bridge), all the rigging is pre-tensioned to a certain percentage of its ultimate load before it is installed. This gets rid of most of the material elongation, just as you do when tuning up your guitar repeatedly when you put on new strings.

 

There is an added factor that usually is less critical in guitar strings: the coefficient of expansion, which is a function of temperature and is a fundamental material property, just like the tensile or elastic modulus. Steel structures expand when they get warm, and shrink when they cool. This property is much less important than changes in humidity in materials such as wood when it comes to your guitar. Steel doesn't absorb moisture, but steel guitar strings are usually attached to wooden structures that do.

 

This is an over-simplistic summary, but you get the point.

 

Once strings are "broken in", they don't creep much under static load, but they certainly don't shrink except as a function of changes in temperature. Guitars generally go sharp as a function of changes in the wood, not changes in the metal of the strings.

 

In my business, which sometimes requires precision measuring of fairly large carbon structures in the field, we sometimes have to use old-fashioned "analog" devices (steel tape measures) rather than electronic devices such as lasers (LiDAR). Those tapes are calibrated, certified, and designed to be used at a specific tension and at a specific temperature. We have correction tables for variations in temperature, and we use tension gauges to apply the correct amount of tension to achieve the calibrated accuracy (generally about one part in 10,000, or one millimetre in ten metres for a Class 1 tape). Steel, whether it is a steel guitar string, a steel rod, or a bridge, stretches when tensioned, creeps under high static load, expands when heated, and shrinks when cooled.

 

My temperature and humidity is carefully monitored and controlled. I understand what happens to wood when it is not. I also understand work hardening in metals

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_hardening

 

 

[Victory Pete]

One if the rewarding things about being lucky enough to own several guitars is the opportunity to really understand the individual instruments and their respective characters.

Both pros & cons.

You especially notice/feel this after ea period where one model has been preferred (played a lot) and then going to another well remembered, but not played in a while.

1 - The difference can be quite shocking

2 - The strengths and weaknesses can appear very significant.

However - just as when goin' from one record to another on the gramophone - you soon get used the next guitar and 'accept' it within 15 minutes or so.

All back to normal, , , tho the Bird was a bit thin, the D-28 a bit muddy, the Dove mellow etc.

I think we all agree this is a combination of ears'n'mind and the woods simply opening up.

Yes, a guitar frequently played stays warm, which is one the the most fascinating phenomenons in the acoustic realm, and it certainly can be brought back to life.

To which degree this counts for the strings as well, I'm not sure, but it seems likely that they too get their vibe heated up and thus contribute to the overall experience.

 

In which percentages the whole procedure is divided between - ears/woods/steel - is not for me to tell,

but no doubt we're are in severe state of flux during those first 10-20 minutes, , ,

and this as said, remains to be the one the most intriguing aspects about being behind these living acoustic creatures*.

 

 

 

 

*though it's probably the same with electrics, brass- and wind-instruments, various tools, chairs, cars, card-game-partners, dentists, eeeeeehhh women, , , even types of cheese and sauce. .

 

 

 

@Nick - your post #13 is appreciated

 

Good thoughts and comments

[Murph]

Too much science.

 

I'm out.

[j45nick]

Too much science.

 

I'm out.

 

 

I came back early this morning to delete my lengthy post, which was both pedantic and condescending, and written as the result of rising to a bait floated in front of my eyes. This is a danger of the internet, where Wikipedia makes us all instant experts.

 

Unfortunately, it was too late.

 

We sometimes need to hit "cancel" rather than "send". This was probably one of those occasions, but the physics of musical instruments (and music) is really fascinating.

 

But you don't have to be a physicist or engineer to write "take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind", and you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

[blindboygrunt]

You can lead a horse to water , but a pencil must be led