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GuitarJunkie

GuitarJunkie

Posted
Posted
I see there is a new sticky from the admin that says s/n verification can no longer be done in these forums' date=' that you have to email Gibson. Unfortunate, but probably a wise move.[/quote']

 

Personally, I'm kind of glad they're not doing this anymore. This was getting ridiculous...

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serial.jpg

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It was getting to the point where I wasn't even going into the Custom forums anymore. It was nothing but guys asking about their serial numbers. I bought 5 Gibsons in January and looked at MANY more. I must have called 1-800-4GIBSON at least a dozen times to run serial numbers. They're open 24 hours, so I could be browsing craigslist or ebay at 2 am, see an ad, and have an answer within 3 or 4 minutes. Couldn't be simpler. It's easier and quicker than either e-mail or the forum. I don't know why more people don't do it that way.

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LPCollector

LPCollector

Posted
Posted

 

Personally' date=' I'm kind of glad they're not doing this anymore. This was getting ridiculous...

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[img']http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/2manyGuitars/serial.jpg[/img]

____________________________________________________________________________

 

It was getting to the point where I wasn't even going into the Custom forums anymore. It was nothing but guys asking about their serial numbers. I bought 5 Gibsons in January and looked at MANY more. I must have called 1-800-4GIBSON at least a dozen times to run serial numbers. They're open 24 hours, so I could be browsing craigslist or ebay at 2 am, see an ad, and have an answer within 3 or 4 minutes. Couldn't be simpler. It's easier and quicker than either e-mail or the forum. I don't know why more people don't do it that way.

 

 

OK, good points. Maybe a separate section for serial number checks were in order.

 

I just don't get the uproar about posting them here.

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AXE®

AXE®

Posted
Posted

I've always had a beef with multiple threads with the same topic . Maybe a sticky would have been a better way of going .

I copied this from the forum rules

 

>>>>8. Before you start a topic, perform a search to see if the question or topic you wish to create has been made before. If it has, post in the topic that already exists. Duplicate topics will be moved or closed.

 

It was completly out of control ....

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GuitarJunkie

GuitarJunkie

Posted
Posted
I just don't get the uproar about posting them here.

 

Here's what I was able to find in under two minutes...

 

Example 1=================================================

fake1.jpg

 

Example 2=================================================

fake2.jpg

 

Example 3=================================================

fake3.jpg

 

Example 4=================================================

fake4.jpg

 

I can now put a legitimate serial number on my fake Wine Red LP Custom, an Alpine White LP Custom, an Ebony LP Custom, and an LP Elegant in Heritage Cherry. You're right in that there are other things one should rely on other than the serial number, but it's only a matter of time before the counterfeiters have ironed out those details. If I were one of these crooks and I had an hour or two to spend surfing this (and other) forums, I could probably find a couple hundred legitimate serial numbers with enough details to know what guitars to stick them on.

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Ignatius

Ignatius

Posted
Posted

Hey LPCollector--

 

This sort of forum discussion is great. I really like it when a group of us can discuss different viewpoints and disagree, yet listen to and try to understand each other's arguments. I really appreciate your time in trying to follow my windy post on page 1.

 

I think we actually agree on almost everything except one crucial point, where you said:

 

We agree on this..............except, it is wrong to assume that when the Admin tells someone what a serial number brings up in Gibson's data base as some form of "verification".......it's not!

True "Verification" can only be done at the Gibson factory.

 

I know what you say here is absolutely true. I also am willing to bet my income for the rest of this year that most people who have posted their serial numbers here think the response from Admin was indeed a verification of authenticity. That very issue is the problem with the Gibson serial number system and with making the descriptions that serial numbers match readily available in one place on the web. Most buyers believe a serial number marks a unit as unique, and as far as I know, that marker of uniqueness is the whole point of a serial number in most industries (and probably even for most other guitar makers). I am sure most people here did not realize that the serial number they post probably has been re-used by Gibson to indicate another instrument.

 

I guess to be honest, you have a much higher faith in dealers and shop owners than I do as well. It sounds as though you think any guitar shop owner should be able to recognize a real Les Paul from a very good fake. I don't know. I've seen a lot of reputable shop owners check out guitars they take in trade, and I have not seen them take apart guitars to verify inner electronics, etc. Yes, they do this on vintage guitars, but I am discussing newer Gibsons.

 

I am still perhaps not being clear on the point of the revealed serial numbers: if I am a counterfeiter, I already know how to fake a Gibson serial number. But, if I look in the serial number requests in the Custom Shop subforum, here is what I get for free: a serial number and the description of a guitar that matches that serial number. Now I know exactly how to fashion the fake to match the serial number. If I keep checking back enough over the weeks and months, I probably would even find a serial number that already matches some of the fakes I have made. Once that happens, my ability to sell a fake just increased radically.

 

Does that scenario make my concern any clearer? The serial number displayed in the forum tells the serial number and spells out the blueprint for how to build a guitar that matches it.

 

So here is the buyer/shop owner problem: if I see a serial number and have learned how to decode it, then I can look at this guitar in my hands--and surprise! It matches the description hidden in the serial number perfectly. I don't have time to take apart every guitar that comes into my shop so I have to assume on the spot either that it is real or a fake. Based on what I have seen here in the Gibson forums, I can never hope to be sure that the guitar here in my shop at this moment is real without taking it apart or even sending it to Gibson. Therefore, it is in my best interests to low-ball the person selling the guitar to me so that I don't lose too much money on the deal, if it turns out to be a fake I couldn't spot because I am a small-town shop owner who only sees a Gibson once every month or two, or a Guitar Center employee who knows this is not getting me any commission dollars made if I spend the afternoon tinkering with a used guitar.

 

The end result? Unless you have a Gibson expert living in your town or neighborhood, the value of authentic used Gibsons has to go down because no one but an expert can verify their value. I believe this is something similar to Gresham's Law that counterfeit money drives good money out of circulation. If I can't trust the seller, I have to reduce the value I would pay for the product. I know this is happening already, but why accelerate this by posting serial numbers and their decoded meaning? Again, I understand your point about the high end guitars, but we are talking about used guitars in the $1000-4000 range, and this is probably the sort of guitar a person buys who is making a first step into really good instruments. You simply cannot expect these people (among whom I place myself) to know all the intricacies of how to verify a guitar.

 

And we can't even trust Certificates of Authenticity. Gibson apparently has already changed them at least once because people were counterfeiting those as well, and we learned in another thread that the Canadian distributor was pulling the COAs out of shipped guitars to preserve them for "safe-keeping."

 

I hope that helps to clarify my concern a bit, and now I know I have to stop because I am running long yet again. Sorry for that, but thanks for the great conversation. I am learning a great deal from you and do appreciate it.

 

Ignatius

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LPCollector

LPCollector

Posted
Posted
Hey LPCollector--

 

This sort of forum discussion is great. I really like it when a group of us can discuss different viewpoints and disagree' date=' yet listen to and try to understand each other's arguments. I really appreciate your time in trying to follow my windy post on page 1.[/quote']

 

I agree, it's a beautiful thing when grown men can think with their brains and NOT thier ego's.

I salute you and your opinion.

 

I know what you say here is absolutely true. I also am willing to bet my income for the rest of this year that most people who have posted their serial numbers here think the response from Admin was indeed a verification of authenticity.

 

This is indeed great info...........it should have been a "sticky" post in a thread called "Serial number check" in my perfect little world...LOL! This should be info that everyone understands. Nothing to debate here.

 

That very issue is the problem with the Gibson serial number system and with making the descriptions that serial numbers match readily available in one place on the web. Most buyers believe a serial number marks a unit as unique' date=' and as far as I know' date=' that marker of uniqueness is the whole point of a serial number in most industries (and probably even for most other guitar makers). I am sure most people here did not realize that the serial number they post probably has been re-used by Gibson to indicate another instrument.[/quote'']

 

Yes, I do agree that the re-use of serial numbers should be known by "newbies" to the LP world.

However, it seems that one is assuming that the re-used serial number was on another LP? I'm pretty sure they weren't as seen from Guitarjunkie's post: example #2.

 

I guess to be honest' date=' you have a much higher faith in dealers and shop owners than I do as well. It sounds as though you think any guitar shop owner should be able to recognize a real Les Paul from a very good fake. I don't know. I've seen a lot of reputable shop owners check out guitars they take in trade, and I have not seen them take apart guitars to verify inner electronics, etc. Yes, they do this on vintage guitars, but I am discussing newer Gibsons.[/quote']

 

Actually, I don't have faith in most dealers (Superstores) until they prove me wrong. There is however, some extremely knowledgable dealers out there.......if one does their research. Again with the research.

 

I am still perhaps not being clear on the point of the revealed serial numbers: if I am a counterfeiter' date=' I already know how to fake a Gibson serial number. But, if I look in the serial number requests in the Custom Shop subforum, here is what I get for free: a serial number and the description of a guitar that matches that serial number. Now I know exactly how to fashion the fake to match the serial number. If I keep checking back enough over the weeks and months, I probably would even find a serial number that already matches some of the fakes I have made. Once that happens, my ability to sell a fake just increased radically.

 

Does that scenario make my concern any clearer? The serial number displayed in the forum tells the serial number [b']and[/b] spells out the blueprint for how to build a guitar that matches it.

 

Your's and Guitarjunkie's point couldn't be clearer and I understand fully. I understand that posting the serial number AND the model designation together gives crooks an easy mark.

It is my point of contention that not allowing the free posting these two numbers is not going to stop the counterfiters. Only knowledge can stop them. If we stop the free exchange of information on this forum.....how do we become more knowledgable?

An example of what I mean would be the Rolex vendors selling from their trench coats on the streets of NYC. If the guys on the Rolex forums stop posting their serial numbers.......is it gonna stop the guys making the fake Rolex's and the vendor in the trench coat? I doubt it..........only knowing the differences between the Rolex's will help the buyer out..........and if the vendor in the trench coat doesn't have good enough quality product, he won't sell any fake Rolex's and then in turn he won't buy anymore from his supplier, etc, etc.

Again, only more knowledge as buyers can stop this.

As far as a counterfiter making a 'passable' LP (to a knowledgeable buyer) the cost of doing so doesn't make financial sence. The counterfiters are doing this for the money, I don't think for a moment that they are willing to go to those lenghts and expense. If they were willing, why not just go legit and become real Luthiers and build their own brand?

 

So here is the buyer/shop owner problem: if I see a serial number and have learned how to decode it' date=' then I can look at this guitar in my hands--and surprise! It matches the description hidden in the serial number perfectly. I don't have time to take apart every guitar that comes into my shop so I have to assume on the spot either that it is real or a fake. Based on what I have seen here in the Gibson forums, I can never hope to be sure that the guitar here in my shop at this moment is real without taking it apart or even sending it to Gibson. Therefore, it is in my best interests to low-ball the person selling the guitar to me so that I don't lose too much money on the deal, if it turns out to be a fake I couldn't spot because I am a small-town shop owner who only sees a Gibson once every month or two, or a Guitar Center employee who knows this is not getting me any commission dollars made if I spend the afternoon tinkering with a used guitar.[/quote']

 

So, is not posting serial numbers on this forum gonna help this small town owner make a spilt decision?.....................nope, only knowledge of what he is dealing with is gonna help him. Heck, not knowing a serial number hasn't stopped them yet from producing a fake LP.

Besides, when is a guitar dealer so hurried to make a decision? Since I know little about Strats, let's put me in the shop owners position and a guy comes in with a Strat to sell. If, after research, I couldn't be sure it was what the seller said it was.........I'm not gonna buy it....period.

 

The end result? Unless you have a Gibson expert living in your town or neighborhood' date=' the value of authentic used Gibsons has to go down because no one but an expert can verify their value. I believe this is something similar to Gresham's Law that counterfeit money drives good money out of circulation. If I can't trust the seller, I have to reduce the value I would pay for the product. I know this is happening already, but why accelerate this by posting serial numbers and their decoded meaning? Again, I understand your point about the high end guitars, but we are talking about used guitars in the $1000-4000 range, and this is probably the sort of guitar a person buys who is making a first step into really good instruments. You simply cannot expect these people (among whom I place myself) to know all the intricacies of how to verify a guitar.[/quote']

 

OK, I had to Google Gresham's Law.

It states: "Money overvalued by the State will drive money undervalued by the State out of circulation."

Ironically, thats what we are doing when we place so much emphasis on overvaluating the determination of LP counterfiters.

In my opinion, the difference between overvaluating and undervaluating anything is.....you guessed it....Knowledge.

 

And we can't even trust Certificates of Authenticity. Gibson apparently has already changed them at least once because people were counterfeiting those as well' date=' and we learned in another thread that the Canadian distributor was pulling the COAs out of shipped guitars to preserve them for "safe-keeping."[/quote']

 

Yes, but one has to look at the total package of the guitar. (USA models) Does it have the right case, does it have the truss rod tool and the TR tools paperwork, the Gibson Gold Warranty paperwork, the Gibson owners manual and the Gibson checklist verifying the serial and model designation? (Custom Shop models) Does it have the right case, does it have the COA, the customer care guide, the Gibson Gold Warranty card, the keys to the case, Gibson custom tag, the bumble bee equipped tag, the Vintage correct stings tag, the package that has the switch tip in it,

the customer care kit (including cord, truss rod tool, truss rod pamphlet, picks and polishing cloth) and the strap.

I haven't even gone into the guitar yet. (which I won't for obvious reasons)

The information on how to verify a Les Paul is already on the internet which means the bad guy have access to it too.

With the exception of the MAX Les Paul, (which is worth $30 to $40 LARGE right now) it isn't financially reasonable for a counterfiter to reproduce a Les Paul exactly to specs.

 

The only way to insure we are buying a real Les Paul is to have the information to tell the real thing from a fake, not to be hiding our serial numbers from the world......and we cant save a buyer whom doesn't research the info for themselves.

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Ignatius

Ignatius

Posted
Posted
Yes, but one has to look at the total package of the guitar. (USA models) Does it have the right case, does it have the truss rod tool and the TR tools paperwork, the Gibson Gold Warranty paperwork, the Gibson owners manual and the Gibson checklist verifying the serial and model designation? (Custom Shop models) Does it have the right case, does it have the COA, the customer care guide, the Gibson Gold Warranty card, the keys to the case, Gibson custom tag, the bumble bee equipped tag, the Vintage correct stings tag, the package that has the switch tip in it,

the customer care kit (including cord, truss rod tool, truss rod pamphlet, picks and polishing cloth) and the strap.

I haven't even gone into the guitar yet. (which I won't for obvious reasons)

The information on how to verify a Les Paul is already on the internet which means the bad guy have access to it too.

With the exception of the MAX Les Paul, (which is worth $30 to $40 LARGE right now) it isn't financially reasonable for a counterfiter to reproduce a Les Paul exactly to specs.

 

And I'm saying that unless you are a) an authorized Gibson dealer; or B) an experienced Gibson buyer; you cannot be expected to know anything about any of the above, and you would have to spend an afternoon just trying to find pictures on the net of these things (that you have never seen before) in order to use them as verifying elements. Even then, I doubt you will find pictures good enough to even prove any of this is actually authentic. And if you can't do that, you don't buy the Les Paul. We now then reach the point where someone cannot actually use the Custom Care kit that comes with a guitar because they need to use it as part of the verification process. And heaven forbid that the truss rod pamphlet is missing. As many people note repeatedly, most people get none of this stuff in the case when they buy from Guitar Center so now they have a deficit in their Les Pauls' value: they cannot even say they lost stuff they never had--so the real Les Paul is looking like a counterfeit.

 

And if no one in your small town will buy the Les Paul because Gibson does not have an authorized dealer (who knows what he or she is selling) within one hundred miles of you (which is most of the United States these days, by the way, not to mention the rest of the world), then the REAL Les Paul in question has lost value to its owner.

 

Therefore, ironically, as the counterfeits become better (i.e., overvalued, according to Gresham), the value of a real Les Paul goes down (i.e., undervalued). Gresham's Law assumes both knowledgeable and unknowledgeable users of the valued product. It just points out that as fakes get better, they attract value, and this in turn drives the real ones out of the local system because it has lowered their value. Indeed, it is precisely the knowledgeable people who help to accelerate the process because they pull the real Les Pauls/real money out of circulation.

 

Great conversation, again. I am really understanding your perspective much better.

 

Ignatius

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LPCollector

LPCollector

Posted
Posted

 

And I'm saying that unless you are a) an authorized Gibson dealer; or :-$ an experienced Gibson buyer; you cannot be expected to know anything about any of the above' date=' and you would have to spend an afternoon just trying to find pictures on the net of these things (that you have never seen before) in order to use them as verifying elements. Even then, I doubt you will find pictures good enough to even prove any of this is actually authentic. And if you can't do that, you don't buy the Les Paul. We now then reach the point where someone cannot actually use the Custom Care kit that comes with a guitar because they need to use it as part of the verification process. And heaven forbid that the truss rod pamphlet is missing. As many people note repeatedly, most people get none of this stuff in the case when they buy from Guitar Center so now they have a deficit in their Les Pauls' value: they cannot even say they lost stuff they never had--so the real Les Paul is looking like a counterfeit.

 

And if no one in your small town will buy the Les Paul because Gibson does not have an authorized dealer (who knows what he or she is selling) within one hundred miles of you (which is most of the United States these days, by the way, not to mention the rest of the world), then the REAL Les Paul in question has lost value to its owner.[/quote']

 

I don't understand why the shop owner, in your opinion, doesn't need to know very much about what he is dealing with?

To me, thats like saying a Pharmacist doesn't need to know chemistry...or your Butcher doesn't need to know meats.......

 

Doesn't the little town, that the small shop owner is in, have internet access??

 

In one minute, I found these on Ebay:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/2003-Gibson-Les-Paul-Standard-Custom-Shop-Reissue-1959_W0QQitemZ170199987169QQihZ007QQcategoryZ38086QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/GIBSON-HISTORIC59-LES-PAUL-RARE03-GIBSON-AGED-BRAZ_W0QQitemZ360031000150QQihZ023QQcategoryZ38086QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/1962-VINTAGE-GIBSON-SG-Standard-Les-Paul-pics-added_W0QQitemZ140212728174QQihZ004QQcategoryZ47073QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

The information is out there within everyones grasp.

 

It looks like this all boils down to.......you believe that the uneducated should be protected and I believe the uneducated should be educated.

I'm ok with that and I respect your opinion.

I guess we have to agree to disagree......again, I'm ok with that.

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LPCollector

LPCollector

Posted
Posted
What's so funny? I actually owned one of these back in 1928.

 

LessPaul.png

 

It was a great guitar.

I could get some pretty incredable feedback noise when I played over that neck pickup' date='

but no heard it because my forearm kept turning down the upper volume pot :-$

[/quote']

 

:-$

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Ignatius

Ignatius

Posted
Posted
It looks like this all boils down to.......you believe that the uneducated should be protected and I believe the uneducated should be educated.

I'm ok with that and I respect your opinion.

I guess we have to agree to disagree......again' date=' I'm ok with that.[/quote']

 

Look, LP, I'll just stop here because I am getting sick of your claim that people are uneducated if they don't know everything you know. I teach for a living, and I am considered a good teacher, and I know that people learn slowly and erratically and by piece-meal methods. I know that if people do not see things over and over, they forget. I also know that the pictures you showed in the links in your post above are not clear enough to help someone who is dealing with a used guitar (and you keep forgetting that I am talking about USED guitars). Most of that stuff will be gone by the time the first-time buyer of a used Gibson sees most used guitars. If the materials are still there, they will not look the same if the owner has not kept them all in pristine condition.

 

You also seem to know that these pictures are themselves of genuine materials. I don't. I have never seen a certificate of authenticity in person because I have never owned a new Gibson that was made since they started shipping them with COAs. I would assume that this is also true of most guitar shop owners who have not been allowed to serve as authorized Gibson dealers.

 

And actually in terms of internet access, you will be surprised how many people in small towns lack internet access. Heck, the Guitar Center I visit in suburban Chicago often cannot get onto the Internet to check their own corporate site.

 

I think you've convinced me to give up this discussion. I surrender the field of debate. This was fun until you kept arguing that I am trying to allow people to remain uneducated. Education is my passion, as is learning. I wanted to learn; I didn't need to have someone making accusations about my intentions.

 

Ignatius

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Gutch220

Gutch220

Posted
Posted

I think we just have to get the word out to people to do their research on a particular guitar before spending a lot of money. But the counterfeiters have the same access as we do. They can check forums and see what they are doing wrong in order to fine tune their fakes.

 

I think Gibson should do "secret" things to their guitars to authenticate them. Like micro-inscribe a Logo or something with a laser that isn't visible to the naked eye. Kinda like how the US mint does secret things to the money. Or put a micro chip inside the guitar, I don't know.

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GuitarGod319

GuitarGod319

Posted
Posted
What's so funny? I actually owned one of these back in 1928.

 

LessPaul.png

 

It was a great guitar.

I could get some pretty incredable feedback noise when I played over that neck pickup' date='

but no heard it because my forearm kept turning down the upper volume pot default_eusa_wall.gif

 

 

im confused.

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Thundergod

Thundergod

Posted
Posted

 

What confused me was the addition of a second toggle switch.

Then I finally figured out that every time I switched it' date=' the lights on the marquee outside

would go out and the toaster would pop up.

 

Just smile and wave.

[/quote']

 

:P

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