Matching Gibson Heritage body size to other Gibson flattops

[SkipT2043]

Hi folks,

I have a 1965 Gibson Heritage and I'm in the process of having an old HSC restored. It's not the original but it's the case that the instrument came in when my brother acquired the guitar in '72. The restorer only has the case - he doesn't have the guitar - and he's hoping to find another Gibson square shoulder jumbo to measure so he can get the fit exactly right. I've been checking around and I'm having trouble finding out what other Gibson flattops were the exact same size and shape as the Heritage. I'm assuming that the Dove, Hummingbird, Blue Ridge, and the other square shoulder dreads were all built from the same templates, but that's just a guess - I don't know that for sure. Can anyone tell me if any of those other models were indeed the same size and shape? I want to help the case restorer get the right fit.

Thanks very much.

[RBSinTo]

 If someone here has the same guitar, you could ask them to either measure its dimensions, or do a quick outline on paper along with its thickness and send it to you.

Of course the question is, if your guitar fits the case to be restored, the restorer shouldn't have any problems.

RBSinTo

 

[j45nick]

Pretty sure all Gibson square -shoulder dreads have been built on the same body plan template since the shape was introduced in 1960.

However, if the square bodies are anything like the slope shoulder J-model bodies, there can be slight variances in individual guitars from the published dimensions, presumably just from the building process. This is true not only in body plan, but in body thickness and the amount of dome in the top of the guitar.

I discovered that one the hard way, when my original 1950 J-45 proved to be an almost impossibly tight fit in a custom case built on the standard J-45 body plan.  Another 1950 J-45 and modern SJ fit comfortably into the same case.

A lot depends on how stiff the foam lining the case is.

We are talking differences of  +/- 1/8" (3mm) or so from the design plan, as well as in body thickness and top dome.

[slimt]

It should be a black case with Gold fun fur lining and a Gibson plaque by the handle. A Heritage is the same as a  Hummingbird, Square shoulder SJ.  

[SkipT2043]

13 minutes ago, RBSinTo said:

 If someone here has the same guitar, you could ask them to either measure its dimensions, or do a quick outline on paper along with its thickness and send it to you.

Of course the question is, if your guitar fits the case to be restored, the restorer shouldn't have any problems.

RBSinTo

 

It would be awesome to have measurements from other similar models. I thought about asking but thought that might be too much to ask.

I did a outline tracing and sent it with the case hoping that would help, but having an actual instrument for sizing would certainly be preferable.

[SkipT2043]

15 minutes ago, j45nick said:

Pretty sure all Gibson square -shoulder dreads have been built on the same body plan template since the shape was introduced in 1960.

However, if the square bodies are anything like the slope shoulder J-model bodies, there can be slight variances in individual guitars from the published dimensions, presumably just from the building process. This is true not only in body plan, but in body thickness and the amount of dome in the top of the guitar.

I discovered that one the hard way, when my original 1950 J-45 proved to be an almost impossibly tight fit in a custom case built on the standard J-45 body plan.  Another 1950 J-45 and modern SJ fit comfortably into the same case.

A lot depends on how stiff the foam lining the case is.

We are talking differences of  +/- 1/8" (3mm) or so from the design plan, as well as in body thickness and top dome.

Good info and good points - thanks so much. And it's true the differences are small - my tracing was off from the factory specs by about 3/16".

The case is not the original, hence the challenge for the restorer. And I think that part of the issue right now is figuring out what to use for padding. Too stiff and there could be fit issues like you experienced. Too soft and fit/support might not be as good. Glad I'm not doing the work myself...  🙂

[zombywoof]

I assume when you say "restore" it involves replacing the lining as the cases themselves were often generic and not necessarily built to fit a specific guitar.  As, example, as far as I can figure, an early-1960s Gibson Victoria Luggae case with the  yellow lining was used for 16" lower bout slope and square shoulder 6 and 12 string guitars.    I have used the same case  to house both a slope shoulder and square shoulder B45-12 (based on the tuner imprints in the lining it originally held a 12 string) as well as my 1942 J50.  Nothing fit like a glove though. 

Back in the day though you could go to any luggage store and they would reppair your guitar case. 

Edited February 11, 2021 by zombywoof

[SkipT2043]

31 minutes ago, zombywoof said:

I assume when you say "restore" it involves replacing the lining as the cases themselves were often generic and not necessarily built to fit a specific guitar.  As, example, as far as I can figure, an early-1960s Gibson Victoria Luggae case with the  yellow lining was used for 16" lower bout slope and square shoulder 6 and 12 string guitars.    I have used the same case  to house both a slope shoulder and square shoulder B45-12 (based on the tuner imprints in the lining it originally held a 12 string) as well as my 1942 J50.  Nothing fit like a glove though. 

Back in the day though you could go to any luggage store and they would reppair your guitar case. 

Yes, it's a restoration - and a fairly extensive one at that. The case is from the 1930's and was originally made for an archtop - it's not a perfect fit for a dread but it's pretty close. It's pretty well road worn and there are places where the top and bottom plywood has separated from the sides and the inside was completely trashed - I wouldn't have used it for a fifty dollar department store guitar. There were some spots along the top and bottom where the plywood edges had worn down so much they had separated from the sides. The seams have now been fiberglassed so it's stronger than new and it's getting all new lining and padding cut to perfectly fit the Heritage. What's awesome is that it will be all brand new inside and look just like it always has from the outside.

This whole thing is quite the job, but the case has as much sentimental value as the instrument does so well it's worth it to me.

[j45nick]

1 hour ago, SkipT2043 said:

Yes, it's a restoration - and a fairly extensive one at that. The case is from the 1930's and was originally made for an archtop - it's not a perfect fit for a dread but it's pretty close. It's pretty well road worn and there are places where the top and bottom plywood has separated from the sides and the inside was completely trashed - I wouldn't have used it for a fifty dollar department store guitar. There were some spots along the top and bottom where the plywood edges had worn down so much they had separated from the sides. The seams have now been fiberglassed so it's stronger than new and it's getting all new lining and padding cut to perfectly fit the Heritage. What's awesome is that it will be all brand new inside and look just like it always has from the outside.

This whole thing is quite the job, but the case has as much sentimental value as the instrument does so well it's worth it to me.

That all sounds great. What color lining, and what material?

[slimt]

1 hour ago, SkipT2043 said:

Yes, it's a restoration - and a fairly extensive one at that. The case is from the 1930's and was originally made for an archtop - it's not a perfect fit for a dread but it's pretty close. It's pretty well road worn and there are places where the top and bottom plywood has separated from the sides and the inside was completely trashed - I wouldn't have used it for a fifty dollar department store guitar. There were some spots along the top and bottom where the plywood edges had worn down so much they had separated from the sides. The seams have now been fiberglassed so it's stronger than new and it's getting all new lining and padding cut to perfectly fit the Heritage. What's awesome is that it will be all brand new inside and look just like it always has from the outside.

This whole thing is quite the job, but the case has as much sentimental value as the instrument does so well it's worth it to me.

If its a Geib redline case. Your guitar may not fit.  Is it a round bottom or bell bottom case?   Thin waist? Or?  Was the case for a dreadnaught  Martin? Post a picture if you can.  

[SkipT2043]

2 hours ago, j45nick said:

That all sounds great. What color lining, and what material?

Yup, it is going to be pretty incredible. The material I found is a green faux suede - it has a short nap, it's very soft, and it's very close in feel to the original lining. The shop said it's nice to work with and it will hold up very well.

[SkipT2043]

2 hours ago, slimt said:

If its a Geib redline case. Your guitar may not fit.  Is it a round bottom or bell bottom case?   Thin waist? Or?  Was the case for a dreadnaught  Martin? Post a picture if you can.  

I don't know what kind of case it is - there were no labels or markings. I guess it could be considered a bell bottom case - I've never heard that term - but there are depressions in both the top and bottom. I think that's why it's assumed to have been designed for an archtop guitar.

I'm trying to upload pictures but it's not working. Maybe I just don't know how the system works yet. It's failing to upload with a message saying the limit is 500K. The file I'm trying to upload is only about 125K. Maybe the 500K limit is an account quota and I'm going over it because I already uploaded a picture...

[slimt]

5 minutes ago, SkipT2043 said:

I don't know what kind of case it is - there were no labels or markings. I guess it could be considered a bell bottom case - I've never heard that term - but there are depressions in both the top and bottom. I think that's why it's assumed to have been designed for an archtop guitar.

I'm trying to upload pictures but it's not working. Maybe I just don't know how the system works yet. It's failing to upload with a message saying the limit is 500K. The file I'm trying to upload is only about 125K. Maybe the 500K limit is an account quota and I'm going over it because I already uploaded a picture...

I have the same issue uploading. Most here suggest imgur for a photo hub. Something like photobucket. But no fees involved yet. 

[SkipT2043]

Okay, let's see if this works - before pictures of the case are here and here.

[slimt]

12 minutes ago, SkipT2043 said:

Okay, let's see if this works - before pictures of the case are here and here.

Thats a Archtop Gieb case. Have you fit the guitar to that case?

[SkipT2043]

26 minutes ago, slimt said:

Thats a Archtop Gieb case. Have you fit the guitar to that case?

That's cool you know the case. I was told it's from the 1930's - does that sound right? I haven't had a chance to go off and learn more.

The shop is getting ready to start cutting/fitting the padding and the lining material. Not sure how long that's going to take, but it will involve a fair amount of time since it's a custom fit.

[slimt]

You should fit the guitar to the case before you get it restored. Reason. One.  Thats a Redline Case  , You could possibly sell that case as is for 300 .00 or a little more and actually find a actual Gibson case that will fit your guitar.  The mid 60s cases are out there. 

Edited February 11, 2021 by slimt

[QuestionMark]

13 hours ago, slimt said:

You should fit the guitar to the case before you get it restored. Reason. One.  Thats a Redline Case  , You could possibly sell that case as is for 300 .00 or a little more and actually find a actual Gibson case that will fit your guitar.  The mid 60s cases are out there. 

I have a similar case for my 1936 Epiphone Zenith archtop guitar.  I seriously do not think a Gibson square shouldered dreadnaught guitar will fit into it.  Nor should you want it to fit.  Those archtop cases are wooden underneath their covering and have an archtop curve on their top to accommodate an archtop bridge, something that doesn’t exist on a flattop guitar.  Plus, archtop guitars have a smaller and rounded upper bout and a larger and rounder lower bout whereas a flattop square shouldered guitar is, well squarer, on the top and bottom.   It would be like trying to get a square shape into a rounded shape (or more directly like trying to get a square shaped flattop guitar into a rounded archtop guitar case.)  It’s just an obvious mismatch.  A much better case for it would be a case that’s made for a square shouldered flattop guitar that is aesthetically for a flattop square shouldered guitar, leaving the archtop case to find a home to be a case for an actual vintage archtop guitar for which it was originally purposed for.  Collectors would balk at it  and as I’ve often said, it’s a matter of how someone plays a guitar, not a matter of a guitar’s case.  (No one can play a guitar case except maybe a drummer tapping on it at a guitar jam.)   

Just my two cents.  Hope it helps.

 

QM aka “ Jazzman” Jeff

 

[SkipT2043]

I appreciate all of the information and the advice, and I've learned a lot during this thread. And I have to say that I'm really glad I joined this forum - I'm impressed by the level of involvement and the amount of knowledge. This has not been a typical forum experience for me!

I want to respond to the thoughts on fit, sourcing a more appropriate case, and whether or not it makes sense to be doing this restoration. Honestly, I know that it doesn't make sense on a number of levels - this is purely emotion and sentimentality. I watched and listened to my brother playing his Gibson since I was a little kid, and thanks to him I got hooked on all kinds of styles and artists. He gave me my love of music and he has been a big role model and the most important person in my life. For years I would jokingly rib him and ask him when he was going to give me his guitar, and at Thanksgiving a few years ago, after it had been sitting unplayed for some time, I hit him again. Again I was joking and I had a smile on my face, but maybe there was a little bit of a hopeful feeling for the first time. When I said "so when the heck are you going to give me that Gibson?" he paused for a few seconds then said "yeah, that is a good idea". I was so floored I couldn't speak for a minute. I think there may have been a little water leaking from one eye.

This case is the one that the guitar was in when my brother acquired it in 1972. It was very well worn - in fact, it was a complete rat and it was literally falling apart. The guitar didn't fit perfectly but it was good enough. As soon as I got the guitar I had it put back into playing condition and picked up a hundred dollar HSC to protect the instrument properly. The old case sat in the attic and just last year I found someone that I trusted to do the restoration. Damn the cost - I really wanted to reunite the guitar with that case. I'm going way overboard but it is that important to me given the history and the deep connection to my brother.

Sorry for the long ramble, and I hope I haven't insulted anyone. Having my brother's guitar is the greatest gift I have ever been given and I think I wanted to write this for myself... as well as stealing another opportunity to tell the story. 🙂

[zombywoof]

2 hours ago, QuestionMark said:

I have a similar case for my 1936 Epiphone Zenith archtop guitar.  I seriously do not think a Gibson square shouldered dreadnaught guitar will fit into it.  Nor should you want it to fit.  Those archtop cases are wooden underneath their covering and have an archtop curve on their top to accommodate an archtop bridge, something that doesn’t exist on a flattop guitar.  

 

 

Given the lower bout size of a 1930s Zenith, of course the Gibson will not fit.  But the majority of hardshell cases supplied with flattops from the 1920s were archtop cases.   Gibson hardhell cases from the 1920s well into the-1960s were arched.  My wife's 1960 J20 came with its original Lifton arched top case while my 1961 B45-12 rests comfortably in ia Victoria Luggage arctop which based on the imprints into the lining was supplied with a 12 string.   I also keep my '56 FT-79 in a 16" Liifton archtop case while my wife's J200 fits nicely into an early-1950s 17" Geib archtop case which I have laying around although these days she  keeps it in a modern case.       

Edited February 12, 2021 by zombywoof

[j45nick]

1 hour ago, SkipT2043 said:

I appreciate all of the information and the advice, and I've learned a lot during this thread. And I have to say that I'm really glad I joined this forum - I'm impressed by the level of involvement and the amount of knowledge. This has not been a typical forum experience for me!

I want to respond to the thoughts on fit, sourcing a more appropriate case, and whether or not it makes sense to be doing this restoration. Honestly, I know that it doesn't make sense on a number of levels - this is purely emotion and sentimentality. I watched and listened to my brother playing his Gibson since I was a little kid, and thanks to him I got hooked on all kinds of styles and artists. He gave me my love of music and he has been a big role model and the most important person in my life. For years I would jokingly rib him and ask him when he was going to give me his guitar, and at Thanksgiving a few years ago, after it had been sitting unplayed for some time, I hit him again. Again I was joking and I had a smile on my face, but maybe there was a little bit of a hopeful feeling for the first time. When I said "so when the heck are you going to give me that Gibson?" he paused for a few seconds then said "yeah, that is a good idea". I was so floored I couldn't speak for a minute. I think there may have been a little water leaking from one eye.

This case is the one that the guitar was in when my brother acquired it in 1972. It was very well worn - in fact, it was a complete rat and it was literally falling apart. The guitar didn't fit perfectly but it was good enough. As soon as I got the guitar I had it put back into playing condition and picked up a hundred dollar HSC to protect the instrument properly. The old case sat in the attic and just last year I found someone that I trusted to do the restoration. Damn the cost - I really wanted to reunite the guitar with that case. I'm going way overboard but it is that important to me given the history and the deep connection to my brother.

Sorry for the long ramble, and I hope I haven't insulted anyone. Having my brother's guitar is the greatest gift I have ever been given and I think I wanted to write this for myself... as well as stealing another opportunity to tell the story. 🙂

 

You are doing the right thing. The guitar is beautiful, not to mention it was your brother's.

I didn't have an older brother to give me a guitar, but in 1966 my older sister loaned me $50--I was a sophomore in college, and had nothing--to buy a beat-up 1950 J-45 off the wall of a store in Jackson, Mississippi.

I still have that guitar 55 years later.

She died a number of years ago, but her grandson is a good electric guitarist--I gave him the money to buy a Strat when he graduated high  school -- and he will get that old J-45 if he ever wants it someday. He'll probably want my '59 Historic ES-335 instead, so I guess I'd better keep it.

Your guitar is interesting for several reasons. I has a different pickguard from the one associated with the Heritage, and a bridge generally associated with slightly later models, but it appears to have the early tortoise binding.

1965 would a a first-year guitar, so it is possible the specs were still evolving. 

I assume you know it is a 1965 because you know when your brother bought it, or you have reconciled the serial number.

If it is a 1965, it may have solid Brazilian rosewood back and sides, according to "Fabulous Flat Tops." You can often determine whether they are solid or laminate by comparing the grain on the inside of the back with the grain on the outside. If they are solid, the grain on the inside and outside will be a very close match. That would make it a rare guitar, although the Heritage is not generally a guitar sought by collectors, as it is so different from "standard" Gibson models.

That doesn't mean it isn't a great guitar, and the family association is important.

The mid-1960s seem to be a period of overlapping and sometimes repeating serial numbers, so it isn't always easy to pin down the year of manufacture by the serial number alone.

In any case, it looks like a great guitar.

 

Edited February 12, 2021 by j45nick
added additional thought

[QuestionMark]

SkipT2043-

Thanks for sharing the story of the guitar and the case.  The Heritage guitar and its case literally has a great“heritage” connection to you!  It’s great when a guitar (and it’s case) can have an important connection and history to its player!  Very inspiring!  Thanks too for clarifying the guitar fits in the case!

Welcome to the forum!

QM aka “ Jazzman” Jeff

 

 

[SkipT2043]

4 hours ago, j45nick said:

 

You are doing the right thing. The guitar is beautiful, not to mention it was your brother's.

I didn't have an older brother to give me a guitar, but in 1966 my older sister loaned me $50--I was a sophomore in college, and had nothing--to buy a beat-up 1950 J-45 off the wall of a store in Jackson, Mississippi.

I still have that guitar 55 years later.

She died a number of years ago, but her grandson is a good electric guitarist--I gave him the money to buy a Strat when he graduated high  school -- and he will get that old J-45 if he ever wants it someday. He'll probably want my '59 Historic ES-335 instead, so I guess I'd better keep it.

 

 

I love hearing these stories - thanks for sharing that. That's so cool you still have the J after all these years.

Being able to get a Strat as a graduation gift is pretty special - I imagine having guitar means a lot to him. And if it was me, I would be honored to have the 335 AND the J-45!

[SkipT2043]

2 hours ago, QuestionMark said:

SkipT2043-

Thanks for sharing the story of the guitar and the case.  The Heritage guitar and its case literally has a great“heritage” connection to you!  It’s great when a guitar (and it’s case) can have an important connection and history to its player!  Very inspiring!  Thanks too for clarifying the guitar fits in the case!

Welcome to the forum!

QM aka “ Jazzman” Jeff

 

 

Thanks man - I appreciate the kind words!

[fortyearspickn]

Yep - you are doing exactly what most of us here would do.  To expand on J45Nickers comment -  if your guitar IS  solid Brazilian Rosewood -  it's value is significantly higher than any other ty[e of back/side tone wood on a similar model.   You'd need a real luthier to tell you if it is.  G'Luck.