How to lower the strings without buzzing

[Chinasky]

Hi guys, maybe somewhere on the forum this topic was already discussed but I couldn't find it.

I'm struggling to lower the action on the low E to less than 7/64 without buzzing. I'm trying to straighten the neck to avoid the buzzing on the 8th to 12th fret but before to avoid the buzzing there I'm getting buzzing on the first two frets, so the only way to have no buzzing is to increase the bridge up to 7/64 on the low E.  Any tips how can I get the low E on 5/64's without buzzing? 

Btw I can hear the buzzing only when I play acoustically and not through the amp but I still know that is there so it bothers me. 

Thanks

Edited June 11, 2021 by Chinasky

[rct]

Setting up a neck is not just picking numbers out of the air and trying to achieve them.  Setting up a neck is a function of function, that is, you set it up to play correctly.  Learn how to do it, get the specs from the maker, get a few basic tools and make the neck function properly.  Once you can make it function properly you can understand how it all works and you could then start trying to achieve some number you want, for whatever reason.  

rct

[kidblast]

 open strings buzzing on the first 2 or 3 frets is a very good sign of a back bow 7/64s is high for even an acoustic, for an electric, it's way too high

If you are not familiar with setups in general, I would simply advise that you find a competent setup tech, and let them take a look at it.

 

[Chinasky]

2 minutes ago, kidblast said:

 open strings buzzing on the first 2 or 3 frets is a very good sign of a back bow 7/64s is high for even an acoustic, for an electric, it's way too high

If you are not familiar with setups in general, I would simply advise that you find a competent setup tech, and let them take a look at it.

 

No, I don't have buzzing on open strings, only when pressing the frets. I'm just asking what are the other possible things I can adjust, I have the tools I needed and I want to do it by myself. The neck relief is about 0.012 ish so there is a room to straighten it more. 

[Chinasky]

7 minutes ago, rct said:

Setting up a neck is not just picking numbers out of the air and trying to achieve them.  Setting up a neck is a function of function, that is, you set it up to play correctly.  Learn how to do it, get the specs from the maker, get a few basic tools and make the neck function properly.  Once you can make it function properly you can understand how it all works and you could then start trying to achieve some number you want, for whatever reason.  

rct

I have the tools I need it, so I want to do it by myself if I can, that's why I'm asking for help, thanks.

[Larsongs]

What kind of Guitar is it? New or Old?

If it’s fret buzz when depressing a String it may be an uneven Fret. The Fret itself may need work.. It may need to be Set properly. Or some filing or addressed a number of other ways.. Including a re-fret job..

Edited June 11, 2021 by Larsongs

[kidblast]

43 minutes ago, Chinasky said:

No, I don't have buzzing on open strings, only when pressing the frets. I'm just asking what are the other possible things I can adjust, I have the tools I needed and I want to do it by myself. The neck relief is about 0.012 ish so there is a room to straighten it more. 

I set my stuff up with as little relief as possible.  Action is usually 3/64s Low E, 2/64s High E.  It's possible you have a high fret or two some where.  There's some kits you can buy to help there.  But there is a lot of little things to know.

 

[NighthawkChris]

What's the first fret action?  Should be around .020" give or take a couple thou on every string. 

Is the neck twisted?  Is the relief you measure the same on the high-E and the low-E - to verify twists? 

If you adjust relief first when tuned to pitch (perhaps standard EBGDAE 10-46), adjust string height next, pickup height, then intonation and still getting buzz, you may have fret issues.  Have a fret rocker?  Perhaps a nice straight edge where you can straighten the neck out and use a feeler gauge (~0.004" or something like this) to check if you have gaps between the straightedge and fret - when neck WOOD is ~100% straight which you usually figure out with a slotted straightedge for a Gibson scale.  Not saying you have fret issues, but is it possible? 

Going over things to check.  I can't see the guitar you're working with so forgive me or anyone for asking simple questions that are not intended to offend or imply your incapability.  There's no shame in taking some guitar you really care about to someone who can save it if you get stumped.  Everything is frustrating when you don't understand the problem. 

[rct]

Ok, so you can get down to about .010 and be good for relief on most electrics with a 12" radius, if that's what we are talking about.

Where are you measuring string height?  17thish fret on a GIbson, I hope.

rct

[Chinasky]

8 hours ago, Larsongs said:

What kind of Guitar is it? New or Old?

If it’s fret buzz when depressing a String it may be an uneven Fret. The Fret itself may need work.. It may need to be Set properly. Or some filing or addressed a number of other ways.. Including a re-fret job..

It's the one on my profile picture, Gibson Les Paul Tribute 2019, I bought it November 2019 and it hasn't been played a lot.  I put 9's strings on it so maybe that makes even more difficult. It shouldn't be any frets problem as it's a quite new guitar.

[Chinasky]

5 hours ago, NighthawkChris said:

What's the first fret action?  Should be around .020" give or take a couple thou on every string. 

Is the neck twisted?  Is the relief you measure the same on the high-E and the low-E - to verify twists? 

If you adjust relief first when tuned to pitch (perhaps standard EBGDAE 10-46), adjust string height next, pickup height, then intonation and still getting buzz, you may have fret issues.  Have a fret rocker?  Perhaps a nice straight edge where you can straighten the neck out and use a feeler gauge (~0.004" or something like this) to check if you have gaps between the straightedge and fret - when neck WOOD is ~100% straight which you usually figure out with a slotted straightedge for a Gibson scale.  Not saying you have fret issues, but is it possible? 

Going over things to check.  I can't see the guitar you're working with so forgive me or anyone for asking simple questions that are not intended to offend or imply your incapability.  There's no shame in taking some guitar you really care about to someone who can save it if you get stumped.  Everything is frustrating when you don't understand the problem. 

Yeah on the first fret is about .020 with .090 on the 12th and can still feel minor buzzing on the 9th to 12th frets but when is through amp you can't here any buzzing, but I want to set the action a bit lower. I'll keep trying different neck relief and see if I can manage at some point. Anyway, thanks for your help. 

[Chinasky]

20 minutes ago, rct said:

Ok, so you can get down to about .010 and be good for relief on most electrics with a 12" radius, if that's what we are talking about.

Where are you measuring string height?  17thish fret on a GIbson, I hope.

rct

I measure neck relief on the 7th fret when first and last are pressed and string action on 12th with open strings. Should I measure on 17th on Gibson Les Paul, never heard of that?

[NighthawkChris]

You only get the TR to do anything to the neck that isn’t in the body joint. Hence on my LPs when I measure relief, I depress the 17th fret while capping the first fret, then measure the 7th fret looking for 10-12 thou. String action should be 5/64” bass side and 3/64” treble side measuring at 12th fret. You should use 10s the guitar was made for them. 9s will work but they don’t work for me on a 24.75” scale Gibson. 

[Chinasky]

1 minute ago, NighthawkChris said:

You only get the TR to do anything to the neck that isn’t in the body joint. Hence on my LPs when I measure relief, I depress the 17th fret while capping the first fret, then measure the 7th fret looking for 10-12 thou. String action should be 5/64” bass side and 3/64” treble side measuring at 12th fret. You should use 10s the guitar was made for them. 9s will work but they don’t work for me on a 24.75” scale Gibson. 

What do you mean 9s don't work, what kind of problem they're causing, string action or...? I had 10s before, wanted to try 9s.

[NighthawkChris]

@Chinasky they can work but I personally hate 9s on a LP. They are much more flimsy and maybe why you could be having issues with buzzing… They also don’t give as much tension on the neck when tuned to pitch to counteract the internal forces of the wood and truss rod’s additional corrections to neck curvature/straightness. Some people try hybrids where they are the 9-46 sets. My 18 Classic LP came like this stock. Tributes probably do too…

[Chinasky]

2 minutes ago, NighthawkChris said:

@Chinasky they can work but I personally hate 9s on a LP. They are much more flimsy and maybe why you could be having issues with buzzing… They also don’t give as much tension on the neck when tuned to pitch to counteract the internal forces of the wood and truss rod’s additional corrections to neck curvature/straightness. Some people try hybrids where they are the 9-46 sets. My 18 Classic LP came like this stock. Tributes probably do too…

Oh ok I see what you mean. I'll give a go with the 9's for a while, to be fair the buzzing is only there when play acoustically and it's totally fine through the amp, so I'll keep with 9's for a while and probably go back with 10's next month or so. Anyway thanks for your answer, cheers.

[NighthawkChris]

@Chinasky best of luck. There are no rules, only guidelines. Enjoy making music 😁

[Larsongs]

Like I mentioned you may have some problem Frets that need attention..

[rct]

2 hours ago, Chinasky said:

I measure neck relief on the 7th fret when first and last are pressed and string action on 12th with open strings. Should I measure on 17th on Gibson Les Paul, never heard of that?

You should measure relief at the 8th, .010 is optimal, .012 is ok.  I do think they measure string heights at the 12th on GIbson scale, I guess that is the mid point of the rise on that scale length.  5/64 for the fat E sounds right I guess.  Try 5/64 at the 16th, should be good.  When I used Les Pauls with 9s they banged against the frets a lot, they are a bit lose at pitch on that scale length.  That is probably what you are calling "buzz".  It never bothered me because it wasn't an amp thing.  It is important to note that a fully functioning neck can make some righteous noise when you get jiggy with it, but is not a problem.

Are you tuning to standard E, not Eb?

rct

[Chinasky]

10 hours ago, rct said:

You should measure relief at the 8th, .010 is optimal, .012 is ok.  I do think they measure string heights at the 12th on GIbson scale, I guess that is the mid point of the rise on that scale length.  5/64 for the fat E sounds right I guess.  Try 5/64 at the 16th, should be good.  When I used Les Pauls with 9s they banged against the frets a lot, they are a bit lose at pitch on that scale length.  That is probably what you are calling "buzz".  It never bothered me because it wasn't an amp thing.  It is important to note that a fully functioning neck can make some righteous noise when you get jiggy with it, but is not a problem.

Are you tuning to standard E, not Eb?

rct

Yeah it's standard E tuning, and through the amp is totally fine so I'll keep like this for now and I may go back on 10s. Thanks for your answer.

[merciful-evans]

On 6/11/2021 at 2:19 PM, Chinasky said:

 

Btw I can hear the buzzing only when I play acoustically and not through the amp but I still know that is there so it bothers me. 

 

That doesn't sound right. Are you using gain or FX? Try using the amp  clean & listen again.

[Chinasky]

1 minute ago, merciful-evans said:

That doesn't sound right. Are you using gain or FX? Try using the amp  clean & listen again.

No pedals, just clean through the amp and is no buzzing, so it's really minor thing which I'm still trying to fix it with the perfect neck relief.

[CodenameMAT]

4 minutes ago, merciful-evans said:

That doesn't sound right.

This is definitely a thing. It's entirely possible for some minor fret buzzing to be heard acoustically but *not* through an amp

[merciful-evans]

2 minutes ago, CodenameMAT said:

This is definitely a thing. It's entirely possible for some minor fret buzzing to be heard acoustically but *not* through an amp

On a bass maybe. But a regular 6 string? Not in my experience (which is 51 year so far). If you have a clean signal properly EQd (treble at middle or higher) you should hear it.

An artificial fingerboard can sound 'tinny' acoustically (richlite, resinator etc).