Scale length and flat-picking.

[Sevendaymelee]

Been having this issue lately with a couple guitars I own, and I just wanted to know if it's just me, or a common thing. 

I have a D-18 and a Southern Jumbo. The D-18 (for those who might not know) has a 25.4 scale length, and the Southern Jumbo's is  24.75. When I use a pick to play the D-18, the guitar absolutely explodes to life. Sounds like a freakin' piano. Resinate, endless sustain, sparkle... just breath taking. But when I only use my hand to play, it almost feels muted and dull. Like, you can hear the thing wanting to sound like it did without a pick, but since my hands aren't applying enough attack, it just can't quite get there. Finger picking, on the other hand, sounds great.

With the Southern Jumbo, it's the complete opposite. When I use my hands only, it sounds lush and deep and full of folksy darkness. In other words, it sounds like what it is: a really great Gibson. But when I use a pick, it almost sounds metallic and harsh. It's really hard to describe, but that's pretty close. Sort of trebly and shrill. It's really unpleasant to the ear compared to the D-18. 

Has anyone else experienced this? I've been thinking that it's probably down to the scale length, but I'm not sure. What do you guys think?

Edited December 22, 2021 by Sevendaymelee

[j45nick]

There are a lot more variables than scale length in this equation. Body volume and distribution of that volume play a role, as do things like bracing characteristics.

I don't have a Martin dread, so can only comment on the Gibson slope-J with mahogany back and sides. I have three of those--two vintage and one modern--and each requires its own combination of picking style, strings, and picks, although they share common general tonal characteristics.

If your SJ sounds harsh when flatpicking, you may want to consider a different type of pick. If you are using medium celluloid picks, and picking fairly close to the bridge, you can get a fairly harsh, thin tone, depending on the strings you use.

If you want to warm up the tone, use a pick such as the Red Bear, which closely mimics the character of tortoise shell picks, or a Blue Chip.

I divide my time pretty equally between flat-picking and fingerpicking. Certainly there are big tonal differences there. I chase tone with a combination of strings, picks, and playing style.

[zombywoof]

Using a pick will certainly increase the amount of attack you hear.  That should be greater with a longer scale guitar.  I have no way of comparing the models you are playing as I have not owned a Martin D18 in probably 40 years now while the last SJ I owned was maybe 15 years back and was built in 1956 so a different beast than your more modern instrument.  

What you are talking about sounds to me like what I used to call "shimmering out."  I have only ever owned one guitar which I would describe as having that which was a 1950s Martin-0018.  But with that guitar it had nothing to do with playing with picks or fingers as it had that harsh clashing sound even when played aggressively with fingers.  

But in the end I agree with the above which is to experiment in the way you approach the guitar.  In your case that would mean playing around with the picks and possibly strings such as nickel compared to PB.  The only other thing I could think of would be to adjust how you approach the guitar meaning how aggressive your attack is.   Some guitars will respond best to a lighter touch although I have never found that to be an issue with even the lightest built Gibsons.  That, however, also would be one big pain. 

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by zombywoof

[fortyearspickn]

Even the same model guitar will sound a bit different.   Assuming they both have the same tops and b/s woods - but not knowing if your strings are different on the two, if one is ten years older and 'broken in',  etc. or differences in the bracing ...I wouldn't think scale length would be the cause of the type of differences you described. 

[gossmanster]

Same strings on both guitars? Overall it sounds like differences in responsiveness. The Martin is taking more energy to respond, but sounds great once it gets enough. The Gibson the opposite. Size and thickness of the top, string gauge, string type, scale length, height of the bridge (break angle), and general set up could all influence this. You might have your luthier look at the setup. I had a guitar recently that only responded to heavy flatpicking. Saddle and nut adjustment and reduced string gauge transformed it and now it’s balanced. 

[Sevendaymelee]

Thanks for the replies. And yes, same strings and pick for both. The strings are Martin SP 2.0 treated, and the pick is a .50mm Dunlop Tortex. I guess I should have mentioned both of those things in my original post. Sorry.

The thought of changing strings and picks had crossed my mind, but since I have no clue on where to start or which direction to go to achieve the sound I want, I didn't bother. I saw Red Bear and Blue Chip picks mentioned in order to tame some of the shrillness I'm hearing out of my SJ, but what about strings? 

[j45nick]

11 hours ago, Sevendaymelee said:

Thanks for the replies. And yes, same strings and pick for both. The strings are Martin SP 2.0 treated, and the pick is a .50mm Dunlop Tortex. I guess I should have mentioned both of those things in my original post. Sorry.

The thought of changing strings and picks had crossed my mind, but since I have no clue on where to start or which direction to go to achieve the sound I want, I didn't bother. I saw Red Bear and Blue Chip picks mentioned in order to tame some of the shrillness I'm hearing out of my SJ, but what about strings? 

I use DR Sunbeams (phosphor bronze on a round core, medium/light) on my mahogany guitars. They can be a little bright for some people when new, but a pick like a medium or heavy Red Bear or Blue Chip tones that down.

You will find little consistency in string recommendations here. One person's "shrill" is another's "bright."

A .5mm pick is very thin,  and will by its nature give a somewhat thinner tone. The Tortex picks I sometimes use are 1.14mm thick. The Red Bear mediums I generally use are 1.25mm thick. (Just checked those with digital calipers.)

However, it's the material as much as the thickness that determines tone. Celluloid is quite bright, Tortex a bit less.

Edited December 23, 2021 by j45nick
additional thought

[Sevendaymelee]

20 hours ago, j45nick said:

I use DR Sunbeams (phosphor bronze on a round core, medium/light) on my mahogany guitars. They can be a little bright for some people when new, but a pick like a medium or heavy Red Bear or Blue Chip tones that down.

You will find little consistency in string recommendations here. One person's "shrill" is another's "bright."

A .5mm pick is very thin,  and will by its nature give a somewhat thinner tone. The Tortex picks I sometimes use are 1.14mm thick. The Red Bear mediums I generally use are 1.25mm thick. (Just checked those with digital calipers.)

However, it's the material as much as the thickness that determines tone. Celluloid is quite bright, Tortex a bit less.

Thanks. I'll try out some thicker picks and see what I think. As for strings, have you ever tried monels? After reading these responses and searching for strings that could mellow or darken up a guitar, the internet led me to those. Thinking of trying them out. 

[fortyearspickn]

Graph Tech sells picks made of 3 different combinations of  materials which they design to produce 3 distinct levels of tone:  Bright, Warm and Dark.  Each tone category has 3 thicknesses and each has three shapes available.  They have a raised lettering/logo on both sides for enhanced grip.  After a few decades of fiddling with different picks, and liking Ultex and Tortex, settled on these TUSQ picks as best for me.   I'm not inclined to spend $20 for a pick - I lose them too easily.  

And then there are strings ...   even more choices.    But as far as your original question,  since you were using the same picks and strings,  you eliminated those variables so something else must be causing the big difference in tone.   I assume both guitars are mahogany ...  so what are the other variables besides scale length?    

  Using different picks and strings will, through trial and error, bring them closer to each other.  But, maybe you don't actually want that.  I like having choices, though mine are based on the wood, guitar body shape as well as scale length.   

Let us know what you discover.  

[Leonard McCoy]

On 12/22/2021 at 5:03 AM, Sevendaymelee said:

Has anyone else experienced this? I've been thinking that it's probably down to the scale length, but I'm not sure. What do you guys think?

While other factors come into play as well for the things you have observed, there is a definitely a correlation between string slinkiness and scale length. The longer the scale the stiffer the strings.

[QuestionMark]

I find each guitar responds differently and I adjust my playing with each guitar to get the sound I’m after at the moment.  This follows the logic that the tone is in the hands, not necessarily in the guitar.  Although, for sure different guitars sound different.  But, adjusting my playing  can also make the guitar sound different.   This isn’t something that occurred at the beginning of my playing but, it can be part of the long term guitar playing journey, if one looks for it or discovers it (and develops it.)

QM aka “ Jazzman” Jeff

[Jinder]

Monels and similar are less bright as such, but thinner sounding than PB or 80/20, as in less “wide” with overtones. Strong fundamental but little in the way of bloom. They suit the heck out of some guitars but none of those guitars seem to be mine 🤣 I have a set on my ‘67 J45 at the moment and they’re cool, but I feel that the guitar makes a more musical and agreeable noise with PBs. 
 

My first two ports of call would be setup and pick. The nature of short scale guitars is that a slightly higher action is required, as the string tension is lower which generates a wider arc of motion when the string is hit and rings out. The upshot of this is that if a short scale guitar such as your SJ is set up with the same action height as your D18 (great choices of guitar by the way!), the SJ will be more prone to the strings grazing the upper frets when ringing our after being hit with a pick, creating a metallic and harsh overtone that won’t be present in your D18 (or less so, at least) as the string tension is higher and the arc of the string in motion smaller as a result.

I’ve experienced this with J45s before. I worked as a guitar tech for several years and the artist I was on the road with at the time had a very nice J45 that was strung with 13s and tuned down to Eb. It went off for a setup whilst we were off the road and when we started the next tour it sounded great for fingerstyle but like a bag of spanners when hit with a pick. I had to undo all the setup work that had been done, alter the neck relief and replace the saddle to put it right.

I’m not suggesting you have to do that-it could be worth taking it to a luthier to be assessed though. Take your D18 along too, play them side by side and explain to the luthier what you dislike about the SJ in relative terms to the D18 and see what they can do for you setup wise.

Picks are the other major gamechanger-your choice of pick material and thickness can make more difference to your tone that your choice of strings or even choice of guitar. Tortex will give you a thicker, more rounded tone (and Ultex slightly more so still, and with greater wear resistance) with a less pronounced attack transient (the “B” of the bang as it were). Casein, as used by Charmed Life Picks, is expensive but absolutely superb tonally. Warm and full, not harsh at all, but still articulate.  Meldin, which is a self-lubricating and highly wear-resistant plastic originally used in the aerospace industry, is what Blue Chip use. It’s superb, high tech stuff which is an expensive material, hence the price of the picks. With Meldin picks I would start with the thinnest one and see how you get on. It’s a very stiff material so the 1mm+ picks tend to be very hard indeed and in the jazz pick ballpark. 
 

You can make a gigantic difference to your tone with pick choice, and even the most expensive picks aren’t much more than a couple of sets of upmarket strings. 
 

Speaking of strings, that would be my third stop with tone sleuthing. You could try going up a gauge (Gibson slopes really sing with 12s) if your current strings are shimmering out, or switching to round cores such as DR Sunbeams or Newtone Masterclass. The structure of round core strings is fundamentally different to hex core, and they resonate in a different way, with a smaller resonant arc due to the core being stiffer with greater mass. Be careful when putting them on-you have to fit them, tune them up, stretch them out, tune them again, stretch once more, tune once more then ideally play them for a few mins before cutting the string ends off. Doing anything differently will cause dead strings and all manner of weird behaviour that hex cores don’t exhibit. The correct procedure will avoid all that though! 
 

Hopefully that gives you something of a jumping off point with it all in terms of things to try. There is a world of fun to be had tone chasing!

[Sevendaymelee]

On 12/29/2021 at 4:32 AM, Jinder said:

Monels and similar are less bright as such, but thinner sounding than PB or 80/20, as in less “wide” with overtones. Strong fundamental but little in the way of bloom. They suit the heck out of some guitars but none of those guitars seem to be mine 🤣 I have a set on my ‘67 J45 at the moment and they’re cool, but I feel that the guitar makes a more musical and agreeable noise with PBs. 
 

My first two ports of call would be setup and pick. The nature of short scale guitars is that a slightly higher action is required, as the string tension is lower which generates a wider arc of motion when the string is hit and rings out. The upshot of this is that if a short scale guitar such as your SJ is set up with the same action height as your D18 (great choices of guitar by the way!), the SJ will be more prone to the strings grazing the upper frets when ringing our after being hit with a pick, creating a metallic and harsh overtone that won’t be present in your D18 (or less so, at least) as the string tension is higher and the arc of the string in motion smaller as a result.

I’ve experienced this with J45s before. I worked as a guitar tech for several years and the artist I was on the road with at the time had a very nice J45 that was strung with 13s and tuned down to Eb. It went off for a setup whilst we were off the road and when we started the next tour it sounded great for fingerstyle but like a bag of spanners when hit with a pick. I had to undo all the setup work that had been done, alter the neck relief and replace the saddle to put it right.

I’m not suggesting you have to do that-it could be worth taking it to a luthier to be assessed though. Take your D18 along too, play them side by side and explain to the luthier what you dislike about the SJ in relative terms to the D18 and see what they can do for you setup wise.

Picks are the other major gamechanger-your choice of pick material and thickness can make more difference to your tone that your choice of strings or even choice of guitar. Tortex will give you a thicker, more rounded tone (and Ultex slightly more so still, and with greater wear resistance) with a less pronounced attack transient (the “B” of the bang as it were). Casein, as used by Charmed Life Picks, is expensive but absolutely superb tonally. Warm and full, not harsh at all, but still articulate.  Meldin, which is a self-lubricating and highly wear-resistant plastic originally used in the aerospace industry, is what Blue Chip use. It’s superb, high tech stuff which is an expensive material, hence the price of the picks. With Meldin picks I would start with the thinnest one and see how you get on. It’s a very stiff material so the 1mm+ picks tend to be very hard indeed and in the jazz pick ballpark. 
 

You can make a gigantic difference to your tone with pick choice, and even the most expensive picks aren’t much more than a couple of sets of upmarket strings. 
 

Speaking of strings, that would be my third stop with tone sleuthing. You could try going up a gauge (Gibson slopes really sing with 12s) if your current strings are shimmering out, or switching to round cores such as DR Sunbeams or Newtone Masterclass. The structure of round core strings is fundamentally different to hex core, and they resonate in a different way, with a smaller resonant arc due to the core being stiffer with greater mass. Be careful when putting them on-you have to fit them, tune them up, stretch them out, tune them again, stretch once more, tune once more then ideally play them for a few mins before cutting the string ends off. Doing anything differently will cause dead strings and all manner of weird behaviour that hex cores don’t exhibit. The correct procedure will avoid all that though! 
 

Hopefully that gives you something of a jumping off point with it all in terms of things to try. There is a world of fun to be had tone chasing!

Wow, thanks for taking the time to write such an informative reply! I've tried a few things with the SJ, such as changing to 13s and going up to a .60mm pick of the same make (Tortex). It's sort of an embarrassing thing to admit, but just trying a thicker pick pretty much solved my issues outright lol. Almost all of that high-pitched twang that was annoying me is now gone, regardless of the strings used. So I guess the fix was a fairly easy (and inexpensive) procedure. 

Regarding what you said about using 12's on the SJ... is it okay to throw 13s on there without having it set up first? I ask, because when I put those 13s on there, I liked the tone better but the action was ridiculous, and--I'm not totally sure about this--I think the saddle might have been slightly leaning forward under the stress.  I'm not entirely sure if it was or not, but to my naked eye it looked like it was. When I saw it, I immediately freaked out and swapped them back to 12s, thinking I might be damaging the bridge. Now whenever I look at the saddle, it still sort of looks like its leaning a bit, but I'm not positive if its just my mind playing tricks on me or if it's actually leaning. (I could provide a picture if needed)

Have you ever heard of this happening? Are these sorts of guitars built for 12s and concurrently, not able to handle 13s without some sort of technical set up first? 

Edited January 9, 2022 by Sevendaymelee

[Jinder]

On 1/9/2022 at 8:02 AM, Sevendaymelee said:

Wow, thanks for taking the time to write such an informative reply! I've tried a few things with the SJ, such as changing to 13s and going up to a .60mm pick of the same make (Tortex). It's sort of an embarrassing thing to admit, but just trying a thicker pick pretty much solved my issues outright lol. Almost all of that high-pitched twang that was annoying me is now gone, regardless of the strings used. So I guess the fix was a fairly easy (and inexpensive) procedure. 

Regarding what you said about using 12's on the SJ... is it okay to throw 13s on there without having it set up first? I ask, because when I put those 13s on there, I liked the tone better but the action was ridiculous, and--I'm not totally sure about this--I think the saddle might have been slightly leaning forward under the stress.  I'm not entirely sure if it was or not, but to my naked eye it looked like it was. When I saw it, I immediately freaked out and swapped them back to 12s, thinking I might be damaging the bridge. Now whenever I look at the saddle, it still sort of looks like its leaning a bit, but I'm not positive if its just my mind playing tricks on me or if it's actually leaning. (I could provide a picture if needed)

Have you ever heard of this happening? Are these sorts of guitars built for 12s and concurrently, not able to handle 13s without some sort of technical set up first? 

I use 13s on my SJ200 and Maple AJ, but tune down to Eb-I have never liked the amount of stress that 13s put on a guitar when tuned to standard, although I know plenty of players who run them at concert pitch and don’t worry about it. 
 

If your saddle is leaning a little, it’s likely because it isn’t properly matched to the slot in terms of thickness-is it the stock Tusq saddle that came with the guitar? It’s unlikely that the 13s will have damaged the bridge, but they may have exaggerated the poor saddle fit and made it more obvious to the eye due to the extra tension and pressure. 
 

I wouldn’t be too panicked by it-please upload a photo if you get a min so we can have a look!

[Sevendaymelee]

14 hours ago, Jinder said:

I use 13s on my SJ200 and Maple AJ, but tune down to Eb-I have never liked the amount of stress that 13s put on a guitar when tuned to standard, although I know plenty of players who run them at concert pitch and don’t worry about it. 
 

If your saddle is leaning a little, it’s likely because it isn’t properly matched to the slot in terms of thickness-is it the stock Tusq saddle that came with the guitar? It’s unlikely that the 13s will have damaged the bridge, but they may have exaggerated the poor saddle fit and made it more obvious to the eye due to the extra tension and pressure. 
 

I wouldn’t be too panicked by it-please upload a photo if you get a min so we can have a look!

Okay. I'll have to send multiple  replies though, since they won't let me send more than one picture at a time.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Sevendaymelee

[Sevendaymelee]

One edge of saddle. 

Edited January 11, 2022 by Sevendaymelee

[Sevendaymelee]

Other end of saddle. 

 

[Jinder]

That looks fine to me. If I was replacing the saddle I would make a replacement that was perhaps a fraction of a hair thicker, but a very slight air gap at the trailing edge of the saddle isn’t unusual-these are of course hand made instruments and fitments. A CNC manufactured guitar such as a Taylor is likely to have finer tolerances but it’s all good. 
 

I’ve moonlighted as a touring guitar tech for years (pre Covid) and have recently started a business restoring and selling vintage instruments, and I’ve come across (and fixed) all manner of things which have left factories that would never have passed QC on my watch…your bridge looks fine to me. Personally I would stick with 12s (or 13s tuned down to Eb) and you’ll be good to go. 
 

Pick wise, I’ve recently got hold of some Dunlop Primetones, which are similar to Blue Chip picks but made of Ultex and a great deal cheaper. Still pricier than Tortex and similar, but well worth the upcharge. Really smooth with a lovely soft attack. I’d recommend trying them if you can!

[Sevendaymelee]

7 hours ago, Jinder said:

That looks fine to me. If I was replacing the saddle I would make a replacement that was perhaps a fraction of a hair thicker, but a very slight air gap at the trailing edge of the saddle isn’t unusual-these are of course hand made instruments and fitments. A CNC manufactured guitar such as a Taylor is likely to have finer tolerances but it’s all good. 
 

I’ve moonlighted as a touring guitar tech for years (pre Covid) and have recently started a business restoring and selling vintage instruments, and I’ve come across (and fixed) all manner of things which have left factories that would never have passed QC on my watch…your bridge looks fine to me. Personally I would stick with 12s (or 13s tuned down to Eb) and you’ll be good to go. 
 

Pick wise, I’ve recently got hold of some Dunlop Primetones, which are similar to Blue Chip picks but made of Ultex and a great deal cheaper. Still pricier than Tortex and similar, but well worth the upcharge. Really smooth with a lovely soft attack. I’d recommend trying them if you can!

Thanks for having a look and taking the time to reply. Is your suggesting of 12s based on the tiny gap between the saddle and the bridge? Or is that just a general suggestion overall based on something else? Because I really like the way 13s sound on this guitar and would rather not give them up if I don't have to lol. 

[Jinder]

On 1/12/2022 at 3:28 AM, Sevendaymelee said:

Thanks for having a look and taking the time to reply. Is your suggesting of 12s based on the tiny gap between the saddle and the bridge? Or is that just a general suggestion overall based on something else? Because I really like the way 13s sound on this guitar and would rather not give them up if I don't have to lol. 

I wouldn’t say the little air gap on the trailing edge of the saddle suggests you should shy away from 13s-it’s an entirely personal choice. You mentioned that the action with 13s was high, but that could potentially be remedied with tweak of the truss rod. 
 

Personally I prefer 12s (or 13s tuned to Eb) as I feel they’re a little less tough on a guitar in terms of string tension and potential problems further down the line. 
 

I can usually get a feel for what strings a guitar calls for by handling it for a while, some guitars just feel right for heavy wires and some (usually lighter guitars with a certain resonance when tapped on the top around the bridge) have signifying characteristics that dictate a lighter string. 
 

For example, I currently have two Kay dreadnoughts in stock, a KD28 from 1969 and a K475 which is ten years younger. The KD28 would easily handle 13s but the K475 is built and braced almost as lightly as a classical guitar, with no adjustable truss rod, and has to be strung with 10s…both identified themselves as needing those gauges after a minute or two in the hand. 

I’ve owned plenty of Gibsons in the past that have insisted on 11s, 12s or 13s too, perhaps I’m not such an extreme way as the two Kays, but they have their own ways of asking.
 

You’re unlikely to do any long term damage to your guitar by trying different gauges in the short term. If a gauge doesn’t sit well, you’ll soon feel it and identify the need to change.