EJ-200 Worth

[Leonard McCoy]

On 1/30/2022 at 1:00 PM, bobouz said:

Well actually, very close Leonard.  What I'm saying here is that these top tier pacific rim factories have the capability to build as high quality of a guitar as you want.   They are rarely asked to do so by the companies that contract out with them, and instead have traditionally filled the roll of producing entry & mid level instruments.

A clear and very real example of top-end capability is the Epiphone Elitist line produced in Japan.  Terada has manufactured all the hollow, semi-hollow, and acoustic instruments associated with this line since it's inception in 2002.  A few years before that, Terada began producing the nitro-finished bodies for the USA-Series Lennon Casino & JLH Sheraton, which were then shipped to Gibson-Nashville for installation of pickups & hardware - and received a "Assembled in USA" sticker on the back of the peghead.  Then there was the Adopt-A-Minefield (fundraiser) Paul McCartney Texan in 2005, with a version manufactured by Terada & two versions produced in Bozeman (I recall reading that Terada's version was actually closer to McCartney's original-instrument specs).  Terada also manufactured the bodies for an Eric Clapton ES-335 model associated with a Clapton/Guitar Center fundraiser campaign (one instrument per store), and these instruments were sold as full-bore Gibsons.  Want impeccable workmanship?  Terada can do it all day.  Want a flawless nitro finish?  They can lay down a thin nitro finish as smooth as glass.

Peerless built highly regarded Epiphone models for Gibson for many years through the '90s & early 2000s.  Sure, they could have built them with nitro instead of poly, and one-piece necks instead of scarfed, but they were made to fill a price-point niche.  There are other factories in Korea today, as well as the Indonesian Samick factory that can build whatever quality guitar you want, and these recent all-solid-wood Epiphone models are an indicator of that.

We no longer are talking about highly skilled craftsmen performing tasks by hand at Gibson & Martin for decades, and then retiring from the company.  What we now have are significantly automated guitar production lines, with staff that most likely last no longer than five years.  The playing field has leveled, and essentially similar production environments now exist in factories outside the USA, with capabilities to match.      

I don't buy it.

[jibberish]

54 minutes ago, Leonard McCoy said:

I don't buy it.

You think he made this up?

[bobouz]

1 hour ago, Leonard McCoy said:

I don't buy it.

No problem.  You are free to ignore whatever facts you choose.

[Leonard McCoy]

16 hours ago, bobouz said:

No problem.  You are free to ignore whatever facts you choose.

Don't sweat it.

The moment Gibson bought their rival for peanuts in 1957 and decided to fully move Epiphone production to South-East Asia (or wherever they moved production now to cut labor costs) in the early 1970s to fulfill an insufferably high demand for affordable knock-off guitars—because that is what Epiphone guitars are and have been now for over half a century—was the moment Gibson decided to let the prestigious Epiphone brand die.

Gibson's recent attempts at a U-turn are bound to fail, unless they abandon Asian production altogether and pump endless money into the brand, which would be rather ludicrous. And even then, the PR damage to the brand and its resale value is done, probably irreversibly so. Not many still remember the prestigious years of Epiphone and their classic American-made models and guitar designs. Those who do are either too dead or too senile now to put their money where their mouth is.

Economically speaking, Gibson would probably be better off producing a Texan, Frontier or Excellente with their moniker on it, but that of course poses other unsolved challenges. Epiphone as a cheapo brand will stay in the customers' heads, which have been conditioned as such for over 50 years now.

So no, I do not subscribe to your starry-eyed view. I have not seen anything from Epiphone that comes even close to matching American-made acoustics. You get exactly what you pay for with Asian brands like Epiphone (because that is what Epiphone has effectively become). The abandoned Elite/Elitist series is a forgotten thing of the past—they did not match their American counterparts in terms of quality, feel or sound, nor were they supposed to. It has been the first time in a decade I have even heard anyone mention the Elite series at all or in any high regard.

The run of Texans that were produced for the Adopt-A-Minefield gala was so short that it hardly justifies mentioning.  Nobody I know has ever really seen these instruments in person or knows anyone that does. Yes, the Terada version of the Texan had the less desirable slim nut width truer to original specs, but that doesn't say anything, now does it?

The "highly regarded" Epiphones you mentioned produced in the 1990s and 2000s were just really cheap and crappy plywood guitars that but looked the part from a decent distance away. I know because I have owned a couple of them, like the SQ-180. Even their later attempts at working with solid-wood materials failed to produce desirable results. But at least it checked some clueless customer's spec list somewhere and probably filled a niche in the market. But as it turns out, solid wood materials (of questionable quality and resonance) do not automatically make good soundboards or good-sounding guitars. The Epiphone Inspired by Texan was such an attempt—it was not a good guitar. I know because I owned one.

In the end no one is unclear as to what kind of brand Epiphone has been reduced to in the last 50 years. There is a reason the Epiphone reissues are produced in Montana and not in your magical Japanese castles in the skies and that all this is discussed here instead and not over at the Epiphone subforums. Because it is crickets over there.

Cheers to a glorious past!

Edited February 6, 2022 by Leonard McCoy

[bobouz]

Bravo - A thoughtful response that goes well beyond the curt one liner!  I agree with much of what you say, but we’re talking about two different issues:  Post 1970 Epiphone production vs the current ability of top pacific-rim makers to produce instruments on a par with their USA counterparts.  Will get back to you tonight when I have more time to discuss further.

[jibberish]

12 hours ago, Leonard McCoy said:

Don't sweat it.

The moment Gibson bought their rival for peanuts in 1957 and decided to fully move Epiphone production to South-East Asia (or wherever they moved production now to cut labor costs) in the early 1970s to fulfill an insufferably high demand for affordable knock-off guitars—because that is what Epiphone guitars are and have been now for over half a century—was the moment Gibson decided to let the prestigious Epiphone brand die.

Gibson's recent attempts at a U-turn are bound to fail, unless they abandon Asian production altogether and pump endless money into the brand, which would be rather ludicrous. And even then, the PR damage to the brand and its resale value is done, probably irreversibly so. Not many still remember the prestigious years of Epiphone and their classic American-made models and guitar designs. Those who do are either too dead or too senile now to put their money where their mouth is.

Economically speaking, Gibson would probably be better off producing a Texan, Frontier or Excellente with their moniker on it, but that of course poses other unsolved challenges. Epiphone as a cheapo brand will stay in the customers' heads, which have been conditioned as such for over 50 years now.

So no, I do not subscribe to your starry-eyed view. I have not seen anything from Epiphone that comes even close to matching American-made acoustics. You get exactly what you pay for with Asian brands like Epiphone (because that is what Epiphone has effectively become). The abandoned Elite/Elitist series is a forgotten thing of the past—they did not match their American counterparts in terms of quality, feel or sound, nor were they supposed to. It has been the first time in a decade I have even heard anyone mention the Elite series at all or in any high regard.

The run of Texans that were produced for the Adopt-A-Minefield gala was so short that it hardly justifies mentioning.  Nobody I know has ever really seen these instruments in person or knows anyone that does. Yes, the Terada version of the Texan had the less desirable slim nut width truer to original specs, but that doesn't say anything, now does it?

The "highly regarded" Epiphones you mentioned produced in the 1990s and 2000s were just really cheap and crappy plywood guitars that but looked the part from a decent distance away. I know because I have owned a couple of them, like the SQ-180. Even their later attempts at working with solid-wood materials failed to produce desirable results. But at least it checked some clueless customer's spec list somewhere and probably filled a niche in the market. But as it turns out, solid wood materials (of questionable quality and resonance) do not automatically make good soundboards or good-sounding guitars. The Epiphone Inspired by Texan was such an attempt—it was not a good guitar. I know because I owned one.

In the end no one is unclear as to what kind of brand Epiphone has been reduced to in the last 50 years. There is a reason the Epiphone reissues are produced in Montana and not in your magical Japanese castles in the skies and that all this is discussed here instead and not over at the Epiphone subforums. Because it is crickets over there.

Cheers to a glorious past!

Thanks, Leonard.

I took bobouz's post to mean that, No, Epiphones are not just as good as American made guitars, but that's because their place in the market doesn't call for it. They're perfectly happy churning out clunky EJ-200s and such crap. However, there is evidence that they COULD up-their-game if need be. The example of the Epiphone Elitist Casino vs the regular Casino that you see most folks with is a very good example of this.  Not better than a 335, yet it certainly shows ability to improve.

And just for the record, I think modern Epiphones suck. I did, however, once pay $250 for a sunburst non cutaway EJ-200, as I felt it was a very fine $250 guitar. I've spent $250 on worse things.  As the original poster of this thread, I simply did so to see how high other folks (who appreciate vintage Gibsons) would pay. It seems $300 is the consensus.

Unfortunately, I foolishly did not foresee the cacophony of twats making no attempt to answer my question (present company excluded).  😄

[bobouz]

On 2/6/2022 at 4:01 AM, Leonard McCoy said:

So no, I do not subscribe to your starry-eyed view. I have not seen anything from Epiphone that comes even close to matching American-made acoustics. You get exactly what you pay for with Asian brands like Epiphone (because that is what Epiphone has effectively become). The abandoned Elite/Elitist series is a forgotten thing of the past—they did not match their American counterparts in terms of quality, feel or sound, nor were they supposed to. It has been the first time in a decade I have even heard anyone mention the Elite series at all or in any high regard.

The run of Texans that were produced for the Adopt-A-Minefield gala was so short that it hardly justifies mentioning.  Nobody I know has ever really seen these instruments in person or knows anyone that does. Yes, the Terada version of the Texan had the less desirable slim nut width truer to original specs, but that doesn't say anything, now does it?

The "highly regarded" Epiphones you mentioned produced in the 1990s and 2000s were just really cheap and crappy plywood guitars that but looked the part from a decent distance away. I know because I have owned a couple of them, like the SQ-180. Even their later attempts at working with solid-wood materials failed to produce desirable results. But at least it checked some clueless customer's spec list somewhere and probably filled a niche in the market. But as it turns out, solid wood materials (of questionable quality and resonance) do not automatically make good soundboards or good-sounding guitars. The Epiphone Inspired by Texan was such an attempt—it was not a good guitar. I know because I owned one.

Ah, where to begin.  First let me say that you now have met someone who owns a 2005 Terada-made 1964 McCartney Epiphone Texan.....  and also a Terada-made 2000 USA-Series John Lee Hooker Sheraton.....  and also a Terada-made Elitist Casino.  I have also played an Elitist Byrdland.  And I've been able to directly compare the quality of those instruments to similar guitars I currently own including a J-45 Rosewood, J-50, ES-330L, ES-33Ovos, ES-335, & ES-339, as well as other Gibsons I currently own or have played.  The world is littered with guitar generalizations regarding brands, manufacturers, eras, and so on.  I never put out a specific opinion on the build quality or tone/playability of an instrument unless I've owned it, or have had it in hand to play.

Now remember, my point here has nothing to do with the demise of the Epiphone brand.  I'm reasonably well versed on the history of both Epi acoustics and electrics, post 1970.  I started playing guitar in 1971, at the ripe old age of twenty.  A college friend showed me a few chords and a Travis picking pattern, and off I went to the music store to buy a guitar.  The only choices in my entry-level price range were Yamahas made in Taiwan, and Epiphones made in Japan.  In comparing the two, even then the Epiphones struck me as cheaply made.  The four-bolt neck & very mediocre tone steered me directly towards the Yamahas.  In the following two years, I became somewhat obsessed with guitar construction, and by '73 had made a habit of looking for good quality older guitars at flea markets to buy cheap, repair as needed, and trade in to buy the best high quality guitar I could afford.  Those tactics landed me four new Guilds (D-40, F-20, F-30, F-40) at various points during the decade.  Some of my flea market finds included a number of Gibsons: '48 L-48, '50s LG2-3/4, '50s ES-125, and a '64 Epiphone FT-45n that ended up having a lifelong impact on my tonal preferences.  Many Gibsons & Epiphones were to follow, so yes, I get where you're coming from.

With the above said, let's take a look pacific-rim build quality.  Even back in the '70s, there were clear signs by the end of the decade that Japanese factories were capable of building some fine instruments, including mandolins & guitars marketed by Ibanez (again, which I owned & played) and Takamine (including a Gallagher Doc Watson clone that was quite impressive).  But I want to move forward into the '90s & 2000s to talk about Peerless.  Like almost all Epiphone acoustics outsourced first to Japan, then Korea and China, Gibson has continually speced these instruments to fill the very lowest price points.  But on the electric side, Peerless built Epiphones with a significantly more refined level of build quality.  Models such as the Casino, Regent, and Emperor that came out of the Peerless factory were being recognized as excellent bodies to upgrade (as Gibson saddled them with mediocre electronics).  At one point there were four Korean factories manufacturing Epi electrics.  When I sold my Peerless Casino, the fact that it came from Peerless was a very real selling point I was able to utilize (and today, you will continue to find sellers on Reverb using Peerless as a selling point).  Peerless clearly had the capability to build fine quality instruments.  Today, there is a Korean factory building electrics for Guild.  Again, I can tell you about them first hand, because I own a fully acoustic Guild archtop made in 2014, before Fender sold the Guild brand to Cordoba.  This model is the A-150b (blonde), with a solid spruce top & floating D'Armond monkey-stick pickup.  Overall build quality is very high, and speaks volumes about their capabilities.

Now let's get to the most direct example of world class build quality I can discuss first hand - Terada.  It is my understanding that Ibanez sourced instruments from Tereada as far back as the '70s.  They were building Epiphone electrics for Gibson in the very early '80s, but then Gibson turned to Korea for it's acoustic & electric production.  However in 1999, Gibson returned to Terada to build the USA-Series Lennon Casino (two versions), and then the following year added the John Lee Hooker Sheraton (there had been a Korean JLH version in the '90s that did not remotely compare to the two new Terada JLH models).  These models essentially represented Gibson telling Terada to utilize their finest build quality, for a product that would be labeled as "Assembled in the USA" and sold as comparable to Gibson's own ES instruments.  Because of the models I own, I can tell you through first-hand comparisons that the Terada JLH Sheraton's build quality is unquestionably on a par with it's Gibson counterparts.  The USA-Series Epis flew briefly under the radar, but they clearly demonstrated that Terada had become a world class manufacturer.  In 2002, the rather extensive Epi Elite (later Elitist) line was released, with the Riviera and another new Sheraton version immediately being recognized as best-buy picks by Guitar Player Magazine.   Elitist models remain in demand and sell well on Reverb.  Of all the models produced, the Byrdland and Broadway represent Terada's finest Elitist endeavors, with carved solid spruce tops, and again, impeccable quality.

So on to the McCartney Texan, the only guitars Paul has ever allowed to use his name for endorsement/selling purposes.  This is another model people know little about today, but it's the best example I'm aware of where Gibson finally asked Terada to build an acoustic with the build quality of a Gibson, and with solid woods throughout.  When the one I own arrived, after setting it up to my preferences, I was floored by the tone I was getting - it just nailed the dry & slightly metallic overtones I so love from '60s Gibsons with adjustable bridges.  My example of the Terada McCartney Texan feels light as a feather, and is easily equal to today's Bozeman Gibsons in build quality.  And once again, I can directly compare it to the two very fine Gibson roundshoulders I own.  All three are different, but they are all equally satisfying.

The guitar industry has changed and evolved considerably from the earliest days of offshore production.  The best builders worldwide use similarly automated equipment, and employ labor forces populated with people who just need a job.  The Kalamazoo days of skilled craftsmen working their entire careers with one company & retiring with a pension are long gone.  Guitars are built differently today, and what the manufacturing process looks like around the world has increasingly leveled out.  That said, who manufactures what & where will continue to be driven by specific price points, and of course, labor costs.

Fun stuff, huh?  I don't know what will determine Gibson's future directions, but the more USA-made Epi classics, the better!  (Edit: The oval-soundhole Howard Roberts acoustic carved-spruce archtop would be soooo cool!).

              

Edited February 8, 2022 by bobouz