BluesKing777 Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 (edited) So in Oct 27 2012!!!!, I posted the below NGD announcement for my 1935 Gibson Black Special #4. It is an archie so just rotating to it from other guitars can get tricky to acclimate! I played it for about half an hour yesterday, hmmm....gone quiet. Played it the wrong way as well. So grabbed it again at the end of the day and bang - it had come back to life! And I decided I would dedicate the whole weekend's playing to it! What an incredible blues fingerpicker! Ands all kinds of music really but that is my main love for it. In the original post below, I had not worked out Gibbie photo loading yet, HA! I am the photo loading master now! The whole thread is 'Archived' at Gibbie, won't open for reply, so I copied it! 🤩 Here tis: C.1935 Gibson L50 Black Finish By BluesKing777 October 26, 2012 in Gibson Acoustic Start new topic Moderation Actions BluesKing777 All Access 9.6k Posted October 26, 2012 http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/images/45U/45U-1445_front.jpg Just got one LIKE the picture, but with pickguard, NOT this one 'cos I can't get my photos to work on the Forum... Too late - I have already bought the farm so to speak - C.1935 Gibson L-50 Black Finish, but while I love it, there is scant information on the Internet about this model. Anything from the Gibson experts, or non-experts??? BluesKing777. BluesKing777 All Access 9.6k Author Posted October 27, 2012 No info? Oh well... Not much on the web either - I have read every skerrick available over the previous weeks. Apparently, Gibson brought them out as a cheaper option with the black paint instead of the sunbursts, but the rest is a bit of a mystery. Mr Fox had a few scarce details and a guy on the M forum has some. Don't care 'cos I loves it ....perfect for my blues pickin', but not much good for the people that want a happy, shiny guitar! Has a very astringent, nail-on-the-blackboard tone and not much sustain - great for country blues and Freddie Green jazz chords. Somehow a Gibson tone comes through and I don't know how they do that, except for the rumour of a magic can of sound worms, 'cos it is very different from my LG3, but similar sounding in some ways? Someone has played the 3 or 4 note Freddie Green chords up and down the massive V neck 4 billion times, and worn the finish off exactly where those chords fall - very different wear patterns than cowboy chords and modern guitar playing. BluesKing777. j45nick All Access 12.7k LocationSouth Florida Posted October 27, 2012 This is about as much information as you may find, although I am sure there is more if you google "Gibson archtops". My link The tone you describe sounds very typical of archtops: sharp attack, quick decay. They were often used as rhythm instruments in jazz orchestras in the pre-amplification days, and could cut through horns with that sharp attack. I'm still working to come to terms with the 1947 L-7 I have, as it plays unlike any other guitar I own. It is very good with big block barre cord progressions up the neck. String selection is pretty critical with these, and you'll find differing opinions. They definitely respond best to heavier strings, generally medium gauge. Gillian Welch's guitarist David Rawlings plays an old Epiphone acoustic archtop, and you should look at some of their videos to get and idea of what a good flat-picker can do with one of these. jdiggitydog All Access 19 Posted October 28, 2012 Hi, new to the forum (from Victoria, British Columbia, Canada). This is a Black Special (google under that name for details). Gibson created seven different series of Black Specials from the mid-thirties and up through the war years. They were less expensive, limited, dealer specials (literally) of various models including the L30, L37, and L50. Costs were saved on the production of these (and thus the retail price) because of: --the flat back (which contributes to the type of tone you mentioned) --black paint instead of a sunburst (thus allowing for top wood that maybe had a grain irregularity or imperfection and thus saving finishing time) --non-inlayed logo --and by using notched tonebars (for ease of shaping into place) rather than solid, carved tonebars (a significant contributor to the way the instrument resonates) Though this model has aspects to it that will somewhat limit tone and projection (many of the black specials also had smaller-than-normal f-holes), archtops are, of course, designed to cut through other instruments and to generally sound better to listeners a few metres away then to the player. I recommend: --checking to see if your bridge is standing vertical (straight), as some of these tend to lean after a long life --checking to see if the arch flattened out at all (not uncommon for very old instruments)? That can shape the tone, but wouldn't be practical to fix. --having a look inside with a light and a small mirror to see if the tone bars are loose or are still fully adhered. Personally, I think it's a very cool and unique guitar. You will definitely be the only bloke on the block to have one and you may never run into someone else who owns one. They are definitely bad *** in their appearance. I briefly owned a 1937 Black Special #4. It had always been a local guitar, and I was the third owner. It still had the original receipt in the case when I bought it. The original owner died in the 50s, and his widow gave it to owner #2--a boy at the time. It then mostly sat under his bed for 50 years since he never really learned to play. I bought it off him for $1,000 CDN (equal to $1,000 US and about 750 pounds sterling). I moved it along because, while it was in pretty great condition given its age, it wasn't what I was after tone-wise even though I have traditionally liked archtops (I've since bought a new Blues King which is making me quite happy for jazz, blues, folk, and general meandering). I should clarify that what you have may not technically have been called a Black Special when it was sold (although probably). But this is certainly of that family and that is what they came to be called. I'm pretty sure they started with that nomenclature in 1935. Play it in good health and enjoy it. Don't be silly like I was an let it go. It's tres cool and unique. jdiggitydog All Access 19 Posted October 28, 2012 By the way, J45nick is right: 13s are generally preferable for an archtop (usually a huge difference), but I would strongly caution against putting those on your Black Special without checking with a guitar tech who can look inside and tell you if the guitar will bear the tension (the arch and neck, etc.). You'd need to carefully adjust your truss rod at least. Archtops can be fussy things, but they are definitely works of art. BluesKing777 All Access 9.6k Author Posted October 28, 2012 Thanks Nick and JDiggityDog. Very interesting! I have read the whole internet looking for scant info....not a lot there, but the Black Special idea seems right with some other stuff I have seen. Some pages say that Gibson also made a black finish L50 for sale, as well as the Black Specials which were only available to certain dealers..... Oh, I bought it as a 'C. 1935 Gibson L50 Black Finish' from Elderly's. I also bought my '59 LG3 from them, and I can't say enough good things about them! Both guitars bought 'sight unseen', and I swore I was never going to do that again.......but both these guitars are the best ones I have bought! I found the smaller sister L30 black in the guitar museum site - same guitar, except a smaller size really. The museum has all the details, and I do mean all if you are interested: http://orgs.usd.edu/...uitar13567.html I had the guitar checked by my luthier, set up and a Schatten piezo bridge installed (no holes drilled reversible work). All good, he said - great big straight neck! It had 11's on it when I got it and he set it up for new 11's. I will see how stable it is over the next while, and if ok, I will go up to 13's and perhaps tune down 1/2 a step. It does not appear to have been played for a long while, apart from shop tryouts probably, and is now opening up beautifully every time I play it, which I am about to do in a minute! I took some pics on my iPhone, reduced them to fit the forum, and guess what, forum says it won't take that file type! What! A stock JPEG? I''ll make a short video.... Thanks very much again. BluesKing777. P.S. Welcome to the forum, Jdiggitydog and thanks. BluesKing777 All Access 9.6k Author Posted October 29, 2012 Here is a live recording I made of Robert Johnson's "From Four Til Late' playing my 1935 Black Gibson L50. Just recorded it through a Shure SM57 mic. http://soundcloud.co...777/4tillate99b And here is my version of Robert Johnson's "32-20 Blues" recorded at the same session: http://soundcloud.com/bluesking777/32-20no77b BluesKing777. j45nick All Access 12.7k LocationSouth Florida Posted October 29, 2012 On 10/29/2012 at 10:10 AM, BluesKing777 said: Here is a live recording I made of Robert Johnson's "From Four Til Late' playing my 1935 Black Gibson L50. And here is my version of Robert Johnson's "32-20 Blues" recorded at the same session BluesKing777. Great, classic archtop sound, BK. Are you using picks here? If not, you must have some wicked nails. What strings? BluesKing777 All Access 9.6k Author Posted October 29, 2012 On 10/29/2012 at 11:17 AM, j45nick said: Great, classic archtop sound, BK? Are you using picks here? If not, you must have some wicked nails. What strings? Thanks Nick Yeah - I'm in love! No picks and mostly these days I use my thumb and index finger only, but never say never when I need to flick the strings with whatever other fingers we have available! And my index nail is looking like a cat's. And the I think the strings were the ones that came out with the guitar in approx. 1935 - I wanted to record the sounds before it had a setup and stuff. My luthier has since put Daddarios 11's PBs on it and when I asked him why I didn't get my usual 12's or 13's, he said that is the gauge that was on it. BluesKing777. P.S. In all my excitement about this guitar I forgot to mention I got a lovely Gibson case with it! Some of my other Gibsons have come in all kinds of things. L5Larry Members 4.6k LocationSt. Louis, Missouri Posted October 29, 2012 Nice recordings, AND playing, enjoyed it...... but (Nick knows this is coming), You need to put some flatwounds on that beast if you really want the classic archtop tone! BluesKing777 All Access 9.6k Author Posted October 29, 2012 On 10/29/2012 at 1:53 PM, L5Larry said: Nice recordings, AND playing, enjoyed it...... but (Nick knows this is coming), You need to put some flatwounds on that beast if you really want the classic archtop tone! Thanks L5Larry. Your name reminds me that I saw a picture of a black finish L5 about the same vintage while trawling through the web for details about my guitar. I want! I have Chromes flatwounds on my 54 ES125 and they go beautifully with the P90...., but my L50 is set up for acoustic playing with a piezo pickup bridge, so the Chromes won't work too good with the pickup. It was a decision to be made - floating mag pickup wouldn't fit - not enough space (1 inch only ) near the end of the neck and string height. Could have had a reso pickup, I was told. I happy with the sound after the setup and the more I play it, the closer it gets to talking.... BluesKing777. fretplay All Access 1.2k Posted October 31, 2012 On 10/26/2012 at 8:52 PM, BluesKing777 said: http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/images/45U/45U-1445_front.jpg Just got one LIKE the picture, but with pickguard, NOT this one 'cos I can't get my photos to work on the Forum... Too late - I have already bought the farm so to speak - C.1935 Gibson L-50 Black Finish, but while I love it, there is scant information on the Internet about this model. Anything from the Gibson experts, or non-experts??? BluesKing777. I bought a L50 1935 sunbrust last year. It has taken a year for my luthier to get it into playing order but it is now. Wonderful tone and plenty of volume. It is really nice to have a playable guitar of this age, so many of them are collectors pieces fine for owning but no good to play. Can I ask how much you paid for yours Bluskind? BluesKing777 All Access 9.6k Author Posted October 31, 2012 On 10/31/2012 at 2:56 AM, fretplay said: I bought a L50 1935 sunbrust last year. It has taken a year for my luthier to get it into playing order but it is now. Wonderful tone and plenty of volume. It is really nice to have a playable guitar of this age, so many of them are collectors pieces fine for owning but no good to play. Can I ask how much you paid for yours Bluskind? Congrats on the L50! Any soundbites of your beast? I paid way too much for mine probably, probably embarrisingly much for the tough negotiator that I am, but as RetroRod and I have discussed a couple of times, I live in the middle of nowhere down south from Melbourne, Australia and getting it here safely costs almost as much as the guitar, then we get customs and quarantine fees and delays. What I have paid for sight-unseen is the service from what I believe is one of the best guitar shops on the planet (Elderly's) who give a fair estimate of the condition and playability of the guitar and also pack and send it properly! So as Retro says, there will be no selling back to the US at a profit! A One-Way Street he called it. BluesKing777. jdiggitydog All Access 19 Posted October 31, 2012 On 10/29/2012 at 10:10 AM, BluesKing777 said: Here is a live recording I made of Robert Johnson's "From Four Til Late' playing my 1935 Black Gibson L50. Just recorded it through a Shure SM57 mic. http://soundcloud.co...777/4tillate99b And here is my version of Robert Johnson's "32-20 Blues" recorded at the same session: http://soundcloud.com/bluesking777/32-20no77b BluesKing777. Ab fab, BluesKing. Both clips sound great. You're ON it. blindboygrunt All Access 9.7k Posted October 31, 2012 On 10/31/2012 at 2:56 AM, fretplay said: I bought a L50 1935 sunbrust last year. It has taken a year for my luthier to get it into playing order but it is now. hey fretplay , that theres a slow workin luthier . lol , you payin him by the hour ? 😛 nice sounds blues king !! congratulations on the new guitar ol fred All Access 951 LocationNever Sweat Ranch Posted November 1, 2012 BK, once again you've outdone yerself. Kudo's pal. Nice Git as well ! retrorod All Access 4.4k LocationNorth Carolina Posted November 1, 2012 On 10/31/2012 at 8:23 AM, BluesKing777 said: Congrats on the L50! Any soundbites of your beast? I paid way too much for mine probably, probably embarrisingly much for the tough negotiator that I am, but as RetroRod and I have discussed a couple of times, I live in the middle of nowhere down south from Melbourne, Australia and getting it here safely costs almost as much as the guitar, then we get customs and quarantine fees and delays. What I have paid for sight-unseen is the service from what I believe is one of the best guitar shops on the planet (Elderly's) who give a fair estimate of the condition and playability of the guitar and also pack and send it properly! So as Retro says, there will be no selling back to the US at a profit! A One-Way Street he called it. BluesKing777. But it is "all good" BK777, when you get a straight-shot from a straight-up dealer I am glad that another one worked out well! Sounds awesome and great playing by you....Yeah! rhymes wit' BAYOU BluesKing777 All Access 9.6k Author Posted November 1, 2012 Thanks for the nice comments! A couple of other side stories for ya.... Having listened back again, I have noticed a few clunkers but the feel is there (which got the tracks the gig!) and possibly the vocal is a touch loud but pretty happy all round considering I used just one Shure SM57 for guitar/vocals into a preamp then my old trusty iMac g5. I tend to turn the works on and just keep playing and try to forget the machinery is running to avoid 'Red Light Fever' while recording, then load the ones I did on my iPod to have a listen in my lounge chair - away from the dreaded work desk. As for guitar deliveries, well - they would have to be about as stressful as taking your car to a useless mechanic or getting some work done on the house .... I was watching the Fedex tracking at the time for my guitar, then I was jumping between the tracking and my work stuff to keep an eye on it - "It's left Elderly's"; It's at the Fedex facility'; It's at Memphis"; It's on the way to Honolulu" WAHOOOOOO!; It's in Australia in Sydney"; can't be long now - dance around the house and the back yard a few times...; It's at Customs; psssfffftttsssshitttttttttttteeeeee(Y); It's gone to Quarantine - game over for 2 weeks. Heart sinks. They are supposed to notify you by mail with the fee, but I have found out you can ring them over and over and over and make them cross! Anyway I have the guitar now and love it ....I had to get the better half to negotiate with Customs for me to get my guitar released - she has patience I don't possess with officials.... BluesKing777. Archived This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies. Edited April 13 by BluesKing777 Spelling error Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 I have only owned one Gibson archtop which was a 1936 Capital. I did come within a hair though of buying a 1939 L-12. Hindsight being 100 proof, I probably should have just ponied up the admittedly measly $2800. Gibson bult instruments with the Capital moniker for the Jenkins Music Store chain. What was interesting about this guitar is that it sported the X bracing Gibson went with on archtops from 1936 into 1939. So, just wondering if you have had the chance to compare 1930s Gibson archtops with both X and parallel bracing? I found that I actually cottoned to the parallel braced instruments more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted April 13 Author Share Posted April 13 8 hours ago, zombywoof said: I have only owned one Gibson archtop which was a 1936 Capital. I did come within a hair though of buying a 1939 L-12. Hindsight being 100 proof, I probably should have just ponied up the admittedly measly $2800. Gibson bult instruments with the Capital moniker for the Jenkins Music Store chain. What was interesting about this guitar is that it sported the X bracing Gibson went with on archtops from 1936 into 1939. So, just wondering if you have had the chance to compare 1930s Gibson archtops with both X and parallel bracing? I found that I actually cottoned to the parallel braced instruments more. Sorry ZW, I have never played another 30s Gibson archtop.......though I looked long and hard at the Waterloo archtop, a L-00 size, way expensive and rare now....I imagine they would be great like their other guitars.... I went through an archie fad for a while there about 10 years back and have a 1952 Gibson ES125 electric jazzer, fab but needs new strings desperately but I don't really know what it gets, electric or acoustic strings so I have done....nothing. There was a short lived Godin archtop 5th Avenue that was cool but ...left the building years ago (too new for me I suppose but I was going to do this and then do that but didn't!).... Back to the 1935 Black Special #4 of mine - it is exactly what I want! And I ...already have it! BluesKing777. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted April 14 Share Posted April 14 (edited) 16 hours ago, BluesKing777 said: Sorry ZW, I have never played another 30s Gibson archtop.......though I looked long and hard at the Waterloo archtop, a L-00 size, way expensive and rare now....I imagine they would be great like their other guitars.... I went through an archie fad for a while there about 10 years back and have a 1952 Gibson ES125 electric jazzer, fab but needs new strings desperately but I don't really know what it gets, electric or acoustic strings so I have done....nothing. There was a short lived Godin archtop 5th Avenue that was cool but ...left the building years ago (too new for me I suppose but I was going to do this and then do that but didn't!).... Back to the 1935 Black Special #4 of mine - it is exactly what I want! And I ...already have it! BluesKing777. While it may be heresy, I have found I prefer Epiphone f-hole archtops. But I do have a definite thing for round soundhole Gibson archtop. In fact, my Capital went in the trade which landed me the 1920 L3. The model though which continues to intrigue the heck out of me is the L50 particularly the last two round soundhole versions which sported narrower waists. I also would love to get some quality time with the very first L1 flattops some of which were supposedly built with leftover arched backs. If they do exist that would truly be something to behold. I have never even saw the Waterloo archtop you are talking about. I just may have to do some poking around on that one. Edited April 14 by zombywoof Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted April 14 Author Share Posted April 14 Here is a link below to a review of the Waterloo archtop from around 2019.....the specs tell me Bill C used the old Gibson L30 as base with his tweaks of quality and intonation.... There was a Black Special also with the L30 size....would suit sore shoulders better than a 16" body but good luck finding one. Writeup : https://acousticguitar.com/gear-review-waterloo-wl-at/ BluesKing777. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted April 14 Share Posted April 14 37 minutes ago, BluesKing777 said: Here is a link below to a review of the Waterloo archtop from around 2019.....the specs tell me Bill C used the old Gibson L30 as base with his tweaks of quality and intonation.... There was a Black Special also with the L30 size....would suit sore shoulders better than a 16" body but good luck finding one. Writeup : https://acousticguitar.com/gear-review-waterloo-wl-at/ BluesKing777. Didn't the Waterloo archtop project fall apart after Bill's death? Maybe those now calling the shots did not have the same faith in it Bill did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted April 14 Author Share Posted April 14 (edited) 31 minutes ago, zombywoof said: Didn't the Waterloo archtop project fall apart after Bill's death? Maybe those now calling the shots did not have the same faith in it Bill did. They may have just lost interest in the whole nuisance Waterloo thing....! (shop I haunt has given up ordering the non existent stock). General consensus on AGF at time of release of Waterloo archtop was it was about $3K too much retail......get 3 old Gibson L30s and other archtops for the price was the claim. But people said that about the flat top Waterloos.... and I can speak of the quality items they are! I would guess their archtop is intonated, extricated, exterminated and punctuated...with Bill's extra hot sauce...... Played a nice 30s L30, ZW? They also made Black Special #2 (L30 in black)..... https://www.gbase.com/gear/gibson-l-30-1934-black BluesKing777. Edited April 14 by BluesKing777 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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