DuaLeaD Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Perhaps this is a question with no definitive answer but I am in the process of upgrading from a B-52 AT-212 Combo amp to a B-52 AT 100W Head with Marshall 1960 cabs. When does one want/need a full stack instead of a half stack?? I hear the square cab on the bottom will help add more bass and give a fuller tone. I am a lead guitarist by the way and I'm looking for a sweet amp setup to go with my 2007 Les Paul Supreme. Money is not the issue here. ****Also, can someone please explain why the ohm settings on the amp matter? I notice some have more choices and people have cited this as a factor for buying particular models of amps in their reviews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichCI Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 It really depends on the size rooms you're playing and, to a lesser extent, the style of music. For hard rock and heavy metal, certainly you can get away with playing louder as long as the venue is known for that sort of thing. Personally, I think that unless you're playing pretty large rooms (like theaters), anything more than a half stack is overkill and even a half stack is too much for a lot of clubs. The trend these days is to use lower powered amps (20-50w) and let the PA handle the house which allows the sound engineer to get a good mix without having to compete with a blaring loud guitar amp. Wattage is an even bigger factor and a 100w tube guitar amp is a lot of power. My Mesa is 100w and it's ridiculous for what I'm doing; I never take the volume knob past 9 o'clock which is like driving a Ferrari in first gear to buy groceries. If I decide to replace that amp, it will be with something no more than 50w and probably less. There's not much point in a tube power section if you're not pushing it a bit and 100w is really loud before it starts breaking up. Personally, I'm at a point where I don't want to lug around big cabinets and prefer my Mesa 2x12 3/4 open back cab which gives me a nice, full sound that also comes out the back so the drummer can hear me as well. Worth noting is that while we're a rock band, we don't play very loud to begin with; the places we'll be playing are mostly local bars and they don't want you blowing the roofs off of their establishments - they want to sell drinks. But, if you're playing 2000-3000 seat theaters and have roadies to carry all that stuff for you, have at it and go nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Plains Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 I don't think anybody "needs" both cabs. I have both cabs A & B, just because I've always wanted a full stack. I'm not in a band, I don't gig, so clearly I don't need a stack. Yes, cab B will give you more bottom end. Some guitarist just use cab B, depends on the sound your after. Not sure if he still does, but one of Pearl Jam's guitarists did for a while- a Marshall head and cab B. A couple of the guys I work with have bands and their guitarists don't have full stack. One guy has a DSL 50 and 1960 A, the other has an Ibanez somethingerother. Ohms - go to the Marshall amp forum. You could damage your head if not set up properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnjpekar Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 how soon you get tired of lugging around that second bottom will dictate more than not if you will want to bring it. I run a stereo rig, and now run both heads thru one 4x12. if you gig a lot that second cab will get heavy real fast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergod Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 i dont like marshall 1960 cabs... have owned them in the past and never liked them... i have heard the old ones were very good but the new ones are crap (celestion speakers arent what they used to)... lots of good sounding cabs in that price range and even cheaper. anyway, why would you need a full stack? are you touring with deep purple or something? where do you intend to use it and for what? A nice 2x12 open back should fit for any use, and a 30W tube head or 2x12 amp is way more power than you will ever need... you know if you played big arenas: a)you wouldnt be asking this and here, and... you could do with a 2x12 cab and a 30/50 watt head and a mic in front of it (i played for 15.000 people once, used a full stack that i didnt get to crank all the way up, and had a mic in front of it). The ohm settings on the amp? you have to match that with the cab / cabs you intend to use with the head... you cannot run 2 8 ohm cabs in series (=16ohm) through a 4 ohm head, you could blew it. If you need more info on this you can contact me privately or ask here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibson CS Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Remember... A 100w amp ISNT twice as loud as a 50w amp. Its only a bit louder. I like the 50w because it breaks up sooner to the "Cream" that I love so much. Also, do you want to go deaf? Most rock stars who stack their amps agree. Because the speakers are at and above ear level youre going to punish your ear drums. To the point of permanent damage. I would never stack my amps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuaLeaD Posted March 31, 2008 Author Share Posted March 31, 2008 MY ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS/ANSWERS: Question 1) Remember...A 100w amp ISNT twice as loud as a 50w amp. Its only a bit louder. I like the 50w because it breaks up sooner to the "Cream" that I love so much. There's not much point in a tube power section if you're not pushing it a bit and 100w is really loud before it starts breaking up. What do you guys mean by "breaking up"? The reason I went to tube amps was because I heard the harder you push them' date=' the better they sound. My 100W B-52 AT-212 Tube [i']starts[/i] sounding great past 4. Is that what you guys meant? _____________________________________________________ Question 2) Is there any time when you would choose that powerhouse amp system over a house PA system? I understand amps were made as powerful as possible back in the day because the PAs sucked. That way you could still push your sound out if you had to. _____________________________________________________ Venue: Also, to answer other posters, I would be playing to a crowd of 1000-1100 max in a large ballroom with a stage. Though the place does have a decent PA and I bought a Shure SM-57 mic with stand and high-end cabling if I need it. FYI: I'm not a guy that likes to shatter his or others' ear drums. I do not need my amps at 11. I'm mainly buying this for spatial/tonal quality and better projection (seeing as my AT-212 sits low to the floor). My main style of music will be classic rock, arena rock, borderline metal, melodic rock...VERY lead intensive though occasionally the tremelo metal rhythm guitar (Ex: "Crazy Train"). The other reason is more along the lines of Tim A (just being seen with a shimmering Alpine White Les Paul in front of a full stack of Marshalls playing some classic rock guitar solo) it just has a cool factor to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibson CS Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 What I meant was this... My Orange amp is 50w. There is a volume level that if I go past it, the tubes really make the speakers scream. But its not mud. Its a low deep growl. Its the point to where if I go much further itll become too loud for my ears to handle ...comfortably anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergod Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 Hi DuaLeaD, i really think you should consider a smaller amp, maybe a 30W orange, vox, fender, or something like that, vox and fender have very good clean sound that you can shape with stomps, oranges give you very good leads (at least the ones i've tried). I dont think you will find 100 tube watts useful, as deepblue said, its better to have an amp that will break up sooner, if you use a 100W at 8/9 o clock then you most surely wont get a better sound than that of a solid state amp. While i believe most of us guitar players have at some point wanted a full stack (yes, it is cool) i think many of us have grown out of it, and that responds to various factors: a) having to move it around for rehearsals and gigs having to wear earplugs OR sacrifice tone c) having to stand your bandmates wining d) not being able to play at lower volumes at home without an atenuator e) when you have a small gig (with a small stage), then you need to go find an amp that works well with all your other equipment. f) you are going to end up with a mic to your cab anyway, it doesnt matter if it is a 4x12 or 2, or a small combo. ...the list goes on... The ones that still have them full stacks NEED TO GROW UP! hehehe (it is a joke, dont start sending private threatening messages!)... seriously, the ones that still have and use them are mainly players who: a) have staff to carry it around and set it up for them need that kind of power and really use it c) have other smaller amps so they can play at home without disturbing the entire state. d) dont gig much or at all so they dont have to move it around Back in the day PA really sucked and you would rely only on your amp, now you have really fancy mixing consoles with fx and crystal clear preamps, and very good mics, so the only thing you need is to find your tone and let the mixing enginer do his work. That said, you can get a nice 30W head and a 4x12 or even a 2x12 cab and look cool onstage. I believe when people see a player with a full stack on stage they dont even notice how he plays... they are already dazled by the setup he is using and that's all they will notice (remember common people attending a show ussualy know nothing about tone). I used to play with a full stack and at the endo of the show people would say (other guitar players included) "wow, thats a really nice rig you have... how much did you pay?"... at the time i usually had 5 guitars onstage, and lots of pedals and a rack full of toys. NOBDY ?TALKED ABOUT MY PLAYING. When i got tired of all that stuff and started trying to use only the necesary stuff while getting a better tone, people started complementing me for how i played, and other guitar players started saying "wow, i cant believe i just spent 3K in a full stack and i dont sound as good as you". In fact, the guy i sold my stack to, ended up buying a 2x12 from me and using a 80W head with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 Other guys may see it differently than me but IMO if you are getting a amp with more than 50w or with two cabs instead of one that is more for you ego than anything else and you are getting way more amp than you will ever need. In terms of volume, I know a guy who has played arenas with nothing more than a little Sans Amp paradriver and ran that into the PA. In the studio the tech is going to take a mic and piont it at just ONE speaker. So all those other speakers are usless. There going to point the mic at just one speaker and this is how almost all rigs are recorded. Also make sure you read up on ohm's. Go to sweetwater and read the buying guides. If you are not paying attention to this factor you will fry the amp and/or speaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coltom Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 I use two Hiwatt full stacks in my basement to practice scales - do you think that's bad? Okay, I'm kidding. On a more serious note, I am playing with only half a deck. Thank you very much - tip your servers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuaLeaD Posted April 1, 2008 Author Share Posted April 1, 2008 Well, I would probably have to agree with all that has been said here. PAs have come a LONG way since the early days. If you go with the "small amp mic-ed into the PA" route, isn't that putting a great deal of faith into the PA system and sound guy(s) operating it? I suppose its much better in larger venues vs "hole in the wall" bar venues.... Like I said, the biggest crowd I would most likely play to is a gig this fall in front of 1000-1100 people in a large ballroom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichCI Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 Ideally, you should be putting faith in the PA as you can't really adjust your volume to that of the PA from the stage unless you're running out into the house to check levels (not unheard of if you're in a bar band and running your own sound). I think worth mentioning here is that you don't want to go to the other extreme either. After all, I think we're talking about rock and roll and you should have enough power to get a decent amount of volume on the stage for effect if nothing else. Sure, monitors make up for a lot but sometimes all you get is a vocal mix and then you have to rely on your amp to be loud enough to compete with the drummer. The happy medium is that your amp is loud enough for impact, but not so powerful that you have to blast the piss out of it to get a tone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joelettinger Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 A Sennheiser 609 or 906 with a good sound man will make any rig amazing through a PA system. With this in mind there is really not much need at all for a full stack. good tone goes beyond just the guitar and amp setup. ultimately it goes through the PA so why not invest in a mic setup that will make you shine anywhere. just my thoughts lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Plains Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 Yeah, I can see ego being a factor...but it isn't for me. I'm not a "my amp is bigger than your amp" kinda guy. I've always wanted a stack, I had the extra money, so I went for it. I agree with everybody that a full Marshall stack really isn't needed nowadays...loading/unloading it all the time would be a pain; but, if you're playing live venues, and want to make a visual statement, then it's the only way to go. Sorry for bringing Slash into this, but I'm only using him as an example. Could any of you picture Slash on stage playing a LP Standard through a 2 x 12" Fender? DuaLeaD, if you really want a stack, then go for it, I say (mind you I'm a complete stranger). As long as you're alright with hauling it back and forth. Amps are like guitars, you have to find the right one for you. If the right amp for you is a stack, how could you settle for anything less? This happened with me. I was looking at 'normal' sized amps, some sounded incredible and were much cheaper than my Marshall...but what it really boiled down to was I didn't want any of those. I wanted a Marshall stack and I'm glad I bought it. This isn't a reason to buy one, but my friends come over just so I can demo it for them...they stand right in front of it and I crank the volume. It's hilarious! One guy said it's like sticking your head in the Rockford Fosgate van. You wouldn't get that with any other amp. Truthfully, some of the other suggestions for an amp would suit you just fine. Again, PA systems are much better nowadays. As for your original question - half stack or full stack? You could always buy the half stack and if you need more, then buy cab B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibson CS Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 Alot of those stacks seen in concerts are just for show. They arent even switched on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergod Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 Yeah' date=' I can see ego being a factor...but it isn't for me. I'm not a "my amp is bigger than your amp" kinda guy. [/quote'] looking at the full stack you have im guessing you are more the "my amp is bigger than YOU" kinda guy!;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergod Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Alot of those stacks seen in concerts are just for show.They arent even switched on. yeah its a shame... some of them doesnt even have speakers inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichCI Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 No shame in that. Ask Pete Townshend what he thinks about the idea - if he can hear you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergod Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 i think it is a shame bacause it makes young guitar players (or any other non profesional player that have no idea about it) think that to sound like that, they need a wall of full stacks, and steel ears. Not so much off topic, have any of you seen the adds for the EVH amps? you can se a wall of black/white cabinets behind him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FennRx Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 a good 30 or 40 watt combo is usally more amp than most of us will ever need. as others have said, the PAs are good today and so even in a bigger venue, a small amp works well if mic'd properly. Having a 100w Marshall or Mesa is freakin' sweet, but unless you're playing a big arena or outdoor amplitheater, be prepared to never turn it all the way up (unless you have an attenuator of course). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuaLeaD Posted April 2, 2008 Author Share Posted April 2, 2008 What is this attenuator you speak of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FennRx Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 thd hotplate or marshall powerbrake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergod Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 gibson makes one too but (the power stealth power attenuator) i havent tried it yet, and dont know of anyone who owns one, at $299 i would like to try one. http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Gibson-Power-Stealth-Power-Attenuator?sku=481181 does anyone in the forum own or have used one? here it is EDIT: hell i just found out it is the THD hotplate but they make it for gibson too... wonder why the one with the gibson logo is cheaper... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FennRx Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 i have not read anything about that one. but everyone on the other forum seems to swear by the Hotplate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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