StarBucks - Now I'm a fan!

[zigzag]

milod <even wider grin>

 

There is just too much in your last two posts to address. All I can say is that I believe that the gun lobby is just too powerful to allow private gun ownership to disappear, and even though there may be some real international movement to affect gun ownership, it appears to me that that effect has not become apparent in the US, in fact, quite the opposite. I believe that your stance on this issue reflects a certain degree of paranoia.

 

I actually like what the poster from Canada said about strapping on a gun seeming a bit abnormal, but hey, I don't live in the untamed west. I know that in the urban areas, people are tired of gang warfare and shootings in their neighborhoods. I believe in a person's right to defend himself, but I also believe there's just too many damned guns out there.

 

 

Hey! I'm betting the Gibson people are glad we got diverted away from Gibson quality bashing!

[zigzag]

Just an additional thought:

 

Nobody would buy guitars except as art objects if all humans became deaf.

 

m

 

Guitars don't make people deaf... amplifiers make people deaf!

[milod]

Mac...

 

I think your Oz analysis is pretty typical for some acquaintances of mine there.

 

To but perfectly blunt, I think the folks who put the second amendment into the U.S. constitution had a lot of things in mind for it having to do with the recent history and philosophy of folks in that region at that given time.

 

In one sense, it's to allow each "man" the same degree of divine "rights" as a king. That means a right to arms, to movement, to speak his own mind and to come to his own political and religious conclusions.

 

In short, it wasn't as specific in some ways as both pro and con arguments might consider in today's world.

 

Aside from various wars and revolutions affecting the Americans of the time in what we call the "13 colonies," there were some very important cultural things going on.

 

Call it the "age of reason," or call it "the enlightenment." Among Anglophones, after the English Civil War there was a return to monarchy, but that didn't work, so they found another monarch less insistent on autocracy. Add a bunch of other stuff going on, like the creation of the Royal Society. A number of secular organizations promoting "we are all on the level as men regardless of position in society" evolved, such as the Freemasons.

 

This perception was stated in the U.S. "declaration of independence" that rather than monarchs reigning with divine right, each man is endowed by his creator - whatever you think that might be - with the same rights. The Americans signing that declaration were only taking what such as Edmund Burke was saying in Parliament and his writings that there is a dialectic between liberty and government and that both have their place. The founders of a separate "America" felt much the same way, hence rather little change in the legal system or even system of government.

 

As an historical note, while the Americans were pondering a constitution to run a single nation and to declare various rights and responsibilities, the Brits were reacting to some nasty stuff in France. The pendulum in England would swing toward the "government" side. I can hit you with some rather interesting examples from the 1790s through 1813 if you'd like at some point backchannel.

 

In short, the Americans at the time of the constitution were still thinking more or less like Burke rather than Fox. The mentality was more toward individual rights than than of government. In England there was something of a reversal toward government that led in ways to the so-called "War of 1812."

 

In Oz and Canada social and political institutions and government followed the English rather than American example and philosophy regardless that it had been rather strongly held in England in, let's say 1770-1790.

 

Ziggie ... well, I don't think it's paranoia. I've seen so much erosion of individual rights not only in my lifetime, but since roughly 1870, that I'm a bit cynical. Cynicism is not the same as paranoia. <grin>

 

m

[zigzag]

milod,

 

As sharp as the writers of our constitution and Bill of Rights were, it sure is a shame that we pay people to enact laws. It might be better to pay them not to.

[NeoConMan]

I avoided posting here to see how this thread would develop....

Have to say I'm surprised it's been so well-mannered.

Hats off to Cruzn, Milo.

 

 

 

How many concealed carriers do so to protect the constitution anyway? My guess is zero.

Here's one. The rest of you feel free to count off.

After decades of safe carry (oblivious to all around me) and never displaying a weapon to anybody' date='

I decided to go the next step - I became a federally licensed gun dealer.

 

Anybody still wanna talk about a gun show "loop-hole" now?

Complete and utter horse-sh!t created by gun control groups in cahoots with the media.

 

Same as the mysterious "assault weapon" and other fairy tales like Roswell aliens and Bigfoot.

 

Of course, it's already been mentioned how those outside the USA making grandstanding statements on

a matter they have few clues about usually leads down dead-end blind alleys.

I've met many foreigners from all points of the globe (even Canadians) on jobs, at gun show, and even

inside gun stores here in the USA because they were fascinated by the ability to simply "buy a gun"...

 

 

 

 

I find that' date=' almost without exception, the people who go around talking about guns and about how they need to have their guns around in case there's some imaginary bad guy around the corner - most of those people have some kind of issue that makes them want to show how tough they are. [/quote']

I can assure you that if we ever cross paths, you'll have no clue whatsoever if I'm armed.

Only one way to find out, and thank God it hasn't happened to me yet in 27 years of carry.

 

 

 

 

What happened to personal responsibility or is it every man for himself and damn the rest?

In what manner would you cast a shadow across freedom' date=' liberty, and personal accountability?

I really don't have a problem with "every man for himself" considering the alternative.

 

If I'm not for myself, who will I rely on to see to my best interests?

 

Government?

Police?

Legislators?

Neighbors?

 

Maybe I'm missing the point of your question...

 

 

 

 

 

Illinois State Police's website...with their suggestions on what to do if you might be raped or sexually assaulted.

http://www.isp.state.il.us/crime/saconfronted.cfm

that's right' date=' try to vomit on your attacker. or USE YOUR IMAGINATION.[/quote']

Perfect.

And anybody out there with a mother should think twice about such foolishness.

Three times if you're married - you're RESPONSIBLE for her safety.

A hundred times if you have a daughter.

 

 

 

 

NRA propaganda. There are fewer guns in Britain .....

And citizens are unable to protect themselves.

Look a little deeper into that' date=' considering you don't live there.

 

How many prosecutions have there been of Brits who shot violent intruders in their home?

Yes, the bad guy gets shot and the [b']victim goes to prison[/b].

 

Their recommendation was that if all else fails, flee from your own home and run for help....

 

 

And the problem with the NRA propaganda?

They KNOW everybody will be looking for a way to pick their statistics apart, so they remain very conservative.

I find it rare that anybody is successful in challenging them on any sort of numbers game.

That's what infuriates the gun control crowd, and forces them to the media extremes they employ as a tactic.

 

 

 

 

you might not be prepared to use that gun you've got as you thought you were

So' date=' you don't own a gun, don't use them, and probably don't know anybody who does.

Yet you'll make such blanket assumptions about nearly 100 million Americans?

I would dare to say there are a few who know what they are doing with their guns, either through formal

training, military experience, or simply learning/practicing and educating themselves....

 

Oh, and if you'll take Skynyrd's songs so literally, go back and read the lyrics to everything they wrote.

I'm gonna bet you'd be less likely to act out the actions described in some of their other songs.

 

 

 

 

Handguns are only good for one thing' date=' and it's not a good thing. You can't hunt with a handgun and the last thing I would ever want to happen is one of my loved ones hit and injured or killed from crossfire between two people who decided to speak in bullets instead of words.[/quote']

Foolish, foolish statements.

How do you feel about cars?

More people in the USA are killed by cars.

I bet the number is skewed even further in Canada.

 

And my family has to share the road with those killers.

For all I know, YOU may be one of them.

It might have been you who ran over my daughter's cat.

If I shot your cat, you'd want me in jail, eh?

 

 

 

 

Are you saying you would shoot someone for punching you?

I will stop an assault by any means required.

I'm 44' date=' and I've yet to need a gun to do it. I'm happy about that.

Escalation never occurred where I had to resort to a gun, though I've been in plenty of scrapes.

CWNess decribed his situation to me a few weeks ago - we had this very discussion then.

 

 

 

 

But the fools who want to parade around with a gun strapped to their waist are just idiotic grandstanders.

I choose not to carry a weapon in plain view, but I find your statement disingenuous and presumptuous.

What does somebody in California (with the idiotic laws in that state) know about the other 49 states?

 

I live right next door in Arizona, and I deal with Californians coming to the state everyday thinking it's

Dodge City over here. Funny to see how pissed they get that I can't sell them a gun in MY state because of

the laws in YOUR state. I tell 'em "Hey, it's YOUR laws that I have to follow if you show a California ID"...

 

When I got my federal license, you should have seen the stack of sh!t California sent to me.

They were gonna dictate how I ran by business in another state - in case I sold something to one of yours.

I sent them a nice letter telling them to lose my address, my phone number, and to pound sand in their ***.

I returned ALL their paperwork so they could recycle it, and assured them I would NEVER conduct business there.

 

Oh, by the way.... I was born in California, so I got a dog in the fight.

 

 

 

 

 

I acquired those firearms before gun registration laws were passed.

I did not realize there was a requirement for individual gun registration in your state. News to me.

 

 

I have to believe that hand gun laws are enacted in good faith to protect innocent people.

IT IS NOT THE ROLE OF THE GOVERNMENT TO PROTECT YOU.

Part of liberty is the responsibility that accompanies it. YOU are the first line of defense for your family/property.

 

 

If current laws were enforced' date=' there are several mass murders like the Va Tech shootings and the Ronald Reagan shooting that may have been prevented. [/quote']

Wrong. Those guns were purchased legally.

 

 

I believe the Brady Bill was passed by a Republican congress.

Wrong again. Brady bill was before the 1994 mid-term elections - timed that way by design.

It was a huge factor (along with Hillary Care) in getting the Dems thrown out of the majority

for the first time in what' date=' 5 decades?

 

 

The fact is that there are far too many people killed in this country by handguns.

I agree. You want to control guns? Control the criminals using them.

 

 

I don't think the solution is to arm every citizen or disarm every citizen. All I know is that it is a tragedy' date=' and if something can be done to change it, that needs to happen[/quote']

See above. Lock up the people who steal guns, and the people who use them in crimes.

 

 

I also find it humorous that all the gun toting right wingers who thought that Obama was going to take away their guns are finding that just the opposite is happening under his administration.

The Obama Administration has chosen to leave the subject alone and hide away from the challenge.

They have plans in store for this nation....

I could fill four pages of this thread with dozens of quotes from Dem lawmakers on why they avoid the subject.

 

 

One big problem is gun sellers who don't adhere to the current laws.

There are likely very few criminals who have acquired firearms legally.

As a gun dealer myself, I challenge you to name ONE gun seller.

Or better yet, call the ATF and report him.

Trust me, the IRS ain't got nothing on the BATFE for closing your business and ruining your life.

 

And the criminals STEAL the guns.

No law-abiding citizen is selling them to them, very rare even in private transactions requiring no paperwork.

[NeoConMan]

Now' date=' what really got me into this thread was this little bit here, [b']"In California, where it's legal to carry a gun openly without a license in most places as long as it's unloaded"[/b]

Carry a gun in the open in the urban areas of California and you WILL go to jail - for something, anything.

Unloaded, whatever....

 

Your state simply will no longer tolerate it.

 

 

 

Why must common citizens own semiauto/auto weapons?

explain to me why a person needs an (more or less) assault weapon.

Do you understand what a semi-auto is? Especially compared to an "auto" that was banned in 1933?

And the term assault weapon describes what, exactly?

 

I'm not picking on you, I'm asking how you formed your opinions on something that many do not understand.

Furthermore, I have yet to see a clear example of an assault weapon that made ANY sense.

 

I could just as easily call a Les Paul an assault guitar because it has a glued-in neck.

 

:-s/

[NeoConMan]

The people showing up at "Town Halls" last summer ...

You've never been to a city council or county commissioner's meeting with me.

 

 

Never carried a gun into one' date=' but I was raising hell at those meetings twenty years ago!

WAY before it became fashionable last summer....

 

 

Quit being reasonable' date=' there's no place for that in talks about guns.[/quote']

How do you justify owning a guitar?

Or even a car?

A pet?

 

Are ANY of these luxuries a right granted to you by the Constitution?

 

Nope.

 

And since I'm in the Gun Business, there's plenty of sense involved.

I want to make a profit, don't want to go to jail, and don't want anybody killed unless they deserve it.

 

Criminals?

Go ahead and tell me that none of them deserve it....

 

 

 

Oh, and the 2nd Amendment guarantees my right.

Are there any other areas of the Constitution you would like to eliminate to suit your tastes?

Didn't think so...

 

[milod]

AWAY from politics here, guys...

 

Honestly, this thread has gotten me to think very strongly about musical cultures. <grin>

 

I erased my first shot at it. I hope this is better.

 

I find it extremely interesting how the U.S. musical culture in ways - along with its political culture we've been discussing - owes so much to England, Scotland and Northern Ireland prior to 1780 or so.

 

A case might be made, too - not a very prideful one - that such culture also allowed maintaining slavery into the middle 19th Century and then a parallel subculture of Americans of African and American slavery heritage.

 

That latter came even during a truly huge "industrial revolution" in the U.S. in an explosion of communications and mass production that eventually gave us ... Gibson guitars. Player pianos. Phonographs. Sheet music. Movies.

 

The very "thing" that maintained the cultural imperative of freedom of religion and speech and the concept that such rights are inherent in all men also ... fell flat when it came to slavery, then was reborn as freed slaves and their offspring reflected that same grasping to claim those full rights as equals.

 

As Burke noted, there is that dialectic between government and liberty.

 

There also is in the U.S. an odd circumstance of historic music traditions being separated from their places of origin and placed literally next door to very different traditions. Hence American Blues, country, swing, rock, bluegrass, pop...

 

Listen to Earl Monroe do "Muleskinner Blues" with the modal Brit tradition blended with the slides of Africa.

 

I'm told there are somewhat similar reflections from South America to Iberia and back again, but I doubt it's such an influence on "world music" as we saw in the 1960s of American music adopted and reflected back from the U.K.

[NeoConMan]

Cruz' date='

That treaty is a response to guns illegally flooding into Mexico. Good old Hillary is trying to stop it. The second amendment protects your right to shoot any UN troops planning to storm your fortress to disarm you, but unfortunately, the second amendment didn't protect David Koresh.[/quote']

The Mexico gun thing is another crock of sh!t.

Look at a map of Mexico.

 

Two huge coastlines, and a porous border with Central America.

If you were there and wanted guns brought in, would you go to the USA and pay top dollar for them?

The biggest number they could come up with was 17% of seized guns were from the USA - NOT 90%.

 

Hillary and the UN were using bogus numbers, as was the Mexican government.

All to get more aid money pouring into the country to be siphoned off and wasted by the millionaires there.

 

(Trivia - did you know there are more millionaires in Mexico than Switzerland?)

 

Also, a huge number of American made guns turning up in raids are guns "lost" by the Federales.

Those guys desert left and right, taking all the guns they can when they do.

 

 

 

David Koresh was an idiot, and had violated numerous gun laws among hundreds of other laws.

Child rape, anybody?

The ATF, under the orders of Janet Reno and current AG Eric Holder told them to hit hard, so they did.

 

They could have arrested Koresh any morning he was jogging or any day he drove into Waco.

They wanted to make a statement, and Ruby Ridge/Randy Weaver's family wasn't enough for them yet.

 

Sorry Milo, flirting with disaster using political references, but just addressing contradictory statements...

 

[zigzag]

I avoided posting here to see how this thread would develop....

Have to say I'm surprised it's been so well-mannered.

Hats off to Cruzn' date=' Milo.

 

 

 

How many prosecutions have there been of Brits who shot violent intruders in their home?

Yes, the bad guy gets shot and the victim goes to prison.

 

Their recommendation was that if all else fails, flee from your own home and run for help....

 

And the problem with the NRA propaganda?

They KNOW everybody will be looking for a way to pick their statistics apart, so they remain very conservative.

 

I find it rare that anybody is successful in challenging them on any sort of numbers game.

That's what infuriates the gun control crowd, and forces them to the media extremes they employ as a ta

 

I did not realize there was a requirement for individual gun registration in your state. News to me.

 

IT IS NOT THE ROLE OF THE GOVERNMENT TO PROTECT YOU.

Part of liberty is the responsibility that accompanies it. YOU are the first line of defense for your family/property

 

Wong. Those guns were purchased legally

 

 

Wrong again. Brady bill was before the 1994 mid-term elections - timed that way by design.

It was a huge factor (along with Hillary Care) in getting the Dems thrown out of the majority

for the first time in what, 5 decades

 

 

The Obama Administration has chosen to leave the subject alone and hide away from the challenge.

They have plans in store for this nation....

I could fill four pages of this thread with dozens of quotes from Dem lawmakers on why they avoid the subject.

 

 

Whew, here goes...

 

I don't have the numbers, but I'm betting they would show that Americans have greater access to guns than any other "civilized" nation. I'm betting that the numbers will also show that we have by far the greatest number of crimes committed with hand guns and the greatest number of people killed with hand guns, per capita. I'm pretty sure those are facts.

 

Like I said, I don't know the laws about registering guns. I'm pretty sure that guns purchased in my state are required to be registered. I don't believe that guns that I own before gun registration laws were passed are required to be registered.

 

My recollection must be wrong, but I thought that the muderer involved in the Va Tech killings was permitted to buy guns by gun dealers before complete background checks were made on him. If those checks had been done, he would not have been legally eligible to get them.

 

It may not be the government's role to protect me, but I always thought that the government workers in the police force had the responsibilty to preserve and protect. I never argued against the right of a person to protect himself or his family.

 

The Brady Bill may have been passed during a democratic president and congress, but I believe it received almost unanimous support from republicans. If that is not true, show me the numbers. Brady, himself, also a republican, was for it.

 

It is true that democrats would like to restrict access to hand guns and assault weapons. I don't know of any democrats that don't support the right to bear arms or allow hunters and recreational shooters to keep their weapons. I believe attempts at gun control are to keep weapons out of the hands of those who would commit crimes. I'm thinking that most law enforcement people would support their efforts.

 

I also believe that Obama doesn't have the spine to take on the gun lobby and I also believe that he has enough political savy to leave it alone. Those of you who believe you're gonna lose your guns will have to wait for that shootout, because I don't think it's gonna happen any time soon.

 

I'm also thinking that the guy that W shot is wishing they'd done an idiot background check on him before they let him loose with a gun. And no, I don't miss him yet! LOL

[FennRx]

my state allows open carry and i am damn glad for it. not because i walk around with a hand cannon, but because if my shirt rides up or the wind blows my coat open, i'm not going to jail. as for the OC movement in CA, you guys do realize that this wouldnt happen if CA would actually issue concealed carry licenses right? all the politicians who pass these laws either have the CC permits (because their rich and powerful) or they have armed body guards. why are they more important than you?

[NeoConMan]

greatest number of people killed with hand guns' date=' per capita. I'm pretty sure those are facts.[/quote']

Thats kinda like saying I won't get bitten by a shark while swimming in Arizona or injured by a snowball in Florida.

We have over 100 million handguns in the USA.

By the way, the "assault weapons" are usually included in the numbers on rifles - used in 2% of gun murders.

Care to guess how many murders are commited with no gun at all?

Well over half.

 

 

Like I said' date=' I don't know the laws about registering guns. I'm pretty sure that guns purchased in my state are required to be registered.[/quote']

South Carolina, right?

As far as I know, you'll fill out a Form 4473 for the BATFE, and then the dealer will call the NICS line.

If approved, you walk out.

They have no idea what you bought, except that it's a handgun, long gun, or "other".

No serial number is given to them, not even the manufacturer's name.

The 4473 is kept on record by the dealer, the BATFE never sees it unless they do an audit of dealer records.

 

The best way to have a gun sale traced back to you is to use a credit or bank debit card.

No privacy there if you wind up in court....

 

 

My recollection must be wrong' date=' but I thought that the muderer involved in the Va Tech killings was permitted to buy guns by gun dealers before complete background checks were made on him. If those checks had been done, he would not have been legally eligible to get them.[/quote']

Nope. He was legal.

The problem was in the mental health biz, nobody reported him though he was seen by shrinks.

 

 

I always thought that the government workers in the police force had the responsibilty to preserve and protect.

I never argued against the right of a person to protect himself or his family.

When seconds count' date=' the police are only twenty minutes away.

Cops are janitors.

They clean up the mess and fill out the paperwork after the victims are victimized and criminals are long gone.

 

 

The Brady Bill may have been passed during a democratic president and congress' date=' but I believe it received almost unanimous support from republicans. If that is not true, show me the numbers. Brady, himself, also a republican, was for it.[/quote']

Brady had no fxcking clue what was going on for MONTHS after he was shot.

I think you'll find his wife Sarah was the prime mover in that effort.

 

 

It is true that democrats would like to restrict access to hand guns and assault weapons. I don't know of any democrats that don't support the right to bear arms or allow hunters and recreational shooters to keep their weapons.

Max Baucus of Montana was one of the few.

 

 

I believe attempts at gun control are to keep weapons out of the hands of those who would commit crimes. I'm thinking that most law enforcement people would support their efforts.

Wrong and wrong.

I've been in the middle of this for 30 years' date=' trust me on this one.

 

 

I also believe that Obama doesn't have the spine to take on the gun lobby and I also believe that he has enough political savy to leave it alone. Those of you who believe you're gonna lose your guns will have to wait for that shootout' date=' because I don't think it's gonna happen any time soon.[/quote']

I addressed this in a previous post.

They have other plans for the nation, bigger fish to fry.

As it is, gun sales surged in 2008, broke all records in 2009, and are only now slowing due to the economy.

And the price of ammo is astronomical now due to pressures too extensive to cover here.

China is involved, as are traded commodities and again, our economy.

 

I cut back on my shooting dramatically due to the cost of ammo, so now I'm less proficient and a poorer shot.

That should make the gun-banners happy, knowing I don't have the same confidence to hit my target now...

 

:D/ [cool]

[FirstMeasure]

Carry a gun in the open in the urban areas of California and you WILL go to jail - for something' date=' anything.

Unloaded, whatever....

 

Your state simply will no longer tolerate it.

 

[cool']/

 

That's what I'm sayin'. But even in Rural areas, any gun must be registered. When I got my first .22 it had to be registered. I wonder why Fox News would report, "In California, where it's legal to carry a gun openly without a license in most places as long as it's unloaded, growing numbers of armed people have been turning up at Starbucks....". Unless they misspoke and were referring to CCW not a gun license.

 

Anyway, not that important.

[NeoConMan]

Yeah, not sure/dunno.

 

Getting a CCW is always mentioned in California, since it's legal, but it's almost impossible there.

You'll never get approved if you're just a Joe Sixpack ordinary guy.

 

Some of your legislators have them though...

[NeoConMan]

As sharp as the writers of our constitution and Bill of Rights were' date=' it sure is a shame that we pay people to enact laws. It might be better to pay them not to.[/quote']

Doh!

 

I forgot to address this one earlier!

 

We have 22,000 gun laws on the books in the USA.

Think there's some overlap and contradiction there?

 

I offer that I could eliminate 21,978 of them.

Seriously.

 

I bet I could sit down with a couple of Constitutional scholars and a couple of lawyers and whittle that number

down to only 22 laws, and cover EVERY possibility and eventuality, no matter how arcane or remote.

 

 

I've said for over ten years that if I'm ever elected to Congress, I'm gonna start taking laws OFF the books.

 

Great post Zig.

 

[cool]

[retrosurfer1959]

Interesting points and a lot of different points of view - personally I believe there are two types of people in the world gun owners and potential victims and I suck at being a victim

[NeoConMan]

Yep.

And I still ain't buying anything at Starbucks!

 

Not a coffee drinker, so that's an easy one....

 

 

 

RS, a point of pride is that I have always had more guns than guitars.

I think about that little guitar collection you have, and your law-enforcement/other past, and wonder.....

 

:D

[milod]

As a history nut, I find fascinating similarities between arguments today and arguments well over a century ago when "gun control" meant essentially control of the "criminal classes" which largely meant Irish and Black in the U.S. and in the U.K., those in labor unions.

 

Oddly one might think those representing urban minorities or unionized workers would most favor traditional cultural rights for all - but such, as far as I can see, has not been the case in Anglophone nations. In fact, it seems in Cali that the reverse is true - those representing minorities with a history of being oppressed go out for cash handouts from government, but not freedoms to exercise individual responsibility.

 

(BTW, the only "old time blues guys" I've met seemed rather obviously in favor of personal defense hardware.)

 

"Republican" and "Democrat" in the U.S. may make some difference when there is wheeling and dealing on given laws, but it's my observation that a more generalized "rural" and "urban" split is the point of division.

 

In the US, in most rural areas with a population base culturally established prior to 1970, firearms tend to be a matter of "gee guys, it's just a tool," where in an urban area or post 1970 rural population base it's more like "OMG, how can you stand those horrid mechanisms of mayhem." The "OMG" response tends to be repugnant to the "it's just a tool" guys, and then you end up with the horrid shows of passion and loss of logical argument.

 

Back to Burke during the period of the French revolution, it's interesting to note how his major criticisms of France as a totalitarian state included one of indoctrination by government of people along with force belonging only to the government. Funny thing here. Burke defended the revolution in America, decried the one in France. Why... <grin>

 

m

[retrosurfer1959]

 

 

RS' date=' a point of pride is that I have always had more guns than guitars.

I think about that little guitar collection you have, and your law-enforcement/other past, and wonder.....

 

 

 

Neo You'll be very proud of me then it's not even close probably 3 - 1 for Mr Colt and his brethren. Luckily they don't take up anywhere near the space and I don't usually share pictures. 3 things are always with me my Wallet my Watch and my Stainless Officers Model. If it's cold enough for a jacket his full size brother get's a day out. If it's too hot to cover up at all the Kahr P9 or the PPK or Sig 380 take that role. but for most everything I'm dedicated to my colt's the 1911 is a hard design to beat.

 

and now that our southern border is a cesspool my FNC folding stock and a Galil get bedroom space.

 

I'm not really a gun nut either they are tools with a job now my true weakness is blades both folding and rigid especially customs by Dawson and Strider and Randall's for the bigger needs now that a weakness but give me a good blade and a dark night and I can get me another gun without telling the world.

[zigzag]

"Republican" and "Democrat" in the U.S. may make some difference when there is wheeling and dealing on given laws' date=' but it's my observation that a more generalized "rural" and "urban" split is the point of division.

 

In the US, in most rural areas with a population base culturally established prior to 1970, firearms tend to be a matter of "gee guys, it's just a tool," where in an urban area or post 1970 rural population base it's more like "OMG, how can you stand those horrid mechanisms of mayhem." The "OMG" response tends to be repugnant to the "it's just a tool" guys, and then you end up with the horrid shows of passion and loss of logical argument.

m

[/quote']

 

Good post milod.

 

Man, you guys really got me thinking last night trying to understand the cultural implications behind this amazing discussion. In todays world, in the US, and reflected in the last presidential election, this does seem to be where the dividing line is between US citizens. Not necessarily guns v. gun control, but grass-roots, rural conservatism v. big machine, urban liberalism, with a relatively small and conflicted center (where I find myself). The problem I have with modern conservatism is not so much the ideology as much as the personalities- the Glenn Becks, Rush Limbaughs, Bill O'Reillys, and Sara Palins. The problem I have with liberals is the big government, tax and spend mentality. I find another huge dividing line between the haves and have nots and realize that the very small number of haves control all the money and piss on the have-nots. I also believe that it IS the government's responsibility to help those who cannot help themselves.

 

I know this. Most Americans don't carry guns, don't know how to fire them, don't want to know, and don't care until they are directly affected. It struck me after reading this thread how large a segment of our population makes guns a large part of their heritage and who they are. Part of me understands and another part thinks that is kind of twisted.

 

Unfortunately, it is easier to be oppressed, taxed, and regulated than it is to fight for liberty. I fought the great fight for social justice in the sixties and seventies. Now I basically just want to be left alone to play my guitar, enjoy what's left of my life and my family, and post on this stupid board.

[Bowdiddley]

South Carolina' date=' right?

As far as I know, you'll fill out a Form 4473 for the BATFE, and then the dealer will call the NICS line.

If approved, you walk out.

They have no idea what you bought, except that it's a handgun, long gun, or "other".

No serial number is given to them, not even the manufacturer's name.

The 4473 is kept on record by the dealer, the BATFE never sees it unless they do an audit of dealer records.

 

[/quote']

 

That is correct, and as a CCP holder you simply show your permit and there's no check at all.

[NeoConMan]

I also believe that it IS the government's responsibility to help those who cannot help themselves.

Here's where the rubber meets the road on that one;

There's NOTHING in our Founding documents promising "help" to anybody.

I'm okay with that' date=' and will forever resist the notion that it should be changed.

The government of the United States should have NEVER entered into the charity business.

 

Conversely, charity is the domain of Faith - always has been.

Faith is separated from government, a good thing in everybody's view across the board.

The idea of the Good Samaritan was around long before 60's activists took it up.

Any "help" needed by people living within our borders should come from private funding - Faith based or not, it doesn't matter to me.

YOU wanna help those with less, then get up and go do it.

Leave me (and my wallet) alone to do so as I see fit.

 

 

I know this. Most Americans don't carry guns' date=' don't know how to fire them, don't want to know, and don't care until they are directly affected. It struck me after reading this thread how large a segment of our population makes guns a large part of their heritage and who they are. Part of me understands and another part thinks that is kind of twisted.[/quote']

Almost 100 million Americans own about 300 million guns.

If you look around your circle of acquantances and don't see guns, either they are doing a good job with their privacy or you operate in a pretty Liberal circle by choice.

 

 

Now I basically just want to be left alone to play my guitar' date=' enjoy what's left of my life and my family, and post on this stupid board. [/quote']

Same here, while exercising my rights without challenge.

[Bowdiddley]

You know what, as Neo said in an earlier post, I am very impressed that this thread hasn't turned into a pissing match. Well done everyone!

[zigzag]

YOU wanna help those with less' date=' then get up and go do it.

Leave me (and my wallet) alone to do so as I see fit.[/quote']

 

I give where I can.

[DanvillRob]

You know what' date=' as Neo said in an earlier post, I am very impressed that this thread hasn't turned into a pissing match. Well done everyone![/quote']

 

Shoot...now I have to go to the restroom.........