Compensated nuts to correct intonation - any advice?

[yaz1009]

I have an intonation problem on the low E on my Advanced Jumbo. Most noticeable at the third fret where it is about 20 cents sharp. Enough so that playing a G chord makes me cringe. Have tried string changes and truss rod to no avail. Is plays true at the 12th fret.

 

It has been suggested that I try a compensated bridge with three manufacturers' offered: Earvana, Monte Allums, and Buzz Feiteu.

 

Has anyone had experience experience in correcting this problem, or with using any of these products?

 

Help! Staying away from the G chord is so darn limiting.....

 

thanks ~ jeff

[Jinder]

Earvana is a maker I've heard good things about. I had a Dove a while ago that I had serious intonation probs with, an looked into fitting an Earvana, but ended up changing the guitar, which was a shame as aside from the intonation probs, it was a cannon.

[yaz1009]

Thanks Jinder. I love the guitar otherwise and hope to cure the problem. Just do not want to make permanent structural changes right off the bat. Looks like the Earvana will not require that.

 

btw do you see my post about the festival in Dorset? Its called Larmertree and close to you I believe. Have you heard of it?

[Buc McMaster]

Not had any experience with a compensated nut. What brand/gauge strings do you use? Different makers use different core diameters and it is the core that determines porper intonation. If you're not locked into a particular string you might try a few different maker's sets in your chosen gauge and see how that effects the problem you're experiencing. A different core diameter will change the intonation length and may slove the trouble.

[KL]

Hmmm . . . this is a frustrating problem. A lot of guitars have these kind of issues to some extent around the first few frets. Most often you can tune the strings to an acceptable compromise, but when you come to recording in the studio this is not good enough and every little intonation issue sticks out like a sore thumb. Exactly where these problems occur varies with scale length. However, it sounds like you have a bad case! I would take it to a really good luthier in the first instance and see hwat they suggest. If this was an AJ that you bought new then this issue should be covered under the warranty and I would give Gibson a call if that is the case, and see if they can help you.

[grOOved]

In theory an well setup guitar should intonate without a compensated nut... well... not 20 cents at least.

 

If you have high action for whatever reason it will bend sharp when fretted. This can be due to a guitar that needs to be setup: it could be an issue with the top, saddle, neck relief, and nut slots. I would check the guitar into a reputable tech first then move to a fine-tuned solution.

 

Oh, and FYI, Earvana's material (back when I tried one) was made of high-density polymer... aka plastic.

 

Good luck!

[onewilyfool]

I once had my nuts compensated........Penicillin cleared it right up....

[grOOved]

Me too but then I realized I need to stretch out my fresh g string and put on some nut sauce.... (from Big Bends of course). Have a great weekend everyone!

[yaz1009]

My thanks to both Buc and KL.

 

Buc, I have tried both Elixers and DLs on it with the same result. Both mediums.

 

KL, I guess perhaps the dreaded call to Gibson could be in order. I am leery of that route because of the shipping woes that it may entail. Unless of course there are will to compensate a local luthier.

 

much thanks again , jeff

[yaz1009]

In theory an well setup guitar should intonate without a compensated nut... well... not 20 cents at least.

 

If you have high action for whatever reason it will bend sharp when fretted. This can be due to a guitar that needs to be setup: it could be an issue with the top' date=' saddle, neck relief, and nut slots. I would check the guitar into a reputable tech first then move to a fine-tuned solution.

 

Oh, and FYI, Earvana's material (back when I tried one) was made of high-density polymer... aka plastic.

 

Good luck!

 

[/quote']

 

Why did you try one? Was it any benefit?

[grOOved]

There were only two I could find at the time Earvana and Buzz Feiten. I was a penniless recent college grad so needless to say I went with the $25 Earvana. It did the trick initally, but I hated the tonal changes of going from bone to plastic. I spent some time studying what it was doing particularly where they instructed you to file back the G slot if it was wound. At that point I realized that it was compensating for tension on the fretted notes. The formula was simple the sharper the fretted note the closer you should move the shelf nut.

 

I reached a point where I hated the tone so much I ripped it off and put the old nut back on. At that point I started doing stretch tuning to compensate for any stretching from fretting notes. It was shortly after that I realized I was compensating the tuning b/c my guitar was not setup well. I noticed this especially because if I capo'ed on fret one, I didn't have any intonation problems that I did open. A well cut nut should act like a zero fret. When I got this fixed I no longer had to mess around with compensation or stretch tuning.

[L5Larry]

If a PROPERLY set-up guitar intonates at the 12th fret, and is 20 cents off at the 3rd fret, then is has a SERIOUS manufacturing (or design) defect, and is clearly covered under the Gibson factory warranty of "materials and workmanship" blah, blah, blah. Who could argue a claim against materials and workmanship when the frets aren't in the right place.

 

If your not the original owner of an instrument purchased in the USA, form an "authorized dealer", than it's a different story. But, I see your in Macon, and if you bought the guitar new, you have a very valid warranty claim. There is not a single reason in the world, ANYBODY, on ANY guitar, should need a "compensated" nut.

[drathbun]

Mash down on the low E at the third fret and then look a the gap between the bottom of the string and the top of the 1st fret. It should just be the width of a hair. Just enough space that when you tap on the top of the string at the 1st fret, you get a light "tink" sound. If it is any more of a gap, the nut slot is too high. A high nut slot will throw off intonation in the first position.

 

Also, check for a high third fret. It might have jumped up on ya.

[BigKahune]

... A high nut slot will throw off intonation in the first position. ...

 

+1

 

 

This is a typical factory problem with Gibson electrics that occurs more than it should - badly cut nuts - but unusual for Bozeman. Classic symptom - you press down a note on any of the first 3 or 4 frets and it's sharp. This is because with a slot cut too high, fretting the string close to the nut causes the string to stretch too much, increasing the tension and making the resulting note sharp. You would notice the further away from the nut you fret the string, the problem seems to disappear (because the string no longer has to be stretched to be fretted).

[larryp58]

I once had my nuts compensated........Penicillin cleared it right up....

 

Wiley strikes again!!! Too funny!!!

[watchunglava]

take this to a good luthier who will cut you a new nut and saddle . he will set it up like butter for you.

[yaz1009]

Thanks to all for your helpful comments. After the truss rod adjustment the issue improved some. My thoughts would be on the slot on the nut being wrong, or a high fret >>> at least that is the hope. Everywhere else it intonates correctly and none of the other strings have problems. Seems like if were a greater structural defect that it would be off in more places. Any thoughts on that?

 

I am trying to find who best to take it to. I have spoken with Bob Colosi and he no longer does shop work. There are three warranty shops here in GA and only two give me good feelings after a short internet research. I am hopeful I will be able to talk to someone with first hand knowledge.

 

My local guy is good with set ups but am leery since he suggested the Earvana. I don't like plastic.

[BigKahune]

... Seems like if were a greater structural defect that it would be off in more places. ...

 

Yes. I think you're on it now.

 

Actually, if you had a nut file, you could take the grove down a smidge yourself. As you look for a shop/luthier, talk with them about their approach - look for the words, "will take it slow", "remove a small amount at a time", "re-tune and check". A job for a guy good at tweaking.

 

Earlier this year I had a guy at Elderly shave the bridge on my 12. I liked it when he said he'd go carefully, calculate the distance, shave half, re-tune and see where it was at before removing more material. Two passes and it's perfect. That's what you want.

[yaz1009]

Yes. I think you're on it now.

 

Actually' date=' if you had a nut file, you could take the grove down a smidge yourself. As you look for a shop/luthier, talk with them about their approach - look for the words, "will take it slow", "remove a small amount at a time", "re-tune and check". A job for a guy good at tweaking.

 

Earlier this year I had a guy at Elderly shave the bridge on my 12. I liked it when he said he'd go carefully, calculate the distance, shave half, re-tune and see where it was at before removing more material. Two passes and it's perfect. That's what you want.

 

[/quote']

 

Wow ~ must be nice to have Elderly's nearby. I go to their vintage/used guitars online and drool for hours! Must be great being able to be there in person.

[BigKahune]

Okay, I gotta take that cue. I've been a customer since Stan opened in a basement store front in East Lansing back in the 70s. Anything in the shop is available to play. If there's something hangin high, all you gotta do is ask. Players drive in from quite a ways just to spend the day looking and playing. Great staff. Very knowledgable. The shop is a 5 minute drive from my house. Wish they still had the Gibson retail license, but they've got great used Gibbys.

 

Good luck with the adjustment. :)

[onewilyfool]

Men are always trying to compensate for something......I don't see why nuts would be off the table...

[guitartech]

Compensated nuts WORK !!

You do not have to de-tune and find a compromise. Custom compensated nuts made from white or black Tusq (man made Ivory) or any other material you prefer can be had. Earvana nuts do work to some extent, but are not perfect and may have some tone issues for some people. The Buzz Feinton systen also works but you need to de-tune to a "special" tuning to come close.

 

I have 25 guitars including some high end Gibsons ( the famous Black Beauty for one) and all have compensated nuts and sound SO much better and stay in tune !!

For Compensated Nuts to work properly you need to consider everything... ie. Ga of string, string height (action), level frets, correct depth of the nut slot (imperative), intonation at the 12th fret and fret height, and your playing style (heavy handed, or light playing).

If all these factors are considered you can achieve almost perfect tuning on any guitar.

 

The reason why non compensated guitars have tuning problems is that after you tune to pitch in open tuning, and fret a chord, each string having a DIFFERENT diameter (different mass) will stretch (go sharp) at a different rate, and therefor be out of tune WITH EACH OTHER. This is why the chords in the first few frets sound so sour. as you move up the neck this effect becomes less and less pronounced till you reach the 12th which if properly intonated will be in perfect tune again, but one octave higher. This is also why some people have had some success using a "wound" G string instead of a plain one. The different mass of the wound G corrects a bit in the stretching of that string.

 

You can see some examples of compensated nut pictures at GuitarNutCompensation.com

Good luck.

[Gman]

I installed an earvanna nut on a AJ epiphone. The intonation was way off. The earvanna put it right all the way up and down the neck. It's also easy to install. They have the compensated nut and saddle

Gman

[guitartech]

I forgot to add, once a compensated nut is installed , you must re intonate the bridge. The saddle break points will have to be moved back toward the head stock about as much as the compensation amount at the nut.