Soloing

[ShredAstaire]

Man go check out the Company 91 albums he's involved in...i can only listen for about 5 minutes at a time....lol!

[duane v]

Man go check out the Company 91 albums he's involved in...i can only listen for about 5 minutes at a time....lol!

 

That would be 4:30 more than I would give it..... Not at all my cup of tea

[Look! Im guitarest!]

I find it funny that the same people who say everything has been done musically are the same people who are too afraid to accept experimental genres such as avant garde and free jazz.

[Big Bill]

That has to be one of those "Shred' videos.

[duane v]

That has to be one of those "Shred' videos.

 

[YOUTUBE]

[/YOUTUBE]

[Big Bill]

[YOUTUBE]

[/YOUTUBE]

 

 

At least this one is entertaining.

[Look! Im guitarest!]

I might not be able to do that Derek Bailey stuff, but I can do this:

[Robin Nahum]

Just a bit more on theory :-.

 

I have been fortunate to have lessons from some great players.

 

One of the things they can do is play killer solos at the drop of a hat. Among other things, they are imaginative, exciting and they outline the changes. And when you say, "Wow! Do that again.", they can.

 

And when I say, "Wow! How didja do that?" they say, "Well try playing a harmonic minor over those four bars, kicking off on the 9th" and when I do I sound amazing too - well kinda closer to it than before the lesson anyway. What I don't do is then go home and practise lots - but I'm trying.

 

So my point is that you don't just need to rely on fumbling around to think up solos. I guess these guys sing the solo in their head, and are then able to play it, but they also know what harmonic tools to use.

 

R

[mcmurray]

Californiaman - please fix the poll so that E major is an option. At the moment every choice is incorrect.

[FirstMeasure]

mcmurray, here's a hypothetical situation for ya. Lets say we found ourselves in a Jam together and you started playing an E major Chord Run, and I started playing a lead in C#minor. What would you call that?

[mcmurray]

mcmurray' date=' here's a hypothetical situation for ya. Lets say we found ourselves in a Jam together and you started playing an E major Chord Run, and I started playing a lead in C#minor. What would you call that?[/quote']

 

I'd call it that you were playing in E major also.

[FirstMeasure]

I'd call it that you were playing in E major also.

Even if I "Thought" it was C#Minor? Would that mean that from my perspective the song is C#Minor, but from your perspective, it's E major?

[mcmurray]

Even if I "Thought" it was C#Minor? Would that mean that from my perspective the song is C#Minor' date=' but from your perspective, it's E major?[/quote']

 

If we both agreed that E was the tonal centre then the song would be in E major. If I altered my chord progression to make C# the tonal centre, it would be in C# minor.

 

Technically scales are more than simply a set of notes, they outline a tonality with a distinct tonal centre. I think a lot of people here may not be familiar with the concept of a tonal centre. This is a concept that only fully reveals itself with dedicated ear training.

 

I apologise for being a pedant.

[FirstMeasure]

If we both agreed that E was the tonal centre then the song would be in E major. If I altered my chord progression to make C# the tonal centre' date=' it would be in C# minor.

 

Technically scales are more than simply a set of notes, they outline a [i']tonality[/i] with a distinct tonal centre. I think a lot of people here may not be familiar with the concept of a tonal centre. This is a concept that only fully reveals itself with dedicated ear training.

 

I apologise for being a pedant.

And I apologize for getting all Existential. But if we didn't say a word to each other before we started the Jam, which happens all the time when I'm Jamming, then wouldn't there be Two tonal centers during the moments we were jamming?

[mcmurray]

then wouldn't there be Two tonal centers during the moments we were jamming?

 

I see what you're saying. However I don't believe there can be two or more tonal centres at any given time. There can be ambiguity of a tonal centre' date=' but this only happens when there is not enough information in the tune to nail down the centre. In the case of our jam, the person that was more strongly indicating a tonal centre dictates the key of the moment.

 

Let me put this another way, going back to the original question. As an example, consider Mozart's Sonata in A major, shown below. Should we entertain the possibility that Mozart incorrectly named the key, and the piece is infact in the key of F# minor? Or that the lead voicing is infact based in F# minor? Nope.

 

[YOUTUBE']http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPP0_va2krc[/YOUTUBE]

[duane v]

I'm really enjoying the read[cool]

[Robin Nahum]

Let me put this another way' date=' going back to the original question. As an example, consider Mozart's Sonata in A major, shown below. Should we entertain the possibility that Mozart incorrectly named the key, and the piece is infact in the key of F# minor? Or that the lead voicing is infact based in F# minor? Nope.

[/quote']

 

Hi Mac,

 

I agree that Mozart probably got it right. So why do you think that this piece is in the key of A major rather than F#m?

 

R

[Robin Nahum]

mcmurray' date=' here's a hypothetical situation for ya. Lets say we found ourselves in a Jam together and you started playing an E major Chord Run, and I started playing a lead in C#minor. What would you call that?[/quote']

 

Do you mean the C#m aeolian scale - or one of the others?

 

Because if you were playing in C#m dorian or melodic or harmonic or phrygian, I would say that you were not playing in E major.

[mcmurray]

Hi Mac' date='

 

I agree that Mozart probably got it right. So why do you think that this piece is in the key of A major rather than F#m?

 

R[/quote']

 

Probably not the best example. I can hear that the piece often modulates to it's relative minor - hell it even begins in a minor tonality. However, during the obvious major sections (for example from 0:53 to 1:09), I can clearly identify the centre and it just so happens to be an A.

 

Do you mean the C#m aeolian scale - or one of the others?

 

Because if you were playing in C#m dorian or melodic or harmonic or phrygian' date=' I would say that you were not playing in E major.

[/quote']

 

I take it that he meant natural minor (aeolian).

[FirstMeasure]

That makes complete sense, thanks.

[Robin Nahum]

Probably not the best example. I can hear that the piece often modulates to it's relative minor - hell it even begins in a minor tonality. However' date=' during the obvious major sections (for example from 0:53 to 1:09), I can clearly identify the centre and it just so happens to be an A.[/quote']

 

Okay. So how did you "clearly identify the centre" in the obvious major sections and that it was A?

 

And why, if some bits are "in A major" but others have a "minor tonality", should A major take precedence in titling the piece?

 

 

 

R

[mcmurray]

Okay. So how did you "clearly identify the centre" in the obvious major sections and that it was A?

 

R

 

It was all those Yamaha music school piano lessons I took at age 4 that drilled solfege ear training into my head

 

Now when I listen to something I can't help but notice the tonal centre immediately. For a major key I hear it as 'do' for a minor key I hear it as 'la'.

 

'Movable do' Solfege is concerned with functional pitch recognition' date=' which imho is the only way to go about acquiring a solid sense of relative pitch.

 

I wrote this a few years ago in an attempt to convey to others how they can go about developing a good relative ear and link their ear to the fretboard;

 

http://www.jsguitarforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56336

 

And why, if some bit are "in A major" but others have a "minor tonality", should A major take precedence?

 

 

edit: 2 reasons: 1 because the majority of the tune is major, and 2 A Major is the key signature he decided to use when he penned the tune in standard notation. i.e. A major is the written key. There may be other reasons, but you'd have to ask mozart I'm afraid. Maybe he wrote the major sections first?

 

As I said, it's probably not the best example.

[Robin Nahum]

I think you'll find that the answer is that it is in A major simply because the final chord - the rest point, is A major, but the piece may go through all kinds of keys, possibly completely unrelated to A major, along the way.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_(music)

 

As I noted above, 2-5s in jazz, particularly the V, tell you the key you're in at that point of the song. This is what I have been taught to call the "tone centre". Maybe another name for it could be the "local key".

 

The player needs to analyse the song in this way so that he or she knows what scale will work for improvising over that part of the song.

 

Formal players don't really need to do this kind of analysis when they play a piece by Mozart because they are not going to have to improvise. But they may do it for other reasons.

 

R

[mcmurray]

but the piece may go through all kinds of keys' date=' possibly completely unrelated to A major, along the way.[/quote']

 

It doesn't. It's wholly restricted to A major and it's relative minor.

 

As I noted above' date=' 2-5s in jazz, particularly the V, tell you the key you're in [i']at that point of the song[/i]. This is what I have been taught to call the "tone centre". Maybe another name for it could be the "local key".

 

What if it's not Jazz and there's no V chord? What you are saying is correct, however that is not the only way to determine the tonal centre. Hearing it is the simplest way.

[Robin Nahum]

If you look at "Lester Leaps In", you will see that the chords are basically the "rhythm changes"

 

The A part is basically repeats of 1-6-2-5 with the tonic reflecting the key signature. If the chart is in Bb, the chords will be based on Bbmaj7 Gm7 Cm7 F7.

 

The bridge goes through the cycle of fifths in dominants. With a key signature of Bb the bridge goes:

 

|D7 | ./. |G7 | ./. | C7 | ./. |F7 | ./. |

 

In my parlance, the "tone centre" in these eight bars goes from G to C to F to Bb (which happens to lead nicely into the last 8 which are in Bb).

 

When I improvise over these eight bars, I need to change key every two bars.

 

I might do this in position by using the following scales:

 

D mixolydian

D dorian

D aeolian

D phrygian

 

R