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SHERATON WITH CRACKED NECK - LEAVE OR REPAIR? - PLEASE HELP!


danlopez

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hi all

have just noticed a crack on the neck of my sheraton, by the heel.

think it may have taken a knock at home (kids, etc..)

it appears to be a hairline crack.

from the photos, would you think that it is ok to leave alone, or should i repair.

and what may be the best way to repar it?

 

have noticed also that when i hit a string and push the neck, there is a pitch change, so it seems to have too much movement in it.

 

th_Image1160.jpg

th_Image1158.jpg

th_Image1147.jpg

 

also as a separate issue, the bushing on the tuner for the 'g' string, was worn down almost to nothing. i replaced the bushing with another that i had from another tuner. but there is way too much slack when turning the tuner, and it often goes right out of tune when playing.

 

Image1161.jpg

 

any help would be much appriciated.

 

thank you in advance

regards

dan.

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hi all

have just noticed a crack on the neck of my sheraton' date=' by the heel.

think it may have taken a knock at home (kids, etc..)

it appears to be a hairline crack.

from the photos, would you think that it is ok to leave alone, or should i repair.

and what may be the best way to repar it?

 

have noticed also that when i hit a string and push the neck, there is a pitch change, so it seems to have too much movement in it.

 

th_Image1160.jpg

th_Image1158.jpg

th_Image1147.jpg

 

also as a separate issue, the bushing on the tuner for the 'g' string, was worn down almost to nothing. i replaced the bushing with another that i had from another tuner. but there is way too much slack when turning the tuner, and it often goes right out of tune when playing.

 

p><p><img src=[/img]

any help would be much appriciated.

 

thank you in advance

regards

dan.

 

[/img]

 

OK...now I can see the problem. What has happened is the scarf joint at the heel has separated. This was common on some Epiphone models back in the 70's. It could have been that the joint just came apart without any trauma to the guitar and if you don't know of a specific incident that caused it and the guitar is under warranty I'd look into letting an authorized Epiphone repair man tell me differently. A scarf joint is where two pieces of shorter wood are put together to make a longer piece. Sometimes the glue just dries out or there wasn't a proper bond and it comes apart..and yeah, maybe the cat did knock it over but this should be an easy fix for someone who knows what they're doing (I wouldn't try it at home). The larger expense will be getting the finish back in order after the repair. There isn't a "crack" per se' but the wood has come apart where it was once joined. I would get it some attention pretty soon because the stress of the strings is only going to make it worse. Good luck.

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Not to contradict Uncle Al but if you ask me that problem is mostly cosmetic in nature. The heel piece is more of an esthetic add-on than an actual structural component. I believe that the crack is merely due to differing rates of contraction betwen the heel and the rest of the neck as they age and dry out. Unless the crack turns into an actual gap, I'd leave it be.

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Not to contradict Uncle Al but if you ask me that problem is mostly cosmetic in nature. The heel piece is more of an esthetic add-on than an actual structural component. I believe that the crack is merely due to differing rates of contraction betwen the heel and the rest of the neck as they age and dry out. Unless the crack turns into an actual gap' date=' I'd leave it be.[/quote']

 

Hmmm so the "cosmetic" crack just coincidentally follows the scarf joint?... and the poster said he's noticed "movement" what I think is that there was a separation and that caused the "cosmetic crack" and I've seen enough of the 70's models like the FT-570 that have that cosmetic crack that within time become completely separated. Whatever the case, have someone who knows take a look at it..and no, the heel is where the tenon connects to the interior neck block inside the body and the top part of the neck with the headstock and the string stress is connected by the joint at the heel..it's a bit more than an aesthetic issue.

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First, I sure like that finish!

 

any set neck will give you some pitch change if you push the neck... mine does! I do it on purpose at times.

one piece necks are worse.. mahogany sgs drive me nuts--I'm too had on 'em.

 

both these guys are right in my view..

it's more than likely cosmetic. keep an eye on it.. if it's growing then uncle al is right on the money.

the healing process is removal.. so.. getting the finish back to right, and the cost will be high.

 

dump those tuners.. once you start fixing them it's pretty much over.

 

I just put grover imperials on mine. looks incredibly fancy good!

I'll get you a deal on any grovers or klusons or gotohs or schallers.

 

a lutheir might be able to use a needle and get some glue in that joint and reclamp it.. that would be MY first cure.

but it's hard to say just from pics, too!

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PITCH CHANGE: How long have you been playing? The neck is supposed to flex. If you work it properly, you can get trembelo or lift on chord endings. The Tele is exceptionally good with this...you'd realy be scared if you played any fender...you don't even need a trem arm unless your into some major alternate sounds....It is supposed to flex. That's a good thing...LOL

 

THE CRACK: It looks superficial and finish only. If it were seperated, the neck would not be on..period. This is common on many guitars with heel plates...the finish coat does not flex as much at that point and seperates. Old laquer guitars had major cracks on the finish, which is why acrylic works better..it streachs more, but not as much as the neck. the heel is supposed to be stationary. Fender incorporates the heel with the body, but you lose sustain in any semi or hollow body that way.....Don't worry about it...your simply being finikey...

 

When it does seperate to where you actually see wood apart or you can fit a finger nail between the neck and heel plate, worry about it.

 

If it bothers you that much, take it to an experenced luthier who can simply toutch it up; but, I wouldn't worry about it at all. Many acoustics,in fact ALL BRANDS WITH A TOP CLEAR COAT, do this in time with use....it's normal to a great degree. I had a 12 string that did this in a month, 30 years latter, still the same....so I'm simply conveying what I was told back then....and he was right.

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PITCH CHANGE: How long have you been playing? The neck is supposed to flex. If you work it properly' date=' you can get trembelo or lift on chord endings. The Tele is exceptionally good with this...you'd realy be scared if you played any fender...you don't even need a trem arm unless your into some major alternate sounds....It is supposed to flex. That's a good thing...LOL

 

THE CRACK: It looks superficial and finish only. If it were seperated, the neck would not be on..period. This is common on many guitars with heel plates...the finish coat does not flex as much at that point and seperates. Old laquer guitars had major cracks on the finish, which is why acrylic works better..it streachs more, but not as much as the neck. the heel is supposed to be stationary. Fender incorporates the heel with the body, but you lose sustain in any semi or hollow body that way.....Don't worry about it...your simply being finikey...

 

When it does seperate to where you actually see wood apart or you can fit a finger nail between the neck and heel plate, worry about it.

 

If it bothers you that much, take it to an experenced luthier who can simply toutch it up; but, I wouldn't worry about it at all. Many acoustics,in fact ALL BRANDS WITH A TOP CLEAR COAT, do this in time with use....it's normal to a great degree. I had a 12 string that did this in a month, 30 years latter, still the same....so I'm simply conveying what I was told back then....and he was right.[/quote']

 

Here's some "superficial" cracks..

 

fa_12.jpg

 

59_12.jpg

 

This is what eventually occurs when those "superficial" finish cracks are left unattended.

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yep.. shoot some glue in there and clamp.. that's simlified but that's the deal except where it can easily be lifted out and cleaned and replaced.

 

stuff like that will hold for twenty years sometimes.

still it's better to mind the old chinese saying about a little mistake at the beginning becoming a big problem later on..

just keep an eye on it and you'll see if it worsens.

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I'm leaning towards uncle Al on this one...if it's cracking right along the scarf joint it's only going to get worse. It's a simple fix for a good luthier at this point though and I'd take the pay him now rather than the pay him later approach on this one. Put a better set of tuners on there for sure....that one's a no brainer. If there is movement to the extent that the crack opens or closes at all with a little pressure on the headstock ...it needs attention.

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Simple to me:

 

1) NOBODY can diagnose your problem from photos.

2) If you're the original owner' date=' get it fixed under the warranty. Otherwise, find a well-qualified luthier to check it out.[/quote']

 

 

I think it's pretty unanimously recommended that he get a pro luthier's opinion to be safe.

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yep. pics make guesses come alive!

 

I guess what baffles me though is when I say : "I've seen this before (in person), it's something that does happen and here's the cause and then show the ultimate end result of that effect (in photos) someone then just has to dispute it out of ego or competition or whatever. I didn't pull what I said out of my ***. This is something I've seen dozens of times so if I see it in a photograph I don't have to question....hmmm, I wonder what that is???...If I see a photo of a flat tire and I say..."oh, that's a flat tire"... it always seems someone just has to come up and say.."No, you're wrong, it just doesn't have any air in it". I agree that in a lot of instances you can't diagnose the problem from a photograph but if you see a "finish crack" and it runs the exact contour of a known joint then common sense alone should suggest there's a correlation between that joint and that crack and that the crack was related to that joint not being stable and thus allowing movement beneath the finish which is what caused the crack in the finish in the first place...DUH-AH. If I see a "finish" crack, and have been at this long enough to know a finish crack from lacquer crazing-especially since poly doesn't craze the same way as lacquer and is stronger (and thicker) than lacquer so it would take considerable movement to crack the poly in the first place and if that crack is symmetrical with a known joint...again...DUH...and if you can "see" the crack but can't "feel" the crack then it would seem that the crack is in the wood not the finish so by the time you can "feel" the crack enough to get a fingernail or whatever into it then it's beyond a superficial finish crack... Yes, I agree take to someone who can examine it in person and is knowledgeable and competent enough to make a determination and assessment and ultimately repair the problem but don't listen to some someone who bounces along and says "It's superficial"..."it won't hurt anything"...your (sic) simply being nit-picky" sheesh...where do these yokels come from, did a turnip truck tip over somewhere and they escaped?.. and who has lied to them and convinced them they have a clue?...get it checked out...rant over, I'm now returning to my usual cuddly, adorable persona.

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yep.. shoot some glue in there and clamp..

 

If the crack follows a previously glued joint' date=' no amount of glue you pump in there will fix the problem unless the glue is epoxy, in which case you won't be pumping something that thick in to a small crack like that. The only other glue I know of which will adhere in a situation like that is cyanoacrylate, which is [u']not[/u] considered a structural glue.

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DUH-AH. If I see a "finish" crack' date=' and have been at this long enough to know a finish crack from lacquer crazing-especially since poly doesn't craze the same way as lacquer and is stronger (and thicker) than lacquer so it would take considerable movement to crack the poly in the first place and if that crack is symmetrical with a known joint...again...DUH...and if you can "see" the crack but can't "feel" the crack then it would seem that the crack is in the wood not the finish so by the time you can "feel" the crack enough to get a fingernail or whatever into it then it's beyond a superficial finish crack... Yes, I agree take to someone who can examine it in person and is knowledgeable and competent enough to make a determination and assessment and ultimately repair the problem but don't listen to some someone who bounces along and says "It's superficial"..."it won't hurt anything"...your..delete delete

[/quote']

 

Uncle Al, RotCanx..time out! Each go into your corners and don't come out until the

next round's bell rings. We (speaking as a forum group looking at the posted

pictures) are still making a superficial analysis of what is still

either a crack in the butt joint at the heel or not,(scarf joints are generally done at an

angle) like in Gibson 17 degree headstocks, to extend enough wood to make a headstock.

 

Uncle Al, your right..poly finishes dont craze, so it could be perceived as a crack, but

it is not known how far it is into the heel and the dovetail block.

 

Like someone already mentioned, necks will change pitch if flexed..that is normal and

that is why there is a truss rod.

 

Pumping in some glue into the crack is not going to fix the problem, even with epoxy. Pressure is required

as well to rejoin the wood fibers as tight as possible...that would mean opening up the crack, (if that

is what it is) some more to get the glue in and then clamping the heel at that spot.

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well what can i say,

1st of all thanks for all the replies!

uncle al was right in his suggestions.

it does indeed seem to be a finish crack, which runs directly over the scarf? joint.

this was not there before. it must have taken a knock.

it is also not a new guitar.....there is no serial number anywhere, but has been guestimated as being from between

1983-1986, at my local epiphone and gibson dealer.

so there aint no warranty.

 

i guess i'll find someone to take a look at it, don't have much cash though. its gonna be expensive?

 

again , thanks for all the replies, much appriciated!

dan.

 

ps- 'josluck' i do own 2 x fenders, and what i meant was that there was an increased flex in the neck of the epi, thats what made me notice the crack.

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If the crack follows a previously glued joint' date=' no amount of glue you pump in there will fix the problem unless the glue is epoxy, in which case you won't be pumping something that thick in to a small crack like that. The only other glue I know of which will adhere in a situation like that is cyanoacrylate, which is [u']not[/u] considered a structural glue.

 

The problem at hand is a scarf joint that has become separated due to moisture present in the wood at the time of the bonding, bad glue, inadequate bonding or whatever...or it could be the result of a trauma to the instrument or even an extreme environmental condition the instrument was exposed to (excessive dryness, moisture or temperature) and these things, coupled with the stress of the strings on the neck, all come into play there's a separation. Regardless of what caused it the remedy is to re-glue the area. Twang is correct that it's maybe possible to shoot some glue into the joint and that may be a temporary fix and temporary could as he said, be twenty years but the inherent problem is the joint itself and the only complete fix is to completely separate it remove any old glue residue and re-glue it...in the past I've done this using hide glue and it's worked but hide glue is messy and requires heat and preparation and working within a short time window and it's not something I'd recommend trying on a prized guitar without some prior experience. This is why I'd suggest taking it to someone who does similar repairs on a regular basis and has the heat pots and other paraphernalia required to accomplish the task. There probably are other types of glue which will also work but this isn't an area of my expertise and again why I'd take it to someone who is an expert in this sort of repair. If this were in a non-structural area such as a small crack or check on the top or back I maybe would say to ignore it because often fixing it will leave more cosmetic problems than you began with. This however is at a place of great stress and will only worsen if not given attention. As I said, I've seen this dozens of times, it's not a mystery and it's not a serious problem unless it's allowed to become one...and I see you've just posted, Dan. My suggestion is to take to someone who can look at it and make a determination of what needs to be done. Good luck.

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well what can i say' date='

1st of all thanks for all the replies!

uncle al was right in his suggestions.

it does indeed seem to be a finish crack, which runs directly over the scarf? joint.

this was not there before. it must have taken a knock.

it is also not a new guitar.....there is no serial number anywhere, but has been guestimated as being from between

1983-1986, at my local epiphone and gibson dealer.

so there aint no warranty.

 

i guess i'll find someone to take a look at it, don't have much cash though. its gonna be expensive?

 

again , thanks for all the replies, much appriciated!

dan.

 

ps- 'josluck' i do own 2 x fenders, and what i meant was that there was an increased flex in the neck of the epi, thats what made me notice the crack.

 

[/quote']

If you're able to perceive a flexing at that point in the neck I'd have to say it's beyond a finish crack and the finish is what's probably holding the neck together. As far as expense, I'd say at any rate fixing the problem is going to be a lot cheaper than replacing the guitar. I don't know how repair rates go in the UK but I would guess, and this is only a guess, that the repair itself would probably be in the $$125-$150 (£60-£75 ? ) range with further expense for repairing the finish but that with a well-done repair could be minimal or even something you could do yourself. I'd take it in and see what they say and work from there. Good luck again.

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well im pretty sure about the flexing. but the guitar is not with me as im working.

the pictures i posted are not v.good, they were taken with a camera phone.

i'll take some clearer close ups with a 10 megapixel camera and see if there's any difference.

thanks AL.

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Uncle Al' date=' RotCanx..time out! Each go into your corners and don't come out until the

next round's bell rings. We (speaking as a forum group looking at the posted

pictures) are still making a superficial analysis of what is still

either a crack in the butt joint at the heel or not,(scarf joints are generally done at an

angle) like in Gibson 17 degree headstocks, to extend enough wood to make a headstock.

 

Uncle Al, your right..poly finishes dont craze, so it could be perceived as a crack, but

it is not known how far it is into the heel and the dovetail block.

 

Like someone already mentioned, necks will change pitch if flexed..that is normal and

that is why there is a truss rod.

 

Pumping in some glue into the crack is not going to fix the problem, even with epoxy. Pressure is required

as well to rejoin the wood fibers as tight as possible...that would mean opening up the crack, (if that

is what it is) some more to get the glue in and then clamping the heel at that spot.

[/quote']

and you're correct, it's technically not a "scarf joint" but it's also not a "butt joint"...it's actually a modified splice joint but "scarf joint" has become a catch all phrase for those joints that are used in necks and making use of short timber...and I have no quarrel or problem with Spud. He's one of the members here that I do have respect for and consideration of his knowledge and contribution...I just don't think he saw the clear separation that is present in the Sheraton's heel joint.

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LOL, hey...the one shown as 'unattended' is the exact size I was told to get repaired: FINGERNAIL. So what was wrong with that?

 

You don't just 'shoot glue in.' You have to steam/HEAT it apart and that takes a professional WITH THE RIGHT TOOLS and is costly. If you try to do this yourself, you may well split the heel and then you will have a repair that will COST MORE THEN THE GUITAR COST TO BEGIN WITH.....OR DARN CLOSE...

 

If he has the money fine...warrenty, they wouldn't take mine on 'superficial' surface splits...and it was the same 30 years almost to the day as it was when I asked...and it was strung for 30 years be I here or overseas and in storage.

 

I agree AND wonder: Have you even had the guitar professionally set up to begin with? or just play out of the box?

 

1. warrenty if they would take it.

 

2. Lutiher if you have the money.

 

3. Wait until there is a real problem if you all don'ts gots da money.

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LOL' date=' hey...the one shown as 'unattended' is the exact size I was told to get repaired: FINGERNAIL. So what was wrong with that?

 

You don't just 'shoot glue in.' You have to steam/HEAT it apart and that takes a professional WITH THE RIGHT TOOLS and is costly. If you try to do this yourself, you may well split the heel and then you will have a repair that will COST MORE THEN THE GUITAR COST TO BEGIN WITH.....OR DARN CLOSE...

 

If he has the money fine...warrenty, they wouldn't take mine on 'superficial' surface splits...and it was the same 30 years almost to the day as it was when I asked...and it was strung for 30 years be I here or overseas and in storage.

 

I agree AND wonder: Have you even had the guitar professionally set up to begin with? or just play out of the box?

 

1. warrenty if they would take it.

 

2. Lutiher if you have the money.

 

3. Wait until there is a real problem if you all don'ts gots da money.

 

[/quote']

 

First you need to understand that this isn't a "surface split" in the finish. The joint at the heel of the neck under the finish has separated which has caused the finish to split. In very short time, under the stress of the strings that joint will completely come apart (see the photos I posted of the 70's Epiphone FT-570). The guitar is apparently older so it's not under warranty. As far as a set up, I'd love for you to explain what a set up is going to do to help a structural problem but maybe another time for that ' K? I really think based upon my personal experience of seeing that particular problem more than a few times over the past thirty five years or so that a visit to a qualified repair person is in order here if he wishes to preserve the guitar. If he doesn't currently have the money my advice would be to de-string the guitar until such time that he has the money. There's already a "real" problem and if I could wish one thing for the guy it's that he takes the guitar to someone who really knows about these things and I turn out to be wrong and it is only superficial. Both photos of the blond FT-570 are of the guitar in its current state and the only thing holding it together is the fretboard glue.

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right

i took the guitar to my local luthier who had a look at it.

he says at the moment it is a superficial crack in the finish.

it is obviously in a weak'ish point of the heel/scarf/neck joint or whatever but from what he can see it shouldn't cause too many problems.

if i wanted to remedy it now, his only option would be to crack the neck off, and re-glue the whole lot. then obviously i'd have to get it re-finished.

in his opinion, the joint is still structurally sound and so he advised me to leave it for now. if it gets any worse i'll take it back round there an he can have another look.

so as long as i take care, it should be ok./

oh yeah and he replaced the dodgy tuner for free.

dan

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