Steven Lister Posted June 8, 2008 Share Posted June 8, 2008 Here's the issue: New VJr. owners are unnecessarily confused by over-zealous modding advice found on this forum. Case in point -- read the thread titled "VJr. V3 mods???" NEW VJr. VERSION 3 owners/shoppers --- YOU SHOULD KNOW... VERSION 3 is one terrific amp out-of-the-box --- NONE OF the mods discussed on this forum are in any way essential for great tone from the V3 --- mods are purely optional --- many tone tweaks can be attained by a cheap, easy tube upgrade!!! Start there..., then if you want something different (more V*x or Marsha** like), well hey it's your amp -- but even then you may want to try a pedal first. (And if you're wondering no, I am not affiliated with Epi/Gibson in any way, shape, or form.) Most of the members who reply to the Epiphone Amp topic questions strongly favor modding all VJr.s. Thread after thread here discusses/encourages one mod or another (and a fair number of ooops..., well there goes some $$$..., now whats). Don't be misled/confused!!! Most members started out with the older VJr. versions that really needed help. Some of them do not even own a version 3, so what does that say about their opinion regarding the V3? Outdated perhaps? With VERSION 3 Epi changed the VJr. playbook --- now herein lies the real crux of my words-to-the-wise ---- IMO it is unfair to new forum members and especially to new version 3 owners, to mislead them by advice like that found in the thread mentioned above. All good intentions aside such advice: +++ confuses new/prospective owners (the topic starter there said his "head was spinning"), +++ encourages mods that are not really needed, +++ stands a good chance of taking those not technically proficient down a road that they do not want or need to be on. +++ does not usually point out that mods may be dangerous/lethal for those who do not know how to deal with high tube amp voltages! So, come on lads: How about a little more care and straight talk for the newbies joining us? Go ahead fellow forum members, let the slings and arrows fly if you must, but new guys out there know..., 1. I am a thrilled V3 (stock w/tube upgrade only) owner -- I have no plans to mod mine -- and have tonal range from SRV-like to Floyd-like to Hooker-like to, most importantly for me, WHAT I-LIKE, depending upon whatever else I am using in my signal chain (pedals, POD, speakers, guitar, PLAYING TECHNIQUE!, and etcetera). My point is you can too, and much more because I'm just a seasoned, but nobody special, guitar player. 2. Nuances of guitar vol/tone pot settings and playing stlyes coupled with the 1 knob VJr. provides a substantial amount of control over your tone w/o usage of any pedal (for an easy-to-follow guide see, Obed's post titled "Ending the pedal dance -- a tube amp tone tip"). Master the instrument --- V3 will be there for you! 3. Adding pedals (or PODs, etc.) add a multitude of dimensions to a V3 -- and no it does not ruin the tube tone as I have seen claimed here and elsewhere -- just as a pedal or POD won't ruin a V*x or Marsha**'s tone (when we want to sound like Jimi we all need a little help from an xxx: so did Jimi!!!) -- the changes can be better or worse depending upon what tones you hear, how well you play, and just about everything else in your tone chain. 4. V3s do not need any soldering type mods! -- any tinkering is (always really) purely optional. It's just like "buyer beware" -- 1st step to taking any advice is consider the source, e.g.: Does it apply to my V3 amp? Does the person own a V3? and so on.... Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted June 8, 2008 Share Posted June 8, 2008 So' date=' come on lads: [u']How about a little more care and straight talk for the newbies joining us[/u]? How about a little more care reading in? I don't want this to come off harsh sounding. I do appreciate your concern. The VJ is the first cheap "industry" tube amp in decades. A great platform to gain some hands-on experience modding a tube amp(if you want to). But current VJ models don't have to be modded. It's adviced with version 1, and to certain extent with version 2. It's still a nice amp in unmodded form. Appreciate it for what it is. If not, be prepared to use the search-button. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wpkg Posted June 8, 2008 Share Posted June 8, 2008 +++ does not usually point out that mods may be dangerous/lethal for those who do not know how to deal with high tube amp voltages! thats not fair at all and I think wholly untrue. I do not know what sparked your recent pro version-3 tirade, but to suggest that people around here are not interested in other people's safety is misleading and somewhat slanderous to all the good people here I have learned from. I have gotten advice from Gil, Layboomo, twang and M-theory to name a few, either from searching old posts or direct email. every last one of them has made statements regarding the safety of working on tube amps. in fact on the sewatt forum and this forum as well safety is the very first thing i read about and I did NOT have to go hunting for it. There are few fools who go about half cocked and report back with posts about exploding amps but I really do NOT think they are the norm. and you know what? I liked working on my amp, I knew about modding it before I bought it. that was and is half the fun of this cheap amp. if you are happy with your stock version 3 thats great. but some people might really like to try out new mods for it. you have no right to discourage them from that as heavily as you are. this is after all a forum about 75% dedicated to modding this particular amp. plus plenty of people here have often said "only mod it if YOU don't like what you hear from the stock amp" so I don't know where you get the idea that EVERYONE says you MUST mod this amp. every tip I have read says what so and so mod does and when it might be useful, NOT that you HAVE to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layboomo Posted June 8, 2008 Share Posted June 8, 2008 Steven I have always stressed Safety First in any of my posts and for you to imply otherwise is just plain foolish. As for the version 3 being great right out of the box and Epi changing the VJR playbook....where do you suppose those changes came from??? The common mods recommended and perfected by Electrical Engineers on some of the popular amp modding forums were implemented by Epi in the version 3 amp.....and yes it is much better than the first 2 versions but it can still benefit from a few mods to get the voltages tamed down a bit to extend tube life etc... Do you have to do it? OF course not(read my words Steven and take note and stop misquoting some of the knowledgeable modders here). The valve Jr is a simple amp that can go from good to excellent tone with a few mods which most people who can use a soldering iron and read a schematic are capable of...and there is a lot of guidence out there if you chose to do so. If you are not comfortable working on tube amps with potentially lethal voltages...then Don't Do It! Most of us have said exactly that if you bothered to read a little before posting. That is as open and honest as it gets Steven......if you chose to read more into it t, then that's really your problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWANG Posted June 8, 2008 Share Posted June 8, 2008 --- NONE OF the mods discussed on this forum are in any way essential for great tone from the V3 can't argue with that. what is essential? It's a matter of choice, tone wise. --- many tone tweaks can be attained by a cheap, easy tube upgrade!!! Nobody is going to argue the difference between a 5751 and a 12ax7. And there are differences even between brands of the same type tube. None of those changes will correct your voltages and let your tube lives a nice long happy life though. ---Some of them do not even own a version 3 I had two V2 and two V3s. It's not really a fair criticism, as the differences are small, well understood, as as is pointed out, V3 changes seem awfully similar to those suggested by modders in the first place. ---encourages mods that are not really needed, Come now. I can't recall a single post in which any modder suggest something not asked about. ---stands a good chance of taking those not technically proficient down a road that they do not want or need to be on. Let the modder beware! ---does not usually point out that mods may be dangerous/lethal for those who do not know how to deal with high tube amp voltages! Nope. safety warnings all over the place. Admonitions as well. People are constantly saying be careful, learn how to do it, read a lot first, refer to the FAQ, know your limitations, etc., etc., etc. ---V3s do not need any soldering type mods! -- any tinkering is (always really) purely optional. you're not going to get your voltages correct, or a SGR installed without soldering. A lot of what you're saying I can agree with. The V3 sounds really good, especially for the money. Many people are quite happy with it's tone. I can sit mine down next to any stock version and easily show differences that will appeal to different people. Objective, hearable, differences. Things I can achieve with it, that can't be duplicated on the stock version. In previous posts, this was mentioned, too. There are things most feel should be done, for example to make the amp easier on the tubes. And then there are things people want to do. Just because you don't want any options doesn't mean another person is wrong for wanting them. I use the gain volume tweed tone knobs all the time on mine. And the differences are both subtle and sledgehammer different. I planned on modding one, and leaving the other stock. But the difference was just too great. You don't mention tube substitutions here. Adding a 6V6 or other tube can make the amp very different sounding, no matter which version you start with. I can see your point. Epis got a good amp. That five year warranty is an excellent thing to have. It's not a competition in that regard, I don't think. We don't all wear the same brand sneakers, but that doesn't mean one is right and the rest wrong. As far as the money goes.. you know, people have to decide for themselves as to how successful they might be, and what it will cost to fail, partially or completely. Choice is good. Is a modified VJ worth 250.00 or better.. according to ebay, the answer is yes. According to modders, the money they've spent is well spent. Epiphone deserves great credit, here. They started with an idea that filled a niche, I think that's clear. The early sales of V1 and 2 prove it. They made it nicely, good sounding and for very little money. They did a lot to bring tube tone to beginners who'd been compelled to use and know the sound of SS due to cost, and to the requirements of contemporary music. No doo dads in the VJ! They inspired discussion, communication, argument! (always), and have provided a really good starting point for learnng tube tone. Looks like 'win win' to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eracer_Team Posted June 8, 2008 Share Posted June 8, 2008 Steven: You're right, none of the valve junior's need to have any modifications. If you're happy with the way yours sounds; then play away. And there is nothing wrong with “just” a volume control. You may find yourself changing tube prematurely but that’s your choice. The problem is (or so I’ve found out on 4 different forums): Nobody likes to read. Plan and simple, the same questions get asked and asked again, people don’t read. Everyone should read the top most sticky post in this forum: Valve JR 101 Mod Thread Transfer http://forums.epiphone.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=7 We should get Layboomo to edit this post since the Gibson server has now passed away to a new server and the “good” info that was on the Gibson server is now gone and the links should be updated. And if we can get him to bring the one post that’s on SEwatt.com over to here. How do I mod a tube amp without killing myself? (http://www.sewatt.com/node/16237) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eracer_Team Posted June 8, 2008 Share Posted June 8, 2008 NOTE to anyone looking to modify your amp or work on your amp or even thinking about working on your amp… Join www.sewatt.com Its free, you have a whole forum dedicated to work on amp’s with a wealth of safety information along with more modifications you can put into one amp (although some have tried) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layboomo Posted June 8, 2008 Share Posted June 8, 2008 We should get Layboomo to edit this post since the Gibson server has now passed away to a new server and the “good” info that was on the Gibson server is now gone and the links should be updated. And if we can get him to bring the one post that’s on SEwatt.com over to here. How do I mod a tube amp without killing myself? (http://www.sewatt.com/node/16237) ET I've thought about it and quite honestly people ask the basic questions here and wind up at sewatt which is the way I think it should be. Perhaps the moderators can delete the links that don't work and we can start with a clean slate and add the (http://www.sewatt.com/node/16237) link at the top? I don't have the authority to do that. Actually maybe I do......I'll give it a try! All the links on my initial post are functional I believe. Anything after that I can't edit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eracer_Team Posted June 8, 2008 Share Posted June 8, 2008 Yeah Lay that's why you see my second post stating to everyone that's just thinking of doing something to head over to www.sewatt.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Lister Posted June 10, 2008 Author Share Posted June 10, 2008 Steven: You're right' date=' none of the valve junior's need to have any modifications. If you're happy with the way yours sounds; then play away. And there is nothing wrong with “just” a volume control. You may find yourself changing tube prematurely but that’s your choice.[/quote'] EXACTLY. And that is straight-talk advice Fleetlin49 was seeking, and why I called you (and the others) on it when you ill-advised him by claiming that the voltage lowering mod was essential. You're a better member for coming clean on this issue.:- This post is not about me. I did my homework. This post is about new/prospective owners of a VJr. (V3 in particular) and making some simple information simple. And, why not? This is the "official" Epiphone forum and where those who have never owned a VJr. before should look first. Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cGil Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 This post is not about me. I did my homework. Like I'm so sure! It is about you. Otherwise, you wouldn't be so defensive or even taken time to brag about your study habits to qualify your remarks. So I'm am left totally questioning your motives here. I'm beginning to strongly suspect that you're in cahoots with a tube distributor and just trying to push kids that are hoping for an easy fix into throwing good money after bad. Because if you really had, as you claim, done your homework; you would've found endless posted complaints about how quickly the power tubes seem to go bad, and how often the voltages involved are above and beyond the limits defined and published by the tube manufacturers. That is, unless you really have noticed the rate of destruction and are simply being dishonest about it so you can push more tubes. Or maybe your diatribes are part of your own psychological defense mechanism in justifying a personal lack of skill with an iron and a meter. Who knows? Only the individual VJr owner, properly armed with a meter and the info needed to use it effectively can determine for themselves what is essential or necessary for the life and wellbeing of their amp. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts! So, NOT essential? What know you of other folks power service situations? Maybe you should take a meter and check your own gear, instead of blathering on about how brilliant you are for knowing what's essential or not for others. Telling folks everything's fine and not to worry, even though their amp is eating tubes, is doing them a disservice when they come here asking for help. Furthermore, there are quite a few folks around here who have modded dozens of VJr's. They have tons of experience with these amps and they are telling people the straight facts, so perhaps you should listen to what they have to say instead of trying to butt heads for the sake of your ego. Time for you to come clean and fess up. Gil... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layboomo Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Like I'm so sure! It is about you. Otherwise' date=' you wouldn't be so defensive or even taken time to brag about your study habits to qualify your remarks. So I'm am left totally questioning your motives here. I'm beginning to strongly suspect that you're in cahoots with a tube distributor and just trying to push kids that are hoping for an easy fix into throwing good money after bad. Because if you really had, as you claim, done your homework; you would've found endless posted complaints about how quickly the power tubes seem to go bad, and how often the voltages involved are above and beyond the limits defined and published by the tube manufacturers. That is, unless you really have noticed the rate of destruction and are simply being dishonest about it so you can push more tubes. Or maybe your diatribes are part of your own psychological defense mechanism in justifying a personal lack of skill with an iron and a meter. Who knows? Only the individual VJr owner, properly armed with a meter and the info needed to use it effectively can determine for themselves what is essential or necessary for the life and wellbeing of their amp. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts! So, NOT essential? What know you of other folks power service situations? Maybe you should take a meter and check your own gear, instead of blathering on about how brilliant you are for knowing what's essential or not for others. Telling folks everything's fine and not to worry, even though their amp is eating tubes, is doing them a disservice when they come here asking for help. Furthermore, there are quite a few folks around here who have modded dozens of VJr's. They have tons of experience with these amps and they are telling people the straight facts, so perhaps you should listen to what they have to say instead of trying to butt heads for the sake of your ego. Time for you to come clean and fess up. Gil...[/quote'] You know what Gil the thing that I really don't understand about Steven is his arrogance. To state that he has "done his homework" and imply that his opinion is the "right" one compared to some of the amazingly smart EE's(I'm not going to drag their names through this muck but all of them recommend voltage mods to maximize tube life and tone) that originated the mods seen on the version 3 astounds me. Based on what Steven?? Have YOU modded 10 or 12 valve jr's and compared them to the originals the way Gil and some of us have? I think not! You also seem to have an abnormal fear of soldering irons and schematics? I just don't get why you lash out at some of these guys who have helped many people achieve far superior than stock tones from a valve jr. You make it sound like they are all out there trying to convince newbies to get in over their heads and play with high voltages without first reading and knowing what they are doing. Nothing could be further from the truth. I've known many of these guy's since the valve jr first came out and with each mod that improved the tone we all shared notes and links and information...and we have continued to do just that including anybody who expressed an interest. But you would know all that if you had truely done your homework because the threads are here and on sewatt and many other sites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cGil Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Yeah bro. Too bad we lost the original Epi-Forum threads. A lot of good info all the way back to the hey days of the Electar Tube 10 went down. But indeed, the facts and history of the VJr are still available for everyone, provided they take the time to do some genuine homework! If anyone is interested, the original 18watt monster thread WAS saved in the archives on SEwatt.com, and for many VJr modders who started riding this wave from the early days, that was and still is considered the mother of all threads. SEwatt came into being along with the version 3 VJr, so if anyone takes the time to read that recent history as well, they'll come to know who the pros are, and the many newbies who grew into the seasoned tweakers that still take the time to help other newbies find their way. They'll know that the V3 VJr still has a ways to go for improvement, in spite of a few minor factory upgrades. And perhaps best of all, they'll come to know of the joy of taking the basic VJr tone in new directions they may never had otherwise known could be achieved. Seek the truth and you will find it. Do the real homework, and it'll definitely be well worth the time. And for those who've come to mod... I salute you! Gil... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Lister Posted June 11, 2008 Author Share Posted June 11, 2008 --------- Painting a simple and fuller/better picture for the new & prospective VJr. V3 owners out there is the grander design and my only objective: And the V3 information on this forum is now better because of it. I have great respect for fellow musicians who will read this new V3 info. and then decide what is right for them. --------- --- Those of you who hit below the belt (you know who you are and now so does everyone else): Your opinion is your prerogative, good, bad, right, wrong, or indifferent. Whatever your decision is regarding the voltage situation if it works for you, okay, but it is definitely not essential and is most definitely not for everyone. So, are you really more interested in intimidating readers away who have viewpoints different from your own than you are in encouraging members to openly discuss the topics that have multiple points of view? Uh, no not me, I’m not going away (perhaps to your chagrin). But the others looking in may see your callous, off-topic personal tirades and conclude that this is not such a friendly/helpful forum after all: Steven Lister said, "there's another way to look at this idea -- tell it straight" -- and look at what happened to him! --- Is that your objective? – some kind of exclusive club of robot-like “yes members”? Fleetlin49 & other NEW & PROSPECTIVE MEMBERS: If you don't already know this, no other member dictates what goes on here: Ask your questions. Read with a cautious eye. Speak your mind. Most of us here keep it real. FREEDOM of EXPRESSION = POWER to the MUSICIAN-people (Right On!) Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cGil Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 Dude! Were glad you think your VJr is perfect. For all we know, you're tone deaf and wouldn't be able to hear any improvement anyway, so why bother, right? But insisting everything's fine doesn't make it so for everyone else. With your head stuck so far into your own tiny gopher hole, it's no wonder you can't smell the cowpies you're dropping and standing in. Get a life! If someone wants to learn to mod their VJr, maybe YOU should accept the reality of THEIR needs and either offer some genuine help, or get your negative butt out of their way. Gil... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWANG Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 There were no changes essential on my sheraton. But the p90s sounded better to me, the grover imperials looked way better and tuned better.. the pots and caps got swapped out and I gained a little more control and nuance as well as better tone. none of it was essential. But the guitar plays and looks better than it ever did.. to me. Glad I did it. Essential.. it's not essential that you even enjoy making love. One can produce a child, or simply attain some degree of relief from good old mr. biological imperitive..that appears to be all that's essential. But dude... a couple of midgets, a bowl of fruit, a feather duster and gallon and a half of sta-stiff.. you know what I'm saying? there's another stage of freedom beyond what some would call right. You're right that it's a nice little amp. You're right that it MAY not eat tubes. But me and the people I have ball gagged in the basement need choice. Yours Truly Marqee de Twang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleetlin49 Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 Steven: How do you know the "straight-talk advice" I was looking for? Are you in my head? Can you read my thoughts? What? DAMMIT!!!! NOOOO!!!!!! Get out of my head, Get out, Get OUT, GET OUT! I DON"T want you in here, get out, AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! Where is my aluminum foil helmet at?? I need it now........ You have to be some pro government, "let them deal with all aspects of my life so I don't have to" liberal person. A lamb looking for safety and the accepted norm. Looking at your Montreal, "New France" bit, you must also hate the government at the same time. Seeing as you want to succeed from your own country, you also don't like your government. Or probably any government. you are one confused fella aren't you? a paradox that no ne cares to understand. sheesh, stop refering to me in your posts, you don't know me or what I want. Although, with all your posts we sure have gotten to know you! I like that "mod every v3 I play on" ( a little liberty was taken, lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Lister Posted June 12, 2008 Author Share Posted June 12, 2008 I like that "mod every v3 I play on" ( a little liberty was taken' date=' lol)[/quote'] I like it and his new avatar -- told him so and asked if I could use it too -- but I guess not. Fleetlin49 -- I apologize to you. Obviously, I do/did not know your thoughts. Amongst the larger group of new/prospective owners reading these threads, there are no doubt others just like you who are looking at a VJr. solely as a modding platform. Great -- it is unquestionably a good, inexpensive choice. And these latest V3 discussions have now established the other side too. Other members have already spoken up to say Steven's right, it is terrific stock. May we not conclude why spend the time/money to mod it when a pedal(s) will fill in any tone we want? My point, my only point, is there is ample reason to conclude either way -- and there is room here on this forum for all of us to discuss both points of view. If you sped read past that in those posts then you obviously have no realistic ideas about me either. Seriously, welcome to the V3 owners' club -- and ENJOY your new V3 any way you like it! Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby, I'm going to play on:-" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleetlin49 Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 I got your point, I think EVERYONE got your point ! You repeated your point many, MANY times! I didn't speed read past anything though. Actually, I read everything a couple of times. If all you care about is people saying your right and agreeing with your amp "philosophy", then good for you. You got what you wanted. Just stop pushing your amp "philospophy" into threads it doesn't belong in. Remember the forum rule of thumb; read, reread, maybe even read a third time and then reply with something pertaining to the SUBJECT. I.E. if someone asks about modding his amp, don't tell him not to mod his amp. And thanks to everyone who has welcomed me to the forum. Your all great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Lister Posted June 14, 2008 Author Share Posted June 14, 2008 Just stop pushing your amp "philospophy" into threads it doesn't belong in.Good ol' King's English fair translation of your enquiry...' date=' no? I'm glad you found what you were looking for from others, so it's yet another win-win, right? Besides, stick around here long and you won't believe how far astray most threads lead from just about every topic posted -- some are misreads (like mine) others are just, well, you know how it is. (Wait a sec..., this is my topic thread about V3 changes..., why is it exactly that you are in here just to be dis'in me?) Bottom line is that if the VJr. debate is going to serve the most good, then all amp "philosophies" need to receive equal respect. Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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