Playing live and hearing loss

[vanessa]

 

A Radio Shack digital noise indicator costs about 40. US $ in my area . Is this reasonable ? Do you know any other brands ? Thanks...

[Notes_Norton]

<...>

Don't buy in to the "fact" that ALL hearing loss is permanent........it CAN gradually come back' date=' to a large degree, with some restraint on the exposure level.

 

Either that...or i'm a complete freak of nature(which wouldn't surprise me at all).[/quote']

 

Not a complete freak of nature, but a lucky exception to the rule.

 

There are also about one in a billion or so that reasonably loud music (100db or so) doesn't seem to hurt (don't gamble on it, the odds are better at playing the lottery once and winning)

 

The US Army and Navy (among others) have spent millions of dollars trying to figure out how to revers noise induced hearing damage and have had no success at all. They have found that if you have a magnesium deficiency you become more susceptible to the damage (they speak in reference to gunshot noise).

 

There are plenty of websites to visit to monitor the latest research. I do so because even though my damage is considered mild, I'd like to get it all back

 

Notes

[JEPI]

Interesting topic and timely in my case. I have a Dr. appointment next week to check my hearing, due to the wife having to repeat 50% of what she says to me. I've noticed that I listen to the TV pretty loud as well. We'll see what the Doc says. On stage thru the 70's, I used one "full" plug in whichever ear was closest to the drummer and in the other just put the plug half way in. I could hear my vocals perfectly and I could hear an acceptable balance of the instruments. (or at least I thought I could) lol...... I'm curious what the Doc will say though................J

[charlie brown]

My first experience, in what "excessive" volume was all about, was from an incident that occured not long after we took

delivery of 6 Vox Super Beatle Amps, and an Altec Lansing "Voice of the Theater" PA, in the summer of 1969. My Mom

had "co-signed" the loan (brave, loving and trusting soul that she was), and had come up the the town we were playing

in, the first night with our new equipment. She stayed about 3 numbers, and then I saw her abrubtly and quickly get up

and leave. When I got up, the next morning, I asked her "why did you leave so soon/fast?" She said she "HAD TO," that

the volume concusion was so intense, that it was interferring with the rhythm of her heart and she felt she couldn't breath.

She was not one to overstate things, so..the next night (we had a 2 night stand at the venue), during a sound check, I

went out front, about where she was standing, and had the band do a couple of the same songs, and quickly discoverd,

for myself, exactly what she was talking about. It was my first (real) introduction, to the sonic "Cone," and how it peaks

at a certain point, quite a ways out front of the stage! Having been in the band, and on stage, all the time...I had really never thought much about how loud we must have been "out there!" But, it sure was an eye opener, for me, then. And, we didn't have the "Beatle" amps anywhere near "full up!" My next, and very painful (hearing wise) experience was when I saw Deep Purple, the first time "live" at the field house, at Wichita State University. This was the days before "assigned seating," and we always went as close to the stage as we could get, to watch the players. That night, was no different, as we were "crushed" right up against the stage, but close to the PA columns on the right side, and right in front of Richie Blackmore's twin Marshall Major (200 watts each) Stacks. He came out, raked his hand across the dials, until everything was "full up," and Rocked the house!

That was great and all, but I had a lot of ringing in my ears, for at least a day. I can only imagine, what the folks out at the "Cone" apex were experiencing. So, musicians that play that loud (for whatever reason???) are not only damaging their own hearing, but those of their "fans" / audience, too! Doesn't seem to bother them, in the slightest, either...LOL! When I was last in Los Angeles, I used to go to a little "Jazz Club" in Little Tokyo, that had "Rock Nights" 3 nights a week, and Jazz the other 4.

On one such "Rock Night," the first of 5 bands, showed up, with 2 Marshall (100 watt) Staciks, and a Ampeg Bass amp, with the 8X10 speaker cabinet. This is in a club, that is 20 feet wide, by 40 feet long (including the bar area). They set the volume level for the evening, apparently, because every other band decided they needed to be just as loud! And LPDeluxe is Right...you couldn't distinguish ANY thing! Least of all the vocals...which, in all honesty, was mostly that gutterall screaming, anyway. Never really understood that...(I'm OLD, I grew up on The Beatles, Byrds, CSNY, and vocal groups with 2-4 part harmonies) Loved Cream and Hendrix, but you could still hear everything, even with their over the top volume...Deep Purple, too!

 

Botton line..Reasonably Loud is good, that's "Rock & Roll, But...INSANELY loud is totally conterproductive, for everyone concerned, IMHO..."Too Old," or not! ;>)

 

CB

[charlie brown]

Sorry, for the odd spacing...I have NO IDEA why, it does that! And, it's inconsistant, too...sometimes it does it,

other times, not at all!

 

CB

[Notes_Norton]

Super-Beatle Amps and Voice of the Theater speaker cabinets. Take me back!!!!! Oh, and add 435 pound Hammond B3 organs, spring reverb and echo-plex tape delay units.

 

It's funny that the general public (and musicians) aren't very aware of this. I've been to concerts with my ear plugs in and seen parents with carrying sized children stand right in front of the speakers. I'm sure they would not intentionally damage their infant's hearing even though they might take a chance on their own.

 

And what about the aerobics room of your local "health club"? Is ear damaging music actually considered healthy for the ears?

 

And I won't even go into a disco, even with my 25s because most of them blast out at 120db or more.

 

Mother told me if I listened to loud music, I'd go deaf. But I never believed her, after all, I didn't go blind :)

 

Insights and incites by Notes

[charlie brown]

Super-Beatle Amps and Voice of the Theater speaker cabinets. Take me back!!!!! Oh' date=' and add 435 pound Hammond B3 organs, spring reverb and echo-plex tape delay units.[/quote']

 

Yeah, Bob...we had the Hammond Organ, too...only it was a full cabinet C-3 and two (tall) Leslies.

At least, with the Super Beatles, we could roll them, where ever we needed them to be. Ever try to lift

a C-3 over an outside chain link fence, because you couldn't get it through the T-type entrance?! LOL! "Those

were the days, my friend...we thought they'd never end"...(Mary Hopkin).

 

CB

[Notes_Norton]

<...>Ever try to lift

a C-3 over an outside chain link fence' date=' because you couldn't get it through the T-type entrance?! LOL! <...>CB [/quote']

 

Can't say as I've had that particular pleasure.

 

I did have to help bring a B-3 up a long, steep, outdoor staircase with a 90degree bend in the middle. We had to lift it higher than the handrails to make the bend. Fortunately I was on the upstairs side of the beast.

 

BTW, he had 2 Leslies, too.

 

That particular day, I thought the organist's old red and black Farfisa didn't sound so bad after all.

 

 

Nobody had to help me with my gear, two saxophones, a flute, and a microphone. Of course, that left me with empty hands to help everybody else in the band, which of course was only fair.

 

BTW, the guitaist had a Sherri at the time, and when we passed Kalamazoo, we toured the plant.

 

---------

 

And those Voice of the Theater speakers were heavy and huge. My current PA speakers Carvin LM15s not only sound better but only weigh about 32 pounds each!

 

 

Before I got these, I tried Mackie, EON, Peavey, Samson, Nady, and a few other brands. These speakers blew everything else away except for the E-V ZX 4 (and they cost twice as much and 45 pounds and sounded only slightly better).

 

---------

 

And yes CB, those were the days. Traveling all over the USA with a group of my buddies. Playing 2 weeks to a month in swinging night spots. (That was before Discos so all the young people showed up.) Nothing computer assisted or too high tech. We just played our hearts out, chased the women, got paid, and moved to the next town.

 

Seems like a dream to me know (Paul Simon)

 

Notes

[Suho]

Hearing loss is not all permanent in theory, but in practice it generally works out that way. Our ears do repair themselves, but the process is very slow, especially considering how quickly you can damage them. Now, take damaged ears that are slowly repairing themselves, but you don't remove the offending environment or behavior (be it riveting airplanes or blasting Marshall stacks), and you are counteracting any healing that your body is doing and likely doing more damage on top of that. And, there is some natural high frequency loss that occurs as we age, more so in men than women.

 

I learned about this the hard way, but the volume can be addictive. No one likes listening to a song on merely audible volume when a kicking/rocking tune comes on the radio. You HAVE to turn it up. And then you have started to desensitize the sensitive little nerve hairs in your ears, and after a while that volume you cranked it to for that one great song becomes a comfortable listening volume... only to be cranked the next time a great song comes on, and the cycle gets worse. [after the rush that accompanies the loud song, quieter songs seem like going through withdrawal](*,)

[charlie brown]

"Desensitised" indeed. After playing a lot (much the same, as described by Bob "Notes" Norton), I took a 30+ year hiatus!

(Various reasons) But, when decided to start playing again, I visited one of my old bandmates, who still happens to be

one of my best friends, and he had a "rehearsal studio" in back of his business. One night, he said..."Charlie, go ahead and

plug into that amp over there (an Ampeg VT-22), and "rip it up!" I plugged in, made the mistake of letting Him turn on the

volume (to 1/4 of the volume we USED to routinely play at), and could NOT believe, that we EVER played THAT LOUD!

He laughed so hard, I thought he'd croke! So, my ears had repaired themselves (prior to that incident, anyway), and I

have, even out doors, rarely been over 1/2 the volume that we used to do! In fact, if I have ANY trouble hearing the vocals,

we turn down!! That's not to say we play "supper club" quiet, by any means. But, just a good, reasonable, volume...which,

by "ear health" standards is, I'm sure, still too loud.

I mentioned earlier, the small club, and the large amps, used by the bands...when I told one fellow that all he needed (at most) was a Fender Deluxe Reverb, or "Blues Junior," for That venue, he looked at me as if I had lost my mind! LOL! So, some of it IS Hubris of Youth! ;>)

 

CB

[Dave]

I spent 20 years from 1965 until 1985 playing in cover bands with 200 watt Peavys and 4x12 cabs.

 

Stage volume and headphone volume are a lot like turning the hot water in the shower up a little at a time as you get used to it. If you stepped into the shower at the level that you normally end with, you'd jump like a scalded cat. Headphones can cause you to go deaf. Rush Limbaugh is a case in point. He had Cochlear (sp?) implants a couple of years ago from years of wearing headphones in his daily broadcast (and taking narcotic pain relievers).

 

I also have hearing loss in both ears. The graphs show that my left ear has high end loss and the right one has low end loss. Both together give me roughly a normal frequency range with a total DB level loss. I have difficulty hearing people who talk softly unless the environment is quiet and difficulty hearing normal conversation in a loud environment. I miss words here and there.

 

To preserve your hearing, you have to get the sound off the stage and into the PA. The drummer sets the volume level. If you put too much monitor behind the drummer, the drummer plays louder. When the drummer plays louder, everyone turns up. Pretty soon, it's way too loud and no one can hear anything distinctly.

 

In the latter years of our playing, we wised up and controlled the stage volume. Once we did that, the music became a joy to play. I could hear the bass player. the vocals, and the keyboardist. We became tighter and were able to work together to bring the accents together and the audience appreciated the difference. The difference was that we graduated from a couple of 4x12 column speakers and no monitors, to a stack of large PA cabs about 8 feet high on each side of the stage and good wedge monitors for everybody.

 

What does the monitor do? Someone asked that question early in the thread. A wedge or hot spot monitor is primarily designated to bring the vocals back to the singer. It should be placed in front of the singer so that the singer's head is on a center axis to the speaker. The monitor provides feedback so that you hear your own voice, allowing your brain to adjust the vocals and keep you on key. Without monitors, you can sing off key and not be aware of it. Monitors are also used to bring the music to the other side of the stage or to the drummer. Modern PA boards allow "groups" of channels to be built so that you have a group containing the audio mix that different people want to hear in their monitors. Then you "send" that signal to the monitor channel for a specific musician or musicians who want to hear that mix. The drummer might want to hear the vocals, lead guitar, keyboard, and a little bass. The lead player who doesn't sing might want to hear the keyboard and other instruments that are on the other side of the stage as well as the vocal mix. It's common to have instrument monitors on the side and vocal monitors facing a singer. Sometimes a lead singer wants several monitors placed where he or she can hear monitors when dancing around the stage A well designed monitor system can make a lot of difference in your overall sound.

[antwhi2001]

Excellent advice Dave, but can you speak up? We can't hear at the back.....

[ebb]

All of last year my left ear was a complete write-off. I couldn't hear people talking in quiet room using only the left and had difficulty using both in any sort of noisy environment. It's a lot better now thank god.

 

That was from bad positioning at several concerts, but i will not let that happen again.

BTW I'm 18

 

Thanks for the link Notes

[Suho]

Yeah,

I may have shared this before, but here goes again...

 

I had been to one or two really loud concerts when I was in my teens (I think Whitesnake was one of them). I thought it was part of the concert deal to temporarily be partially deafened for a few hours. At age 16, I decided to jam one night with the guy who worked in the meat dept. (Nick) at the supermarket I bagged groceries for. He was about twice my age then, and his metal band was without a bassist at the time. I gladly stepped in.

 

I jammed with them in a practice room maybe 15' by 20' (just a rough guess), with huge amps and stacks for bass and both guitars, and a double bass drummer/singer. Halfway through the jams, when we stopped playing, I was literally screaming at Nick only two feet away, and he to me, and neither of us could hear much. Of course, we kept playing and turned it up.

 

At the end of that night, I was actually deaf for all practical purposes. I stumbled to a pay phone with my bass and called home for a ride. I never knew until someone showed up if anyone picked up my phone call, because I just started repeating "Hi, this is Christopher, I am done practicing and can't hear you so I hope you can come get me."

 

My hearing started to come back the next day, but I have worn earplugs ever since to practices, gigs, concerts, danceclubs, etc. I get some snickers from some, but my hearing is still normal (got it tested about 2 years ago when I had an ear infection that plugged up my ear for a month). I do have occasional tinitus though. Notes was right, hearing is your most important tool as a musician (we aren't all Beethoven).