TWANG Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 And why it's not bad. First off the tuners. I could show you a pic, but you've all seen them. Rather sloppy mechanism, open geared tuner with a chromed cover that is held on by the screws on the back. The reason the Saga is bad is not because the neck wood, maple, is bad. Or because the fingerboard wood, rosewood, is bad. It's because only cheap tuners have opposite corner screw holes and when you replace them, you have to leave a hole. Yes, the nut is plastic. Hard to get out, too. They use a pretty tough glue. Expect to take a few small splinters of wood out with it. The fretwork is bad. But how bad, and where, and why? Typically on 25 1/2" scale guitars, of any manufacture, there are two weak points. They appear at the same places on most of them, to varying degrees. At the Low E and A strings from about the 2nd fret to the 6th.. and on the High E and B strings, from about the 12th fret to the 17th. This is logical. You tend to have more vibration on the thicker strings at the top of the neck.. comparing it to the thinner strings..so that's where small differences show up most often. I've done a lot of teles and strats.. cheap, and not cheap.. and invariably this is where I find the fret problems. You tend to want your high strings to play as close as possible up there where the frets are close together, so accuracy there is expected to be somewhat problematical. On this Saga, those are the places where I had to do some fretwork. It had four frets, low e and a, and two frets, high e and b, which when optimally set up, made a little noise. Is that where the Saga is bad.. or where it is good? After all, there was barely any noise. Just enough that when I cranked the treble up and listened, I could hear it. Saga generally is like that. Pretty well done, with a few places where it wouldn't meet pro approval. The next place this Saga is bad. The neck is set just a tick low into the pocket. This leaves the bridge saddle height adjustment screws sticking way up on the saddles. It's a pain in the neck, but I'll pull those one by one and remove enough so that when the guitar is properly set up, they will be flat on top of the saddle. Letting you palm mute without any worry or discomfort. Every tele or strat I've ever seen has had at least a little of those screws sticking up. When we get to the body of the Saga, our first criticism is of the wood. Basswood has gotten more popular for guitars in the last ten years or better for two reasons. First there's more and it's not as expensive. And secondly because there have been success with consumers, that is, there are pro players using basswood body guitars. The Saga basswood is not top quality. It often is three or four pieces. This one was two pieces. and well matched, while others are not so well matched for grain similarity. It's a hardwood. It's a tonewood. It has a long history of instrument use. It's acceptable if not top flight. It's a tad soft compared to others. If you remove screws several times you may have to bolster that holes gripping strength a bit. Something that can happen in the best of woods. Tone is not a great brag here. With a lower end guitar you are NEVER going to have a great brag in that regard. You rely instead on decent proper set up, and electronic consideration. The bridge saddles are not expensive. they are old style, round, made to do the job, and could stand replacing for sure. I don't. It keeps the price down, and I just tell people.. look for better saddles along with better tuners. The bridge plate is fine. heavy. nicely chromed. and well made. So is the rest of the guitar. It meets the price point, and gives you what any reasonable person would expect. The pickups are low output. Under 6Kohms, as low as 5.3K. Not a modern tone, but comparable to Fenders original spec. The back is contoured.. which I like a lot. Les Pauls would do well to give us at least one model with that feature. What is bad about the Saga then? Well, the tuners, the nut, the bridge saddles. Otherwise, in my experience, they hold up well, even surpassing, many guitars at a higher price point. What you get from a Saga kit is another thing.. first it's fun, and second it can suck if you aren't very good at it. Well done, a beginner can play this guitar and keep it for several years.. even longer.. and only have to change things when his taste changes and becomes more demanding. Like swapping the pups. It's a great backup guitar.. you can gig with this, and it sounds and plays easily good enough. It has the basic tele sounds.. The neck pickup is bad. I put a strat pup in the neck. Because the Saga neck pup stinks to high heaven. Underpowered and you often can't even hear the high e string with it. I've got a collection of these I'll use to make a lap steel or zither or some other weird thing. typically ebayed at around a hundred bucks, it's not a bad investment at all. And fun to do if you like that sort of thing. They are not junk. They are functional guitars at a low price which serve. the truss rods work fine, by the way. Haven't had a bad one so far. This is not a sales pitch. It's a report. This is my opinion of this model. I prefer the teles to the strats very much. And also to the prs and gibson models they make. It's a deal for the right person. It's a really great way to get into learning how to work on guitars. You have the simplest design.. you have the least expensive parts.. all it takes is some common sense, patience, research and a few simple tools. To just assemble the kit.. even less. That's their market. and they meet it's needs. To compare them to the best is to miss the point entirely. TWANG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWANG Posted February 1, 2009 Author Share Posted February 1, 2009 NOTE the holes didn't line up perfectly when I put the new tuners in. I KNOW that. I didn't want to redrill them. but I probably will. when you swap tuners, sometimes this works out right. other times you have to fill the hole and redrill it. But the original hole is covered by the new tuner. On this one, I just put them in. TWANG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canine Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 You mention the Saga kits, I saw a few but I hate the way that neck pocket is shaped in the back, looks funky. I've been looking at Warmoth very closely lately, but the prices are real high, and that "showcase" thing they have seems to be entirely Fender-oriented. So, I'll keep looking... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animalfarm Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 TWANG -thank you for the report, as I am considering building a SAGA LC-10 Les Paul copy. I posted same in "Raven West" post, would rather have one made of Padouk, but don't have a woodshop or know how to make a guitar neck, would love to know, though. your input is greatly appreciated as I can learn from someone who has ACTUALLY "gone before me"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWANG Posted February 1, 2009 Author Share Posted February 1, 2009 All the sagas I've seen are the same at the back of the neck pocket as all the other teles. I guess I don't see what you're looking at! AnimalFarm, email me, and I'll go through it with you. I hope you can wait until tuesday though. *L* I think I'm gonna be busy 'till then. I've built one of the bolt on les pauls. They have better tuners, by the way. don't replace them unless they don't work. Test that box switch asap. I also recommend test assembly. Neck strings tuners bridge tail. Often the holes through the body that go into the neck are too tight. If you put them in and they grip really hard then the neck can't be drawn tightly into the pocket. I modify those so that there's barely any grip at all, that way tightening the screw in will still draw the neck up tight, the way you want it. and there are a bunch of little details that can make a difference.. like no finish in the neck pocket.. nice and smooth wood is all you want. and on the back of the neck, as well. good wood to wood contact is what you want. Also, the sealer.. I can give you a tip or two on that. Etc. coleman_patrirck@hotmail.com glad to help. TWANG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animalfarm Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Twang, thanks. I'll respond in the near future, depends on my workload, too. We can all LEARN FROM EACH OTHER!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWANG Posted February 1, 2009 Author Share Posted February 1, 2009 Yep. and now I'm out for the day! TWANG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
custer Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I can personaly recomend the Carvin kits. The are Excellent, you won't be disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarxBros Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 blah blah blah...cheap guitar junk...blah blah blah...MORE cheap guitar junk.....Ad nauseam Next you'll want to enlighten us on Montgomery Ward guitars pros and cons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animalfarm Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 didn't know about carvin kits. Montgomery Ward sold off their francise to Kmart, ya know. I bought this one at "Siamese Twins - r - Us": Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Next you'll want to enlighten us on Montgomery Ward guitars pros and cons. Marx, you just kill me with your comments! Reading your posts is a course in Negativity 101. Building a guitar, good or bad, is an excellent way to learn and improve many skills. Even if the guitar turns out to be unplayable at first, it is still a good experience for the novice or for the expert level builder. There are people on the tdpri.com forum building Telecasters and Strats using everything from high level pine and fir to ash, alder, korina and mahogany. These people are pioneers in their own right. And, think about it, the result is an American made guitar, built with pride by Americans in the U.S.A. from home grown materials. What's bad about that? I would imagine that Leo Fender started out the same way (building his first guitar). And don't forget about our friend Les. What would you have said if he had been able to post pictures of his first electric built from a railroad tie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitmore Willy Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 TWANG, Thanks for the report. At least you have the tools and knowledge to determine and resolve the problems you described. I feel for the people that buy such kits and do not have your experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rock Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Did someone built a WD kit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notes_Norton Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Thanks Twang. Although I will probably never build a guitar, I enjoy learning about it and your posts like this helps me understand the "why's and wherefore's" of the guitar itself. Notes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animalfarm Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Marx' date=' you just kill me with your comments! Reading your posts is a course in Negativity 101. Building a guitar, good or bad, is an excellent way to learn and improve many skills. Even if the guitar turns out to be unplayable at first, it is still a good experience for the novice or for the expert level builder. There are people on the tdpri.com forum building Telecasters and Strats using everything from high level pine and fir to ash, alder, korina and mahogany. These people are pioneers in their own right. And, think about it, the result is an American made guitar, built with pride by Americans in the U.S.A. from home grown materials. What's bad about that? I would imagine that Leo Fender started out the same way (building his first guitar). And don't forget about our friend Les. What would you have said if he had been able to post pictures of his first electric built from a railroad tie? [/quote'] Whamma, Whamma, SLAMMA, jamma! Thank you for rising to the defense of "us" noobified, guitar-builder-wannabe, ain't got no bizness dreamin' idiots! I WILL try my hand at entry-level luthiermanship (new word?). It may look like T-Rex Coprolites, and play the same, but I will at least know how to build a cr@ppy guitar if someone places an order for such. Maybe even get better at it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWANG Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 The saga tele kit is something I'd recommend to anyone who wants to try his hand at it. Even with much or any experience, the actual kit built stock following instructions is pretty nice. with a few tweaks a definate keeper in the 'I love my beater category'. The WD kits I've built quite a few. And they are much better than squiers,etc., in that price range. All Part bodys and necks are also very nice. True, with any of these, experience and knoledge can lead to greater success. I've had WD strats and teles and p/j basses. You can take them into the store and start comparing.. and you'll cruise right by the low to mid range guitars and into the 700.00 and above models, even beating some of them. With the right hardware, beyond that. It was good enough for les paul.. learning about guitars and amps.. and it's good enough for us, too. Marx was probably the guy who turned less down years ago, which explains why he's in here with his giant sack of sour grapes. Sorry marx. was gonna ignore you,but you just keep asking for it. Carvin kits get good reviews pretty consistently.. a little pricey. Stewmac makes some nice kits, too. I am too buzzed to continue. Be positive. Love guitars. TWANG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarxBros Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 It was good enough for les paul.. learning about guitars and amps.. and it's good enough for us' date=' too. Marx was probably the guy who turned less down years ago, which explains why he's in here with his giant sack of sour grapes. Sorry marx. was gonna ignore you,but you just keep asking for it. TWANG[/quote']I've talked to Les on several occasions, last time was many years ago which was at a dedication of a Solid Gold Mc Donalds of all things which had a statue of him in it. Les will say certain thnings, but it's obvious to me the LP would have been made by Gibson with or without him, it just would've had a different name on it. He's given more credit than he actually deserves for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Nelson Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 I've talked to Les on several occasions' date=' last time was many years ago which was at a dedication of a Solid Gold Mc Donalds of all things which had a statue of him in it. Les will say certain thnings, but it's obvious to me the LP would have been made by Gibson with or without him, it just would've had a different name on it. He's given more credit than he actually deserves for it.[/quote'] Forget it, Marxy..Twang owns crap...he sells crap and he promotes crap so crap is all he knows..he's been laughed out of the newsgroups and every other forum he's ever posted and and he's ended up he where he can impress the kids and ignorant....you can buy those Saga kits at guitar shows for eighty bucks...and it still isn't worth it...and you already know how I feel about Lester Polfus ..snake oil dealer and con man...and Twing hasn't clue one about Les Paul or any of the history..Twing likes to be a big shot...he's clueless and obviously they didn't find his brain even when they went looking for it... Mr.Nelson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWANG Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 "it was good enough for les paul.. learning about guitars and amps". TWANG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Nelson Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 "it was good enough for les paul.. learning about guitars and amps". TWANG What??? Les Paul learned using a pile of Chinese garbage??? Bad news Twing, when you emptied your colon your brains went too...sheesh...what a maroon !!! Look at that pile of crap parts...be serious..again, Twing owns some crap so it's the greatest thing since sliced bread...If your funds are limited, there's no shame in that but there is shame in this ridiculous pretzel logic of yours to promote the cheap crap you own and sell...and hopefully that will soon come to an end here...I know guitars..no brag, just fact...Saga kits are cheap junk for kids to fool around at their very best..if that's what you got, that's what you got...but be real...it's so dishonest..geeez Mr.Nelson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarxBros Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 This looks like a 2 years old did the work. I didn't know you were that old. I shouldn't have said that, sorry...it's not fair to all the 2 year olds out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWANG Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 You can all buy a pawn shop guitar.. a saga kit.. anyone of those department store guitars.. and have a lot of fun and learn a lot about guitars.. and even wind up with a nice playable good sounding and looking guitar. Your efforts wont put you, after one try, in any expert range. But the confidence knowledge gives you is a great thing to have. And the fun you'll have, even with a mistake, is real fun. I like the saga tele kit as a first kit. I like the price. The strengths and weaknesses are well balanced. I wouldn't be surpised if many of you didn't get one. build it.. and like the experience and the result so much that you tried your hand at least at a making a body of your own. Any high school kid with a good relationship to his shop teacher would be able to do this. And make his own design. From there, you can buy any one of several well made very good quality necks, from several companys, and go even further if you have a degree of success with the body you make. Leos tele is a study in simplicity. Functional simplicity. and really, all you need are the neck pocket and pup/control routes.. all the rest can be to your own tastes. which pups, what body shape, which places for contours..all can be varied by just getting the neck route correct to start with. anyone of the many diagrams, not even schematics!, on the web can get you through the electronics with just a pencil soldering iron and a little practice. The best violinists, and others, virtuosos, in the world have a very good understanding of their instrument. They love to talk about them, and compare them. They take thier love for music and spread it to an appreciation for thier instrument, for others instruments, for all instruments.. and to the people who play them. For all their disdain of the concert dillitante, there is tremendous appreciation for the music lovers who support them. And that includes encouragement and support for young musicians in every aspect they themselves enjoy. And that's who we should be in here. We should proudly accept a higher standard, not only as regards instrument construction, but for the journey of understanding, of KNOWING music as human beings in a complete way. And this forum ought to be about that. About a young player who doesn't know exactly what a good set up entails.. or an older player who is still looking to increase his knowledge. and certainly it ought to be mostly about people sharing thier interest, their appreciation, and celebrating the really unique opportunity that the internet and Epiphone have afforded us all. By the way. Les Pauls first attempts in electronics, etc., were with what all of us would think of as very primitive. Things like wire radios. Crank up phonographs. etc. All of humanity has humble beginnings. And no human should put himself above those beginnings. TWANG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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