Bit the bullet, bought a ToneRite....

[dhanners623]

I should add there is more sustain, too -- even from strings that are two weeks old and have two two-hour gigs on them.

[Red 333]

OK' date=' here's the big "reveal"....

 

 

The short verdict: It worked. It worked really well.

 

... To me, a guitar's sound generally falls into one of two categories: Sounds I Like, and Sounds I Don't Like. I liked the Texan beforehand, but now I like it a lot more...I'm happy with the results. The effect was certainly a lot more than what you'd get by plopping the guitar in front of a stereo speaker, as some have suggested. The guitar has opened up quite a bit. There's more "oomph" to the notes, more resonance. And while I would not describe its pre-ToneRite sound as muddy -- there was [i']some[/i] definition in the notes -- now there is a lot more definition.

 

So color me "sold." I may put the device on longer (the instructions recommend a couple of initial 96-hour treatments) but I'm going to stop typing and go play the guitar.

 

That's great to know. I'm glad you're satisfied with the result. Yours is another voice in the growing chorus of impressed users whose opinions and experience I respect. Make sure you tell the folks on the Gibson forum, too (where, naysayers, many have already used ToneRite to their satisfaction).

 

You've pushed me over the edge; I think I'm going to get one. I've got at least a dozen acoustics, so if it works on one or two of them, I'll consider it money well spent. Plus, it'll save me from having to listen to white noise or music or whatever incessantly should I put all those guitars on stands in front of the stero speakers for days.

 

By the way, to those who suggest putting the guitar in front of speakers, consider this: most people these days don't have speakers big enough to stick a guitar in front of, or amplifers powerful enough to motivate them to sounboard-vibrating volume, even if either was capable of producing a wide enough frequency spectrum. After the emergence of the MP3 format and its players, diminutive and low power (and compartively low fidelity) micro systems and components have been dominant. Most people either have one of those, or worse, their sound system is built onto the TV, is a self-powered soundbar, or consists of powered speakers hooked up to a computer. I can hardly remember the last time I walked into someone's house (besides mine) and saw a huge stack of components and floor standing tower speakers, the kind of rig I would identify as a "stereo system." ToneRite may be the only option to those with a newer and smaller system.

 

Dhanners, I am agog at the paper models. They are so cool, detailed, and so obviously well made. I would have had no idea of their scale or what they were made of if you hadn't told us. How long does it take you to build one?

 

If you and Fenchie start a card modeling forum, I will lurk.

 

Red 333

[Zork]

Now give it another 72 hours just to smooth and feather. I knew it would work on that newer spruce. It also works the braces and kerfing, etc. So it is not just for completely solid wood guitars.

 

Thanks!

[Rockanrolla]

Thanks for the review Dave, I think I may get one too for my new Masterbilts, I'd always thought about it, but now youve answered all of my questions.

Many thanks.

[dhanners623]

 

Dhanners' date=' I am agog at the paper models. They are so cool, detailed, and so obviously well made. I would have had no idea of their scale or what they were made of if you hadn't told us. How long does it take you to build one?

 

If you and Fenchie start a card modeling forum, I will lurk.

 

Red 333[/quote']

 

Thanks for the kind words. The card models take various amounts of time to build, depending on the complexity and how anal I want to get about the detail. I can usually finish one in a week or two, but the shuttle stack took a couple of months.

 

There's a guy over at papermodelers.com who just finished a 1/32nd-scale PBJ-1H Mitchell (the naval version of the B-25) that he started in August, and he pulled out all the stops. He packed detail into it like you wouldn't believe; the build thread runs 127 pages. If it was in his technical drawings and pilot handbooks, he put it in his model, and all out of paper.

 

Not sure if you have to be a member to see the photos, but the finished product is here:

http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/aviation/4604-orlik-pbj-1h-mitchell-127.html

 

And yeah, the biggest speaker we have in the house is not very big, so putting the guitar in front of it would not have had much of an effect.

[peeper]

Nice models, dorky enough for me!=d>

[Red 333]

Thanks for the kind words. The card models take various amounts of time to build' date=' depending on the complexity and how anal I want to get about the detail. I can usually finish one in a week or two, but the shuttle stack took a couple of months.

 

There's a guy over at papermodelers.com who just finished a 1/32nd-scale PBJ-1H Mitchell (the naval version of the B-25) that he started in August, and he pulled out all the stops. He packed detail into it like you wouldn't believe; the build thread runs 127 pages. If it was in his technical drawings and pilot handbooks, he put it in his model, and all out of paper.

 

[/quote']

 

THAT's paper, too.

 

I guess I have to accept a new paradigm.

 

Very cool.

 

Red 333

[frenchie1281734003]

Bl***y hell!!! I find it hard, just to write on paper, let alone turn out models like that. Origami has certainly come on a bit since my day!

 

I think I might have to give this a go.

 

Thanks for that Dave.

[abbeyroadman]

Thank you for the update Dhanners - I trust your judgment about the differences that you are hearing. Now I wonder if the improved sound is permanent, or will the wood simply adjust back to its' original condition, and the sound accordingly. That is, is this an accelerated, but short-term aging process, or has the wood been permanently altered?

 

Regards,

[freak show]

[carverman]

Well' date=' I don't see any reason why it should be impossible to accelerate the aging process of a guitar. I once read an interview with Neil Young's guitar tech, and he too has some sort of trick, although he didn't reveal what it is...

 

[/quote']

 

You mean Larry Cragg?... here is an example..

http://www.pisotones.com/Alfonso/OldBlack/OldBlack_En.htm

 

IMO..there is NO substitute for time and and normal playing. Guitar wood and nitro cellulose will

age naturally and if it's built right, the sound may be a bit better as well.

 

here's some info on the aging process of finishes..

http://www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/finishes.htm

[frenchie1281734003]

Well' date=' I don't see any reason why it should be impossible to accelerate the aging process of a guitar. I once read an interview with Neil Young's guitar tech, and he too has some sort of trick, although he didn't reveal what it is...

 

And by the way: Beautiful models!

 

 

[/quote']

 

Yamaha are doing a similar job on their Handcrafted 26/36 models, and they claim the ageing process is permanent.

[abbeyroadman]

For clarification, by "aging" I meant tonal qualities from years of playing vibration, not cosmetic wear and tear as evidence by the Neil Young replica (which does look great) from one of the previous replies. Regarding Neil, I believe he has been using a very old Martin acoustic guitar previously owned by Hank Williams, Sr. - perhaps because of it's age-related tonal qualities?

 

Regards,

[dhanners623]

Stuck the ToneRite on one of my other guitars tonight; we'll see what impact, if any, it has on the instrument. It is a StewMac mahogany B&S kit dreadnought built for me in late 2005 by a guy I met in Browerville, Minn. Met him at a friend's guitar get-together and he had one he had built and I thought, "Gee, I'd like a nice 'campfire' guitar so maybe he'll build me one." Even though I can't remember the last time I played around a campfire.

 

Anyway, to make a long story short, I had him make a few tweaks to the standard-issue build. For one, I had him shape the neck to the pre-war Martin "V" shape, which I really like. Also had him build it without any dot position markers on the fretboard (just on the edges) and I supplied the tuners and a Greven Tor-Tis pickguard, although earlier this year I switched out the pickguard with a "Dalmation" 'guard with material I bought from Collings.

 

It ain't the prettiest guitar in the world, but it has a nice vintage vibe:

 

Anyway, the thing has beautiful tone and is a true banjo-killer, and it is impolite to talk about price but let's just say I didn't have to pay him much more than the price of the kit. He said he was still learning and felt bad charging me. It was the third guitar the guy built, and I have no idea what magic he worked on it, but it is a great guitar. I used it on nine of the 12 songs on my CD.

 

You can hear the guitar here:

[freak show]

:)

[carverman]

For clarification' date=' by "aging" I meant tonal qualities from years of playing vibration, not cosmetic wear and tear as evidence by the Neil Young replica (which does look great) from one of the previous replies. Regarding Neil, I believe he has been using a very old Martin acoustic guitar previously owned by Hank Williams, Sr. - perhaps because of it's age-related tonal qualities?

 

Regards,[/quote']

 

Well there is two schools of thought on aging..guitars that is..

one is the beat up-well-worn-patina of something like "old black",

or even Willie Nelson's "Trigger" with the hole picked into the top.

(You think that if he loves this old guitar so much, he would have invested in a pickguard for it long ago?).

..and the other

is natural aging of the wood itself from exposure to sunlight, temperatures, changes in

humidity and the crystallizing of the cellulose fibers themselves in the spruce tops.

 

The Yamaha process of steaming and pressure is nothing new...Gibson and others, have

bent their sides for many years using steam and pressure forms. While the vibrational

technique has perhaps merits in "loosening up" the top of a flat top from string vibrations...

good construction techniques do not require this extra step.

 

A Texan is the Epi version of a Gibson J50N. Does Gibson (or Martin) vibrate their

guitars prior to shipping?...I don't think so! The tone has to be there to start with

and it comes from the quality of the wood and the construction of the wood...the

top has to be made in such a way that it resonates like a drum skin. This requires

careful bracing and attachment of that bracing to the top, so it moves freely and

resonates like it is supposed to.

You can get better tone by changing the strings to a better grade of string as well.

[bill67]

What is a better grade of strings.

[carverman]

What is a better grade of strings.

 

Phosphor bronze vs bronze.

http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Divisions/Gibson%20Gear/Strings/Acoustic%20Guitar%20Strings/

[abbeyroadman]

.............. "While the vibrational technique has perhaps merits in "loosening up" the top of a flat top from string vibrations... good construction techniques do not require this extra step." ......................

 

So the improved sound claimed by dhanners23, and other musicians who have used a ToneRite on their string instruments, is the result of applying new technology to instruments of inferior construction techniques and low-grade strings? I ask this constructively as I consider purchasing a ToneRite.

 

I have been advised many times that an acoustic guitar that has significant play time will acquire a tonal quality that is un-replicable, and holds true for older models of brands including Gibson, Martin, Guild, etc. Noted that construction techniques, bracing and material are essential to the guitar's tonal quality when new. Living in an area with several stores that stock guitars at all price points, my impression is that in general and irregardless of brand, guitars at the highest price point always have a superior playability factor, in terms of action and set-up. I'm not sold on the tonal qualities, though, as I find it more times than not a challenge to distinguish the tonal quality between price points within a brand. That said, I appreciate reading about dhanner23 and others experience with the ToneRite.

 

Regards,

[dhanners623]

I don't think anyone has ever claimed that a ToneRite will make a badly-built guitar sound great, or will make a guitar built out of cheap materials sound better. The "tools," i.e., good wood and proper construction, have to be there in the first place. All I know is there is a difference now in the Texan's sound. I noticed it right away, and importantly, my wife noticed it. When she saw the ToneRite on the guitar, I told her it was supposed to affect tone; I purposefully didn't tell her what it was supposed to do so she could tell me her thoughts without knowing anything about the ToneRite "controversy." Like I said, she's not a player, but she goes to nearly all of my shows and she's got ears. And she had commented before about the tonal differences between the Texan and the J-45. So when she walks in the room and notes that the Texan sounds "richer and fuller," that tells me it's not just my wishful thinking that I hadn't just wasted a wad of cash on some snake-oil device.

 

Don't get me wrong -- the ToneRite didn't turn the Texan into a real '64 vintage beauty. It can't put 46 years on a guitar, and it's not designed to. But the guitar definitely sounded better after the treatment than it did before. Will it do the same to someone else's guitar? I don't know. And yeah, I know there is no replacement for playing the guitar. I play it as often as I can, but let's face it: When you work eight or nine hours a day, and you get home dog-tired and you have family obligations, you're not going to be playing the guitar for three or four hours a day. Since I work in a one-person office, I usually take a guitar in to play on my lunch hour, but even then, that's just an hour.

 

I also have to put a lot of weight in the endorsement of guys like Eric Schoenberg. It seems in every ToneRite thread I've read on various discussion boards, there is always someone who says, "Why don't you just buy a guitar that sounds the way you want it to?" As if I purposefully went out and bought a crappy-sounding guitar. As if Eric Schoenberg actually builds guitars whose sound he doesn't like. No, the Texan sounded really good before I got the ToneRite; I was quite surprised with it. I could have gone through life perfectly satisfied with the way it sounded. But if its inherent tone and volume can be improved beyond what it is already, why would I not do that if I could afford it? I junked the plastic bridge pins and replaced them with camel bone in an effort to "tweak" the guitar to sound better to some small degree. People switch out saddle and nut materials to do the same thing. So if there is something that will speed up a guitar's settling-in process, what's wrong with trying it?

 

As far as strings go, I use D'Addario EJ-17s, and they are phosphor-bronze.

[freak show]

[bill67]

Maybe that tone rite helps the strings and nothing to the guitar.

[carverman]

No' date=' the Texan sounded really good before I got the ToneRite; I was quite surprised with it. I could have gone through life perfectly satisfied with the way it sounded. But if its inherent tone and volume can be improved beyond what it is already, why would I not do that if I could afford it? [/quote']

 

Ok, you made your point on your Texan, but that doesn't sound like a guitar out of the box either,

it's been played for some years already, so the natural aging process has set in.

 

I junked the plastic bridge pins and replaced them with camel bone in an effort to "tweak" the guitar to sound better to some small degree. People switch out saddle and nut materials to do the same thing. So if there is something that will speed up a guitar's settling-in process, what's wrong with trying it?

 

Changing the nut material and saddle to bone, and using better quality bridge pins, should make a

difference already to the tone, so that is something understandable, and been used for many decades.

 

 

If this device really improves the tone and projection on a good quality guitar, then the company

should have sound clips with specific picking to emphasize the tone, and maybe volume of the guitar,

before and after being subjected to it.

[wiggy]

bill67 wrote:

What is a better grade of strings.

 

Phosphor bronze vs bronze.

http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Divisions/Gibson%20Gear/Strings/Acoustic%20Guitar%20Strings/

 

Surely whilst Phos Bronze and Bronze strings give a different tone you can't say that one is better than the other.

[ahrukidding]

"A fool and his money........."