How do you guys play with a piano player?

[Nick Beach]

The church I grew up in asked me to play something with the piano player there, and since my mom has been bugging me for years to play in church I figured I'd do it this once. But the piano player plays only by ear and isn't able to tell me what he's playing, and I play by the music. So far we got together and it was a complete disaster. Any advice as to how to play with him? Also to top it off there is a second piano player that only plays by music and she is expecting me to tell her what to play. Really this whole shindig is a little rough for me.

[albertjohn]

If it's in church, presumably hymns and other well known tunes?

 

If this is the case sites like chordie and others will transpose tunes to different keys.

 

You'll have to identify the base key, or opening chords to each tune as played on the piano, then plug that into the transposer, or iphone etc, which will give you a start.

 

This can throw up some impossible chord progessions particularly if your man plays by ear and has a preference for playing on the black keys (see Stevie Wonder).

 

So get yourself a capo and make life easier. Unfortunately, the capo MAY require you to transpose a second time (if you get my meaning).

 

Of course, the only way to make sure you are both playing the same tune is to practice together.

 

E.G. Your piano player plays a tune in G# (and lets say with 2 other chords being D# and C#) but you know it in C (+G and F). Transpose the chords with your handy transposer to G#. If you are lazy like me, the capo at 1st fret and play it in G (+D and C).

 

Confused?.....................You will be!

 

Or fire the paino player and get another guitarist! :-"

[Versatile]

This is a common situation in groups where there are varying degrees of 'musical literacy'. Ear keyboard players are relatively rare compared to guitarists etc. One obvious strategy, if you are playing 'standard' tunes is to obtain the sheet music with chord symbols, then establish the key for your performance by ear...then capo or re-chord to suit.

Knowledge is power so you become 'the director' and benefit from the elevated status inherent....

[Rambler]

Fascinating-- the pianist is by ear and the guitar player reads. There's a switch.

 

Does the church have a hymnal or some other manner of written music that you are working out of. That would at least give you the key. The chords can be worked out from the notes or by playing along.

[larryp58]

Start with the basics. You have to know what key the music is in. Then go from there. Good luck!

[E-minor7]

You obviously have to agree on the key. If the piano isn't flexible, find a capo and analyze how it works so you can use it on the spot. Then – and this is important – get yourselves some pulse. You both must have the same idea of beat, groove even rhythm. With that in place, determine who of you takes care of the basic structure of the tune – chords, bassrole and so, , , who is the carrier. This you can vary from song to song after what seems right. The other player – the free flier –works his way around the 'leader'. Takes care of the holes if you like, accompany straight on when needed - ad smaller counter-figures and soloist runs. This isn't as hard as it sounds and can be done with basic skills, you probably know.

 

If this doesn't get you anywhere, consider to drop the the co-work.

All kinds of good luck from here – you'll have 4 hands busy on the coming long the winter-nights.

[Nick Beach]

...You'll have to identify the base key, or opening chords to each tune as played on the piano...

 

Thats my problem, I have no piano knowledge and he can't tell me what key he's in, or what notes he's playing. My attempt to rectify the situation was to run down the the church yesterday and taped all the white keys and wrote what notes they are, so I can at least get a decent grip on what's being played.

 

 

Does the church have a hymnal or some other manner of written music that you are working out of. That would at least give you the key. The chords can be worked out from the notes or by playing along.

 

Yeah we do have hymnals but he doesn't use them, he gets a cd and just plays along with it until it sounds right to him. But I suppose that I can start with they hymnal and go from there.

[L5Larry]

I had this exact problem on a recording session back in the mid-80's. I got to the studio to find that the songwriter and producer for the session was a drummer who wrote his songs on guitar and keyboards. His guitar based songs were not a problem, he just showed me the song on guitar. He didn't know the names of any of the chords, and it turned out he was using some pretty sophisticated chord voicings. This part of the session turned out very good, but......

 

When he got to a keyboard song it was a different story. We had to sit down and work out the guitar chords note for note as he pecked them one by one on the piano. This was very time consuming, and not very cost effective with a studio clock running. After this session I decided there had to be a way to expedite this process.

 

Here's what I did. I went and bought a copy of Mel Bay's Deluxe Encyclopedia Of Guitar Chords. The I made a column chart of the individual notes of every chord in the book (Excel software would work great for this today). Then I could write down the individual notes of what was being played on the piano and go to the chart and find the corresponding chord (sometimes there is more than one). This way I could at least put a chord name to the piano tinklings. If I wasn't familiar on how the finger a certain chord I would then revert back to the Mel Bay chord book for the chord block.

 

To make these conversion charts was VERY time consuming on my part, but it has served me very well over the last 25 years. It has also come in very handy for just learning about guitar chords in general, and the process alone of writing this all out taught me a lot. I keep this homemade chart and the chord book in my "bag of tricks". It comes in very handy in may situations. I even tried to get Mel Bay to publish it, but at the time he wasn't interested in publishing something written by an "outsider".

 

There are now websites like "Chord Finder" that will convert a list of individual notes into a guitar chord, but the homemade chart and chord book are much easier to tote around than a computer.

[DanvillRob]

How do I play with a piano player? I always tended to play with the piano player's girlfriend!

 

Actually, I play the piano, (somewhat), so that was never a problem.

 

Many piano players don't really "play"..they read and hit the specified notes at the appropriate time, resulting in

a mechanical-sounding version of whatever they're playing.

 

If you want to hear a REAL piano player, listen to Brubeck, Domino, Jerry Lee, and of course..... Ray Charles.

[L5Larry]

And just exactly what does the above post have to do with this thread. Some of us are actually trying to help here.

[DanvillRob]

And just exactly what does the above post have to do with this thread. Some of us are actually trying to help here.

 

Just tryin' to keep the thread interesting. Didn't know you were the hall monitor.

[jefleppard]

 

 

Here's what I did. I went and bought a copy of Mel Bay's Deluxe Encyclopedia Of Guitar Chords. The I made a column chart of the individual notes of every chord in the book (Excel software would work great for this today). Then I could write down the individual notes of what was being played on the piano and go to the chart and find the corresponding chord (sometimes there is more than one).

 

any chance you could show a pictoral example of this? sounds very useful. i am "that guy" who doesn't read formally but i often play with guys who do. thusly, i am intrigued by your chart.

[L5Larry]

any chance you could show a pictoral example of this? sounds very useful. i am intrigued by your chart.

 

I will try to put an example into an Excel Spreadsheet format and see if I can post it. I'm just beginning to learn Excel, I haven't quite figured out how to post photos and documents here on the "new" website yet, flickr also changed their format, AND I'm in the last seven days of practice and rehearsals for a series of big band concerts.

 

Give me a little time and I will get something up.

[Nick Beach]

That chart sounds AWESOME. I'm totally going to sit down tomorrow and try to start making one. I'm really finding as I get older and I start to play with a lot of different types of musicians and instruments, it's becoming harder to play with people who don't read music and your chart sounds like it could really make my life easier. I wonder if it's possible to do a similar chart with scales as well. I've been playing a ton of jazz lately and I'd love to switch from rhythm guitar to lead, but I'm having a hard time with the typical jazz scales.

 

I've got a practice again tonight, so if it turns out to be as bad as last time I think I'll be relying on a chord chart.

[Rambler]

"he gets a cd and just plays along with it until it sounds right to him."

 

Eech. Totally annoying. Had an experience seconding someone with that outlook. Didnt know, didnt care. Let him play solo!

[L5Larry]

EDIT: My chart won't post in a readable format. I'll keep trying.

[L5Larry]

Still Trying. OK, I think I got it.

 

OK, so here’s a small sample of the conversion chart I made. The real chart contains listings for 26 voicings of each of the twelve tones of the western music scale.

 

To find the guitar chord of any group of notes being played simultaneously on any instrument you just have to scan the chart to find what chords contains ALL the notes being played. The full chord as listed may contain more notes, but it they are all not important. What is important is what I call the “flavor” of the chord.

 

........C.......Cm......C7......Cm7.....C6......Cm6.....C9......Cm9

9th.....................................................................D.......D

7th........................Bb......Bb......A 6th...A 6th......Bb......Bb

5th.....G.......G.......G........G.......G.........G..........G.........G

3rd.....E.......Eb......E.......Eb......E..........Eb.........E........Eb

Root....C.......C.......C.......C.......C..........C...........C.......C

 

Using a few “C” chords as an example:

If the piano player is playing C-E-G, you can see from the chart that it is a “C” chord. But before you decided this you would also have also checked the “E” and “G” root chords to find the simplest, and easiest (to play) explanation.

 

If the notes are Bb-Eb-C, check the “blocks” for each as the possible root notes to find what fits best, in this case “Cm7”. Not all chords (as played) contain, or need to contain all the notes, it’s just the “flavor” that is needed. The “flavor” is what defines the minor, or the 7th, 13th, etc.

 

One thing to remember is that as guitar players we are used to our lowest note being the root of the chord. This is NOT necessarily the case with piano chords, and theoretically the pitch order of the notes has nothing to do with the “root” or ”key”. So even if the piano player is playing a “G” as his lowest note of a C-E-G chord, it is still a “C” chord.

[TommyK]

Had this problem at a bluegrass jam. A 60ish woman wanted to sing an old standard. She joined our circle and asked if we'd back her up. We quizzed her, "what key?" She said, "Key?" She could sing it in the bathtub, but had no idea what key she was in.

 

Useful bit if musical knowledge: The last note of a song's phrases is the named key. If the end of the verse or chorus ends in A, then the key is in A.... usually. If that note 'resolves' and doesn't sound like it's leading somewhere, that's your key. A phrase can end in the middle of a verse or chorus, but almost invariably, in western music, ends on the key note.

 

I had her sing it acappela. Once she got to the end of a phrase I determined she was singing in "D". So we accompanied her in D. D, G and A chords sufficed. We got it sounding pretty good. Then, we got up on stage. I have no clue what key she modulated to, but she weren't singing in D no more. Probably, the excitement of getting up in front of a group of people got her a bit flustered and tightened up her vocal chords. That's when you just mute the frets and strum a beat. And hope she ends it quick.

 

Yup marking they keys probably helped. For those who've never played piano here's a short, very short course. Musical notes and the white keys on a piano are named A,B,C,D,E,F,G. Notice the pattern of black keys on the keyboard. They're grouped in twos and threes in regular sequence. Look for the center of the keyboard. It usually has a logo just above it. Find the two black keys nearest the center of the keyboard. The white key just to the left of the left black key is middle C. Play this key, then play the next white key to the right, then the next, then the next up to the next C. You've now played the C scale, i.e., an octave. The black keys are sharps of the white keys to their left and flats of the white keys to their right.

 

He is likely playing chords, i.e. 2,3 or 4 notes under one hand at the same time. Now watch the piano player as he finishes the chorus or verse of the song. This last chord, what note is his right thumb playing? THAT is your key. While a well versed pianist could be playing an inversion of a chord, this player sounds to be real simplistic in his playing and inversions are not in his repertoire. .... i.e. follow his right thumb.

 

It is entirely possible that even though he is playing songs which show up in the hymnal and people are following along, he could be playing in a different key than the hymnal shows. There are musicians whose trained ear can tell you when this happens, but your average church goer just sings whatever key the pianist is playing, because it sounds good. They have no idea they are not singing the key as printed in the hymnal. Talk about the blind leading the blind.... and in church too...

[E-minor7]

Had this problem at a bluegrass jam. A 60ish woman wanted to sing an old standard. She joined our circle and asked if we'd back her up. We quizzed her, "what key?" She said, "Key?" She could sing it in the bathtub, but had no idea what key she was in.

 

Useful bit if musical knowledge: The last note of a song's phrases is the named key. If the end of the verse or chorus ends in A, then the key is in A.... usually. If that note 'resolves' and doesn't sound like it's leading somewhere, that's your key. A phrase can end in the middle of a verse or chorus, but almost invariably, in western music, ends on the key note.

 

I had her sing it acappela. Once she got to the end of a phrase I determined she was singing in "D". So we accompanied her in D. D, G and A chords sufficed. We got it sounding pretty good. Then, we got up on stage. I have no clue what key she modulated to, but she weren't singing in D no more. Probably, the excitement of getting up in front of a group of people got her a bit flustered and tightened up her vocal chords. That's when you just mute the frets and strum a beat. And hope she ends it quick.

 

A while back I started a thread called 'Any horrific tales' - The story above would have taken the prize there.

[Nick Beach]

Still Trying. OK, I think I got it.

 

OK, so here’s a small sample of the conversion chart I made. The real chart contains listings for 26 voicings of each of the twelve tones of the western music scale.

 

To find the guitar chord of any group of notes being played simultaneously on any instrument you just have to scan the chart to find what chords contains ALL the notes being played. The full chord as listed may contain more notes, but it they are all not important. What is important is what I call the “flavor” of the chord.

 

........C.......Cm......C7......Cm7.....C6......Cm6.....C9......Cm9

9th.....................................................................D.......D

7th........................Bb......Bb......A 6th...A 6th......Bb......Bb

5th.....G.......G.......G........G.......G.........G..........G.........G

3rd.....E.......Eb......E.......Eb......E..........Eb.........E........Eb

Root....C.......C.......C.......C.......C..........C...........C.......C

 

Using a few “C” chords as an example:

If the piano player is playing C-E-G, you can see from the chart that it is a “C” chord. But before you decided this you would also have also checked the “E” and “G” root chords to find the simplest, and easiest (to play) explanation.

 

If the notes are Bb-Eb-C, check the “blocks” for each as the possible root notes to find what fits best, in this case “Cm7”. Not all chords (as played) contain, or need to contain all the notes, it’s just the “flavor” that is needed. The “flavor” is what defines the minor, or the 7th, 13th, etc.

 

One thing to remember is that as guitar players we are used to our lowest note being the root of the chord. This is NOT necessarily the case with piano chords, and theoretically the pitch order of the notes has nothing to do with the “root” or ”key”. So even if the piano player is playing a “G” as his lowest note of a C-E-G chord, it is still a “C” chord.

 

I started making one of these now, and I can already see it will be a great help in the future. I wish someone would make one for mass consumption though. It's WAY more time consuming and tedious than I had originally thought. Maybe you should call Hal Leonard or something. Maybe then L5Larry could be L5'sLarry

[L5Larry]

Maybe you should call Hal Leonard or something.

 

Years ago I did talk to Mel Bay Publishing about putting out my conversion chart. Old Mel wasn't interested at the time. His son, Bill Bay, now runs the company. I have a couple of things I would like to get published, one being the penultimate jazz chord chart. When I get the chord chart done I expect to be able to schedule a meeting with the publishing company. I'll "pitch" the conversion chart AGAIN at that time.

[DanvillRob]

Still Trying. OK, I think I got it.

 

OK, so here’s a small sample of the conversion chart I made. The real chart contains listings for 26 voicings of each of the twelve tones of the western music scale.

 

To find the guitar chord of any group of notes being played simultaneously on any instrument you just have to scan the chart to find what chords contains ALL the notes being played. The full chord as listed may contain more notes, but it they are all not important. What is important is what I call the “flavor” of the chord.

 

........C.......Cm......C7......Cm7.....C6......Cm6.....C9......Cm9

9th.....................................................................D.......D

7th........................Bb......Bb......A 6th...A 6th......Bb......Bb

5th.....G.......G.......G........G.......G.........G..........G.........G

3rd.....E.......Eb......E.......Eb......E..........Eb.........E........Eb

Root....C.......C.......C.......C.......C..........C...........C.......C

 

Using a few “C” chords as an example:

If the piano player is playing C-E-G, you can see from the chart that it is a “C” chord. But before you decided this you would also have also checked the “E” and “G” root chords to find the simplest, and easiest (to play) explanation.

 

If the notes are Bb-Eb-C, check the “blocks” for each as the possible root notes to find what fits best, in this case “Cm7”. Not all chords (as played) contain, or need to contain all the notes, it’s just the “flavor” that is needed. The “flavor” is what defines the minor, or the 7th, 13th, etc.

 

One thing to remember is that as guitar players we are used to our lowest note being the root of the chord. This is NOT necessarily the case with piano chords, and theoretically the pitch order of the notes has nothing to do with the “root” or ”key”. So even if the piano player is playing a “G” as his lowest note of a C-E-G chord, it is still a “C” chord.

 

I'm pretty good with most chords, but this list would be EXTREMELY helpful, (I could NOT find a "m9" chord off the top of my head).

 

If you get that published, I'd sure be interested in buying a copy.

 

GREAT job, L5!

[DanvillRob]

Had this problem at a bluegrass jam. A 60ish woman wanted to sing an old standard. She joined our circle and asked if we'd back her up. We quizzed her, "what key?" She said, "Key?" She could sing it in the bathtub, but had no idea what key she was in.

 

Useful bit if musical knowledge: The last note of a song's phrases is the named key. If the end of the verse or chorus ends in A, then the key is in A.... usually. If that note 'resolves' and doesn't sound like it's leading somewhere, that's your key. A phrase can end in the middle of a verse or chorus, but almost invariably, in western music, ends on the key note.

 

I had her sing it acappela. Once she got to the end of a phrase I determined she was singing in "D". So we accompanied her in D. D, G and A chords sufficed. We got it sounding pretty good. Then, we got up on stage. I have no clue what key she modulated to, but she weren't singing in D no more. Probably, the excitement of getting up in front of a group of people got her a bit flustered and tightened up her vocal chords. That's when you just mute the frets and strum a beat. And hope she ends it quick.

 

 

Oh man... I recall the days! Back in the 60's we used to play at a Pizza parlor. The owner used to like to get up to do a song each night. He had a beautiful voice, and sang some of the old standards....but.... he had ZERO sense of timing. We "chased" him all around whatever song he was singing.

 

Letting "pedestrians" on stage with you is always risky.

[Daryl M]

I play piano by ear, and have had the exact same situation at church a few years ago with a guest there. He was a "strictly by the paper" music reader and player. Since I was the one who played by ear, I had to be the flexable one. He was playing a variation of a hymn, which helped. I had him play it down once and I made a chart. (If you know the Nashville number system, it helps. If not, just writing the chords would have worked.) I just played rhythm and support chords. It turned out great. If the ear player is any good at all, they should be able to adapt.

[DanvillRob]

I play piano by ear, and have had the exact same situation at church a few years ago with a guest there. He was a "strictly by the paper" music reader and player. Since I was the one who played by ear, I had to be the flexable one. He was playing a variation of a hymn, which helped. I had him play it down once and I made a chart. (If you know the Nashville number system, it helps. If not, just writing the chords would have worked.) I just played rhythm and support chords. It turned out great. If the ear player is any good at all, they should be able to adapt.

 

I too, play piano "by ear", but I normally use the same charts I make for guitar. I'm very comfortable with the chords, and I play the root bass with my left hand, (self-taught). I'm not as "comfortable" on the piano as I am on the guitar, but I make due. I've played piano in some concerts, but I have to have the songs practiced and ready to go...wouldn't want to try to "wing it".