So a guy walks into a guitar shop

[milod]

Yeah, some of those "Patent infringement" guitars were very, very nice.

 

Mine certainly is - and there's no question that it says "Ibanez" on the headstock so I didn't feel any guilt whatsoever. MIJ was coming to mean quality was good, not reused Budweiser cans on motorcycle engines.

 

I knew I was buying an Ibanez when I got that guitar. Remember too that this came at a time of fairly rapid changes in the marketplace, too. I didn't hear about any lawsuits over design until a lot later on. It wasn't an issue for me at the time and place.

 

Currently... I dunno. The "clone machine" does bring questions in terms of quality. That's one reason I'd be more likely to look at the Epi version at the lower price point rather than a "clone" machine that can't spell.

 

m

[ChanMan]

Aside from guitar cloning machines that can make perfect copies, but are unable to differentiate between the letters O and U, here are my thoughts:

Many companies make carved top, single cut-away, 24.75 inch scale guitars that are obviously inspired by the Gibson Les Paul. These companies (with exception to the Japanese law suit era guitars) usually make a few intentional design alterations to make their instruments stand out from the herd. While Ibanez produces a single cutaway, set neck, gold colored guitar with P90s, they change the body design and other features to make it unique. No one is going to look at it and confuse it with a Les Paul until they examine the headstock logo. Ibanez is not alone in taking a page from the Gibson playbook. Unless its a Telecaster or a V, pretty much every guitar on the market today has been inspired by an earlier model and borrowed some specs from it.

I'm into cool guitars. I take an instrument for what it is and what it can do. I'm not going to scoff at a guitar with 3 single coils, a tremolo, and a double cut-away body because Leo Fender thought of it first. However, if an instrument is exactly identical to a previous design with acceptation to a letter or 2 on the headstock and a smaller price tag, I'm moving on. The design obviously lacks any kind of creativity, so god knows what else it may be lacking.

 

 

I think that is a nice way to sum up my thoughts on the chinese "fakes". I've owned a really sweet Strat copy that proudly displayed the name Hondo on the top. If it had said Fander Stratocuster, I'd have been dubious.

 

 

Why NOT just put your damn name on it and sell it for what it is??? I mean... if you're gonna sell it for $300 anyway... it just doesn't make sense to me :(

[ChanMan]

See, I was just basing how I would be in that specific scenario. If I had 5 thousand and I had my heart set on that particular guitar I wouldn't want a clone unless it was better, and in this case, it isn't.

 

Now, were I just me I'd probably go the pragmatic route and get the Gibsum because I wouldn't spend 5k on a guitar unless I won the lottery or the likes.

 

I'm just trying to put myself in the situation I guess Chan.

 

 

/whew!

 

 

Ok cool. That makes a lot of sense, actually. :D If I go shopping to pick up something in particular, I'm not likely to even look at anything else.

 

 

Yes, I can manshop the music store :D!

[Andy R]

`

 

 

 

`

I think you should not have said "quark"

cuz it got cornfuzed with "quirk". If you

had said "cloned exactly to the smallest

molecule or sub-atomic particle", you'd

have made your point but not triggered

all the cornfuzion that followed.

 

 

 

 

 

`

 

 

Yeah I agree but if I would have said smallest molecule or sub-atomic particle some wise guy (cough) ChanMan would have made me get it down to the quark level anyway.

[ChanMan]

Yeah I agree but if I would have said smallest molecule or sub-atomic particle some wise guy (cough) ChanMan would have made me get it down to the quark level anyway.

 

 

Don't you mean "quirk" level???

 

 

 

Ok ok ok ok.... I'm out...

 

[Andy R]

I think I understand your motives for starting this thread now that I read your Ebay thread. I believe you've been drinking too much of the Ed Roman coolaid:(

 

No but I can understand why you might think that. Ed's Kool-Aid has the bitter after taste of Sour Grapes. Ed obviously has an axe to grind with Gibson where as I don't. In fact I just bought a Les Paul Studio today (at a very reasonable price I might add and on Ebay to boot!). The most expensive guitars I own are all Gibson. A 77 Deluxe, 62 Reissue SG, 80 Explorer E2 Walnut, 82 Explorer CMT E2. Also if you notice in the first post of this thread I even admitted I would probably buy the Gibson.

 

So while you think you might understand my motive I can assure you that you don't know me, my background, experience or my intellectual capacity as a free thinking human being to make that large of an assumption. I will freely admit that I do agree with a lot that Ed has to say but generally as an affirmation of some things I have believed for years in my own little mind.

 

I'm an honest and transparent person so I will state my motives for both threads. First of all it was Sunday. I was kinda bored and had a few things on my mind so I thought I would think aloud here to see what others thought, maybe get a laugh or two, and perhaps even learn something not only about myself but others well. So I guess I could have started a generic "What do you think of A vs B" type of thread but I thought I would ask a few questions that try to make not only myself think but others as well.

 

Concerning the eBay thread I was really hoping to get some ideas as well as pass along some thoughts about getting some better deals. Get peoples opinions on if they felt it had hurt or helped the average guitar buyer. The side rant probably should have went else where but I was feeling a bit of Anarchy welling up. It seems to have turned into more of an if you would or wouldn't buy a guitar on eBay thread which is cool too if that's what everyone wants to focus on.

 

This thread was really a question to myself and what I think I would do and why? So I also thought it would be interesting to see what other people might have to say. I think so far it has at the very least been entertaining, well behaved and I have learned a few things as well.

 

Given that I hope you participate so that we might get to know each other a bit better.

 

Regards,

 

Andy

[milod]

I understand the "bit of anarchy" or "rage against the machine" sorta thing. Been there, done that.

 

But I think another factor not mentioned is the hope, at least, of a warranty meaning something from a "brand name" whether it's Gibson, Fender, Martin, Taylor or whatever. Even Hondo.

 

The thought of a personalized archtop from a highly skilled luthier for half of a somewhat similar Gibson offering, for example, is kinda neat. But it's also kinda like some specialized software from a genius programmer. The warranty is only good when he's alive or, at worst, willing.

 

Technically, at least, a corporate entity should be easier to sue, if nothing else. So I guess you could say I'm at least as cynical as anyone else here.

 

Personally I tend to get tired of some of the Gibson bashing I hear.

 

The heck with the chiefs; who wants to go into the factory and tell the folks there that they're worthless lying boobs who don't do their jobs and put out crap? They're not and they don't, as far as I can see. I sometimes wonder... I truly do.

 

m

[LPguitarman]

If I went into a store with cash in hand with my heart set on a Gibson Les Paul, I might try the other to be nice but I would never buy a counterfeit or clone. Just not the real thing.

[damian]

You do know a lot.....I look foward to more threads from you regarding your years and experience working in the industry.

I avoided the fray this thread created...Since you intend for the thread to continue, I'll add a response when I'm ready...

[retrosurfer1959]

Why is it "settling for" when they are the same quality, tone and playability?

 

 

A perfect example, albeit outside the scope of this thread. Ford Pinto and Mercury Bobcat... they were the exact same vehicle, except for the grill and the Bobcat had a chrome strip around the back window.

 

Pinto carried a Ford sticker price, the Bobcat carried a Mercury sticker price....

 

 

 

Why drop thousands more for the same vehicle? Was the name "Mercury" worth thousands?

 

 

I understand your point and usually agree but I was a young driver in the Pinto and Bobcat years and the paint job alone was probably worth the difference after a few years every Pinto had paint literally falling off at least out here in Phoenix while the Merc Bobcat still looked the same. It was always a close contest though which was the uglier color the sky blue Bobcat or the skinned rabbit flesh-tone of the Pintos?

 

I actually drove one of the Pinto cruising wagons in silver metallic in 77 boy was I cool or what? Thats how I know about the Ford paint of those years the dealer painted that Ford three times in the two years I owned it...

[Andy R]

I admit it. I am a consumer whore. Ever since I was a kid my mom could never pass the knock off power rangers or lego as "real".

 

IMO there is a difference in quality between a lygitimate product (say, Lego vs generic building blocks).

 

If it was me in your scenario and I had budgeted 5k for a guitar that obviously means that I can afford the one I originally wanted, so yes I could have bought the cheaper clone but I don't want to because that's not what I wanted. IF you're dropping 5k on a guitar it's not about the cost at that point.

 

The average guitar player however might lust after the original and have to settle for the Gibsum because that's what they can afford/ what works etc.

 

You know what, I think you might have at least answered why I would make the decision to buy the Gibson over the Gibsum. When I was growing up I wanted a Mongoose BMX bike so bad I couldn't hardly stand it. I dreamed of having one and begged my Mom to buy me one but I never got anything more than a Huffy. She refused to Pay $200.00 in 1979 for a bicycle. Same for levi's jeans (had to wear J.C. Penny Plain Pockets and Nike or Adidas tennis shoes were out of the question). Of course being an adult and realizing that my Mother was working two waitress jobs at the time I understand and have a lot of respect for her.

 

So I guess now that I can spend my own money I am making up for it. I have to say working for a few guitar manufacturers and a couple of music stores has taken some of the thrill and mystique out of buying a guitar for me at least for a period of time. I know what they cost to make, I know where and how they are made, If I walk into a music store I can find the best value for the guitar in the whole store. If I ever spent more than 2K on a solid body electric guitar it isn't going to be something new that is mass produced or easily available no matter what the brand (Vintage or rare maybe). I just won't do it. More power to the people who do but in my humble opinion your getting ripped! If I were going to get into that range of cash I would buy a custom guitar and I would want it built with any part, shape or spec I wanted.

 

Great point you made. Thanks for participating! Nice to meet you as well.

 

Regards,

 

Andy

[milod]

Andy, I hear what you're saying, but...

 

I was dead serious about the comparison to software. Yeah, boutique software, like a boutique guitar or amp can be neat - and in ways qualitatively better than an off-the-shelf piece.

 

But as I wrote earlier, been there, done that. I lost files like you wouldn't believe from going that direction. I'm terrified for our local museum that has its artifact files on a very specific specialized program.

 

Ditto if there's a problem with a boutique amp or guitar. My big tube amp is an example. Some guys set out to make a better twin reverb. I think they did. I still own one from the '70s. But I doubt there's even a way to get any internal diagrams for it nowadays. They've been outa business for years.

 

Would I spend $2,000 on a Gibson? Not unless I win a lottery; I just ain't got it. If I had it? Yeah, probably, depending on the specific instrument and how it felt. Even HenryJ will tell you there's enough of a tiny difference between Gibsons that you really should play the darned thing first.

 

I'll still note there's a lot more to margins in a biz than just the cost of materials and labor...

 

m

[Andy R]

So everyone knows I think my scenario here is being misconstrued a little/lot. It was never about advocating buying a clone or a Les Paul blatant Rip Off. I referenced a cloned guitar only as way of saying if there were two equally well built guitars that sounded and played identically (which would be pretty much impossible thus the invention of the clone machine) would you only buy one or the other because of the brand name. Be it Gibson, Fender, (Insert brand here). If so why?

 

Also, as I stated in another reply, I'm not a Gibson hater or basher. Do I think they are way over priced for what you get. Yes I do. Not Just Gibson, I feel this way about Fender, and about every other large major guitar manufacturer. Yet I buy name brands too but only if I can get them for the value of what I really feel (or know) they are worth. This may vary between person to person...

[ChanMan]

I understand your point and usually agree but I was a young driver in the Pinto and Bobcat years and the paint job alone was probably worth the difference after a few years every Pinto had paint literally falling off at least out here in Phoenix while the Merc Bobcat still looked the same. It was always a close contest though which was the uglier color the sky blue Bobcat or the skinned rabbit flesh-tone of the Pintos?

 

I actually drove one of the Pinto cruising wagons in silver metallic in 77 boy was I cool or what? Thats how I know about the Ford paint of those years the dealer painted that Ford three times in the two years I owned it...

 

 

/chuckle

 

You too, huh?

 

Lime green '76 pinto wagon. Ugly as all get out, but it had a Pioneer Super Tuner in it with Midland Stage II's. I was still driving it when I met my wife. At least I knew she wasn't interested in me just for my car...

:D

 

Oh and Ebay Les Pauls Rock!

[neilpanda]

if he buys guitars like I do, he would notice the flaws in the guibsum. like the logo?

[Andy R]

Andy, I hear what you're saying, but...

 

I was dead serious about the comparison to software. Yeah, boutique software, like a boutique guitar or amp can be neat - and in ways qualitatively better than an off-the-shelf piece.

 

But as I wrote earlier, been there, done that. I lost files like you wouldn't believe from going that direction. I'm terrified for our local museum that has its artifact files on a very specific specialized program.

 

Ditto if there's a problem with a boutique amp or guitar. My big tube amp is an example. Some guys set out to make a better twin reverb. I think they did. I still own one from the '70s. But I doubt there's even a way to get any internal diagrams for it nowadays. They've been outa business for years.

 

Would I spend $2,000 on a Gibson? Not unless I win a lottery; I just ain't got it. If I had it? Yeah, probably, depending on the specific instrument and how it felt. Even HenryJ will tell you there's enough of a tiny difference between Gibsons that you really should play the darned thing first.

 

I'll still note there's a lot more to margins in a biz than just the cost of materials and labor...

 

m

 

Milod,

I can tell you are a wise and experienced man who also takes the time to think and consider a question posed instead of just randomly blurting out an uneducated or malformed opinion. I totally understand your comparison as I have been in IT for the last 12 years. In some cases it is better to buy off the shelf and out of the box products as fly by night software development and software that costs a mint in"Professional Services" can surely bite you in the a$$.

 

I also understand that there is a lot more than cost of materials and labor as I have a friend who had 3 failed ventures in the musical instrument industry. There is a lot of unscrupulous dealings in that world.

 

I think where I might be a little different than some is I have never been afraid to tear something apart and see how it ticks. I'm not afraid of my 73 Marshalls blowing up because I have popped the hood and learned how to repair and modify it like I want it. I guarantee if you popped the top on that "Improved" Fender Reverb and compare it to the schematics of a Twin Reverb of its time you would quickly see what the modifications of the original design were. Tube guitar amps are all essentially a fender Bassmans with a few minor alterations at least until you get to the late 80's to present Tube amps( andthey are still essentially the same premise). Most people don't know that you can take a 68 Marshall Super Bass that goes for less than half the price of a 68 Super Lead and change about 3 components and make it identical to a super lead.

 

Like I said I think sometimes knowledge takes away the mystique but with that knowledge you are no longer enslaved to others who are "In the Know" ...

 

So in short I guess I can see where if your not comfortable working on an expensive guitar where people would feel more comfortable spending the extra money on something that at least makes them feel safe.

 

Good points and I amazed at how much this topic has made me think. Hope others are doing the same.

 

 

Andy

[ChanMan]

ok, I'll bite. What does it cost Gibson to make a guitar, labor and materials?

 

 

 

[neilpanda]

ok, I'll bite. What does it cost Gibson to make a guitar, labor and materials?

 

I'd say like $700/800 for the materials (wood,tuners, electronics, etc.)

maybe 300 for labor? and a bit more just cause its a Gibson.

but the cost depends on the guitar and the materials they use

 

Im just takin a guess there though

[SG FAN]

Frankly, I was ready for an arguement, but I was impressed by your quite thoughtful response. However, I think that you're giving Mr Roman too much credibility. Almost no one takes what he says seriously. I have two Gibsons, an SG Special and an SG Standard, both are exeptional instruments. Truthfully, I think they're worth every cent I payed for them and can't see how people can call them overrated. But in the same vein, if the Gibson isn't up to snuff, I won't hesitate to go with another brand. It just happens that the ones I own are geat so I'm sticking with them.

P.S. I hear ya about not paying over 2g's for a guitar, though.

[Andy R]

Frankly, I was ready for an arguement, but I was impressed by your quite thoughtful response. However, I think that you're giving Mr Roman too much credibility. Almost no one takes what he says seriously. I have two Gibsons, an SG Special and an SG Standard, both are exeptional instruments. Truthfully, I think they're worth every cent I payed for them and can't see how people can call them overrated. But in the same vein, if the Gibson isn't up to snuff, I won't hesitate to go with another brand. It just happens that the ones I own are geat so I'm sticking with them.

P.S. I hear ya about not paying over 2g's for a guitar, though.

 

Cool I'm not on here to troll or to make people mad at me. As I said it is obvious that Ed has an axe to grind and he might well be a giant windbag (never meet the guy so I won't make that assumption) but you can learn something from anyone no matter how much of an arsehole or ignorant they may be. You just have to be smart enough to pick out what is crap and what is valid. I won't dismiss someones points or intelligence based on whether or not I agree or disagree with some of the things they think or feel. When I used to teach guitar I would always learn something from the kids I was teaching even though they were just learning.

 

Glad we can reset and move forward. Nice meeting you dude.

 

 

Andy

[Andy R]

I'd say like $700/800 for the materials (wood,tuners, electronics, etc.)

maybe 300 for labor? and a bit more just cause its a Gibson.

but the cost depends on the guitar and the materials they use

 

Im just takin a guess there though

 

 

(Again this isn't just Gibson)

I think that is a pretty high estimate for anything that is production run guitars. Remember they buy in huge bulk and the workers aren't all highly paid skilled luthiers. They also have the advantage of CNC machines and fast curing glues and lacquers that they didn't have in the past. They run a factory it's not a bunch of luthiers sanding and honing every instrument.

 

My Guess is for a Les Paul deluxe -

wood - 25.00-50.00 maybe

Tuners - 5.00 or less per set

Bridge - 3.00

Tailpiece - 3.00

Nut - 10Cents

Screws - 25 cents

Pickups - 5.00 per

Plastics - 10.00

Fretboard 5.00 - 10.00 with Inlays

Paint - 10.00

Labor $50.00 -$100.00

 

Total = 196.35 on the high side. Maybe 10 to 15 % margin of error Actual costs.

 

As milod said there is much more than just parts and labor costs. Operational overhead (Operating costs, maintenance, IT, HR, R&D, employee benefits, sales, taxes, Marketing, insurance etc..) that isn't being considered here but you can get the idea. This would be my guess.

So maybe 400.00 to 500.00 before they start to see a profit.

[ChanMan]

I'd say like $700/800 for the materials (wood,tuners, electronics, etc.)

maybe 300 for labor? and a bit more just cause its a Gibson.

but the cost depends on the guitar and the materials they use

 

Im just takin a guess there though

 

 

Ok, assuming we're talking a Standard or better here, as those numbers would result in a loss for a studio faded or some of the lower end guitars. That's $1000-$1100. Then they sell it to a retailer, who sells it for $2000. Not knowing what wholesale is, I'ma guess $1500 to the retailer. So Gibson makes 500 and the retailer makes $500. Sales guy gets a piece, gotta pay the warehouse folks who loaded the truck, the neck guy, the body guy, the fret guy, the janitor, the paint guy, the wood curing guy, the administrative assistant and Henry J.

 

I know my formula is flawed, but this is not a killing, imo. Lots of folks with hands in that pot.

 

I'd say it costs less to make them than that, but then, I've seen the video on how they're made and how many folks are involved.

 

I'd like to know. I've worked jewelry. Want to know what a REAL markup looks like??

 

[ChanMan]

(Again this isn't just Gibson)

I think that is a pretty high estimate for anything that is production run guitars. Remember they buy in huge bulk and the workers aren't all highly paid skilled luthiers. They also have the advantage of CNC machines and fast curing glues and lacquers that they didn't have in the past. They run a factory it's not a bunch of luthiers sanding and honing every instrument.

 

My Guess is for a Les Paul deluxe -

wood - 25.00-50.00 maybe

Tuners - 5.00 or less per set

Bridge - 3.00

Tailpiece - 3.00

Nut - 10Cents

Screws - 25 cents

Pickups - 5.00 per

Plastics - 10.00

Fretboard 5.00 - 10.00 with Inlays

Paint - 10.00

Labor $50.00 -$100.00

 

Total = 196.35 on the high side. Maybe 10 to 15 % margin of error Actual costs.

 

As milod said there is much more than just parts and labor costs. Operational overhead (Operating costs, maintenance, IT, HR, R&D, employee benefits, sales, taxes, Marketing, insurance etc..) that isn't being considered here but you can get the idea. This would be my guess.

So maybe 400.00 to 500.00 before they start to see a profit.

 

Add shipping and 3rd party retailer overhead and labor costs as well... still seems like a drop in the bucket selling the guitar at the 2k price point.

[milod]

I have a hunch that the level of firm such as Gibson has a lot of hidden costs "outsiders" may never know about too. So... I dunno.

 

I could probably manage to make a Fender type guitar if I had one as a pattern and some decent tools. I'd not care to try a set neck. I'll wager that adds a lot more longterm costs - as in warranty service and trashed manufacturing errors by far than what a board and bolt-on costs.

 

It's also my observation that a ma and pa biz has a lot less to be concerned about than a biz at this sorta level. So many more considerations. Even purchase of woods, decisions on how to cure them and wastage, etc... financing on such stuff... financing before payment from wholesale or retailers... etc., etc.,

 

That's why I feel I'm not in a position to attack - but on the same level, I'm not in a position necessarily to defend except ... I very, very much dislike nasty personal attacks such as we've seen on the board in the past.

 

I started trying to figure some costs myself and frankly gave up because the finances involved are well above, and include amounts different from what a ma and pa music shop or clothing store would likely have to work with. The level up to a small store or magazine I can manage. Gibson is way, way above that sort of operation in terms of complexity.

 

m

[milod]

I have a hunch that the level of firm such as Gibson has a lot of hidden costs "outsiders" may never know about too. So... I dunno.

 

I could probably manage to make a Fender type guitar if I had one as a pattern and some decent tools. I'd not care to try a set neck. I'll wager that adds a lot more longterm costs - as in warranty service and trashed manufacturing errors by far than what a board and bolt-on costs.

 

It's also my observation that a ma and pa biz has a lot less to be concerned about than a biz at this sorta level. So many more considerations. Even purchase of woods, decisions on how to cure them and wastage, etc... financing on such stuff... financing before payment from wholesale or retailers... etc., etc.,

 

That's why I feel I'm not in a position to attack - but on the same level, I'm not in a position necessarily to defend except ... I very, very much dislike nasty personal attacks such as we've seen on the board in the past.

 

I started trying to figure some costs myself and frankly gave up because the finances involved are well above, and include amounts different from what a ma and pa music shop or clothing store would likely have to work with. The level up to a small store or magazine I can manage. Gibson is way, way above that sort of operation in terms of complexity.

 

m