Overwhelmed by pickup choices: match my new Epi 175 to my 58

[Goldenvoice]

Hi, new to the board, but I've been making sweet love to my 58 Gibson 175D blondy since 1985:)

 

She sports the original PAFs, and I do a wide variety of music, but mostly 50s pop, rockabilly, and western; stringing her up with Chromes 11s jazz-light.

 

Anyway, yesterday, she went in to have the original frets finally replaced, and for fill-in (and travel) I picked up a new Epi 175 - sweet-meats for the money, but I'm advised to upgrade the pickups.

 

So, herein lies the issue. There are so many PAF copies out there, my head starts to spin reading up on all of them. The salesman yesterday was leaning my toward Burstbucker I for the neck, II for the bridge. I realize this is a Gibson board,(just as he is a Gibson dealer), so maybe some may feel strange about recommending anything but Gibson pups, but what of others, such as the Duncan Antiques?

 

I play mostly both pups, wide open - only jump to the bridge for Cash tunes. I know the Epi will not keep pace with the 58, with her age, beauty, and true PAFs, but I want to get as close, balance and volume wise, as I can - a smooth shoe-in.

 

What do you guys think? The 58 used the same pup in both positions, correct? If so, I'd think I'd want to do the same. The Duncans are built on the same machine as the originals... There are some 'boutique' pups out there, but the whole idea is keep the cost reasonably low...

 

?

[milod]

Get the Epi at least in part to protect the old master...

 

Don't diddle with pups for at least a year, but instead consider a couple different string choices, including Elixirs. That messing with strings should help cover that year's time period. At that point in time you can better decide what you wanna do - and won't be necessarily chasing something that ain't there.

 

Frankly I've heard the same "you gotta dump those Epi pups" when I got my Dot last summer. I think before an upgrade on pots and switches the company did the past year or so, I might well have considered that.

 

I'm still considering an upgrade nut. I've a hunch that and different strings are/will be more important in some sound dimensions than buying new pups and the potential cash of properly installing them in an archtop.

 

But the Epi pups? So far I get quality sound. Good quality sound, and far better than I hear out of "competing" guitars. So... Hmmmmm.... I think I'd prefer getting a Dot Studio and a "project" of putting P90 types on it and maybe some neck inlays than messing with what I've got now.

 

So... again... mess with strings and wait a year. You might be surprised. But then, I'm not trying to sell $120 worth of stuff, either.

 

m

[Thundergod]

I totally agree with Milod, don't mess with the pickups yet, it doesn't matter what others say or think about epi pickups, maybe they'll work wonderfully with your amp and the rest of your setup (cable and pick included!)

 

Give them a try, if you are not 100% satisfied with them, try playing around with your amp's EQ controls and maybe lowering/higening them before changing them.

[damian]

Both guitars are nice...I agree with Thundergod and Milod ( and who wouldn't ? ).......If after a while you want to change them out, I say go with Gibson's classic '57s...My reasoning is that the Epi has "new" wood and will take time to mellow, so, Burstbuckers might be a bit bright for clean jazz; '57s are nice and full...Charlie Christian has some nice Jazz pickups. Duncan makes nice pickups but I'm not familiar with them much..

[Mr. Natural]

The Duncan Antiquities are highly regarded. If I were replacing pickups, I'd give them a listen.

[Goldenvoice]

Thanks for the feedback (no pun intended). Reading up on reviews, the Semore Duncan antiquities get a very fair shake; also Duncan's Seth Lover sounds interesting - the antiquity, without the "pre-aging".

 

I'll take your lead, and leave be for now. I have 3 gigs this weekend, which should give me time to familiarize myself with the Epi - more so than sitting around the house picking. So as long as it doesn't leave yearning, I'll just play the heck out of it for a while.

[milod]

Goldenvoice...

 

I think that's a good idea... Let it work. Consider other strings and settings as TG suggested. Sometimes it's the little things that make for guitar "love" or just a guitar.

 

m

[Sofaplayer]

I'd use the same strings that you use for your beloved 175. You're used to them and if they're the strings of your choice on the 175, you'll like them just the same on the Epi.

 

Regarding the pickups, you might want to consider something different. If you use humbuckers, the Epi will always be an imitation of your Gibson. If you use single coils, a Lollar Charlie Christian (neck) and a Gibson P94 (bridge) for example, the Epi will have a distinct character and quality of its own.

 

Just a thought.

[damian]

Wow, a great thread.....a new member gets his questions answered with good solid advice, and I (and maybe others) learn some more solid info........ ........

[pippy]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

 

I'd suggest much the same as everyone else in that I'd hang back from p-up swapping until you've heard exactly what the Epi sounds like in a 'live' setting. You say there are some gigs imminent so you don't have too long to wait. I had an Epi and found the stock p-ups to be fine sounding units.

 

Also I'd venture to suggest that, as far as the audience is concerned, most of what they will hear will be Your Playing; not which particular type of p-ups you have fitted.

 

As far as replacements are concerned, if you decide to go down that route; My personal favourites for what I believe to be the closest to original PAFs (I don't have a set of originals for comparison, sadly!) are Gibson's '57 Classics.

 

I play some Les Pauls. Two of them have '57s and they sound, to my ears, very authentic when compared to vintage recordings.

 

Another Paul I have, it so happens, does have a (matched) set of Seymour Duncan 'Antiquities'. I don't rate them as highly. I know that puts me in a minority of, perhaps, one (lol!) but I've been trying to get the best from them for a year or so. I'm still not a huge fan. They do have a sweet spot and they can be made to sound very good but their useable tonal breadth (in my experience) is narrower than that of the '57s. In addition the amp needs to be working harder to get the best from them.

 

One further point to bear in mind, however; I play through an old Music Man 2x12 combo (which is essentially a Twin Reverb clone). I've played the SD-As through a Marshall Half-stack and they sounded better through that than my own amp.

 

... Burstbuckers might be a bit bright for clean jazz; '57s are nice and full...

I agree with Damian. I've played a lot of BB-equipped Pauls and they were all very bright-sounding. Not a bad thing, of course, but possibly not the best option for you.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Please keep us informed!

 

And when you get the Blonde back...there's an expression round these parts; 'Pics : or it didn't happen!'

 

P.

[milod]

I think Pippy really hit it with this:

 

"Also I'd venture to suggest that, as far as the audience is concerned, most of what they will hear will be Your Playing; not which particular type of p-ups you have fitted."

 

It's my observation as "the old guy," that "we" too often think about what we're hearing and forget that a crowd at a gig hear - or perceive that they hear - something else.

 

I've heard Joe Pass (jazz guitar) recordings with guitars ranging from a Fender Jaguar to an ES175 to several other instruments and ... even when he was using a pick 'stedda fingerpicking, he still sounded like ... Joe Pass pretty much all the way through.

 

That's why I'm far more a playability and easiest gear to haul for a given gig guy as opposed to a "let's try this 'n' that" and I need a bigger/better amp guy.

 

Finally - yeah, any electric guitar is just part of a "system." Since Epi upgraded its pots and switches I think it's more a matter of tweaking an amp or whatever than tossing pups that to me are far better than many competing designs that may be different, but not necessarily better...

 

m

[damian]

Always good thoughts Milod, thankyou.....this thread is about the most perfect thread we've had in a while... [thumbup]

[Goldenvoice]

Great thought sharing - and I feel at home already! :)

 

Now I'll rock the boat, and mess it all up - here's my 58 #1 & 2 pre-work

(oh gawd, did I just post this?)

 

[milod]

Holy mackerel!

 

You gonna know how to play her when you get real frets back? <chortle>

 

m

[Goldenvoice]

No doubt, huh?

 

Actually, playing the new Epi a little - gee, maybe I'm a better player than I thought?

 

 

Annnnd, set up my rig this evening, and after working 'some' of the bugs out of the Epi, I have some "first impressions" - she's playing nice (read=frets, for starters) - the pickups?: we'll see, might just get me through the weekend; definitely a different bird than the old timer. The pickups seem 'balanced', but maybe lack midrange life (?), and that nice 'grab-ya' ting of the PAFs... The 58 I'm used to: more difference between the neck and bridge then the Epi.

 

but, this is by no means a review of them...

 

Or the guitar as a whole - it has potential. Started with the neck pu mount was on backwards, so the pu was totally off kilter. The 1/4" jack is loose (standard issue), and as far as I'm concerned, the bridge is on back-assward, but that's another post.

:)

[damian]

Great thought sharing - and I feel at home already! :)

 

Now I'll rock the boat, and mess it all up - here's my 58 #1 & 2 pre-work

(oh gawd, did I just post this?)

 

 

This photo shows how dedicated you are to your craft.....If you wish, feel free to post some recordings and / or video of your work....... [thumbup] ...

 

This is a very cool thread...welcome to the forums.

[brundaddy]

There's a somewhat snooty mentality that Epiphones are inferior guitars. Many players have become obsessed with modifying every piece of gear they think they can manage. Many of the same people don't think for themselves, just monkey-see-monkey-do, and all this creates an expectation that stock OEM somehow isn't good enough.

 

Let it ride with your new guitar. It'll take time to really get to know it. I know compared to your 58 it's a cheap tinkertoy but this kind of stuff always works out best when it's done thoughtfully. Like everybody says, you may be amazed how much difference strings and pickup height can make. If those really basic setup adjustments don't put you in the ballpark, I'd try new capacitors before pickups.

[Goldenvoice]

Wow, there's capacitors in there? Who knew? ;)

 

My goal with the Epi is to "dial it in" as close to the 58 as I can. Silly, in a way, but that's the 'idea'. I will certainly play with it more, which brings me to another thought I had while familiarizing myself with it last evening, and this may have to do with pickup height (?)

 

Being over-analytical for as little as I've played it, but asking myself specifically what things are different, the thought popped in my brain: the dynamics seem limited, as if the volume reaches a certain point, and heavier playing doesn't cross the threshold.

 

Is this a weird thought?

[milod]

This is a guess, but it sounds kinda like distance between the strings and pups.

 

I dunno; I do know that I've always considered an electric guitar both an individual and part of a system. I don't know your technique so... it's hard to tell.

 

I fingerpick and haven't really had any guitar I've felt wasn't responsive as long as I could get them to fret well - even guitars I didn't like. But that's just me... I have had a few that were kinda less responsive especially on some strings, and pup altitude adjustments seemed to cover it.

 

m

[Californiaman]

Check out these guys.

Throbak PAF Pickups

[Goldenvoice]

That was the first thought that crossed my mind, that maybe the pickups are so close that they reach their comfortable max-output at 'mid-strength' playing, leaving no headroom for the heavy passages. I'm a long way from knowing any real 'pickup theory' though...

 

Throbak - there's marketing at it's finest, and I'd bet an awesome pickup - Thanks!

[milod]

As for pickup theory... don't feel like the Lone Ranger. <grin>

 

That's why I just suggested considering it.

 

I've personally found that strings can make a huge difference too as well as where and how I pick/pluck strings as a fingerpicker.

 

These darned guitars also are so individual, regardless that they may be the same shape and have the same "hardware," that I really think each one needs consideration on an individual basis.

 

Matt Sear, a forum member and exceptional guitar pro, noted that bit with a guy running a master class was impressed by the tone of a student's guitar - but when he tried it, the guitar sounded far different. I think that plays a role in stuff. Plus... as I said before, what the heck, Joe Pass sounded like Joe Pass with a flatpick on a Fender Jaguar as with an ES175 and fingerpicking.

 

Also your old pots pay have had a lotta wear on them too, just as the frets, and way-different settings on new ones should be there.

 

m

[pippy]

These darned guitars also are so individual, regardless that they may be the same shape and have the same "hardware," that I really think each one needs consideration on an individual basis.

 

Matt Sear, a forum member and exceptional guitar pro, noted that bit with a guy running a master class was impressed by the tone of a student's guitar - but when he tried it, the guitar sounded far different.

 

I agree 100% with all of the above!

 

I'm sure you know very well what you are doing and, equally, I know you will manage to extract the best from your Epi. Probably sooner than later.

 

(And we still want to hear clips...)

 

P.