dubware Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Hi Guys, I'll cut a long story short here - in December last year I sold what I believed to be a genuine Gibson Les Paul. The buyer has now come back to me and is claiming the serial is a fake. Before I refund his money and take back possession of the guitar I'd like to check as best I can that he is at least being honest with me. The serial number in question is as follow: 80645481 Is there anyway to learn conclusively if this is indeed the genuine article or a fake as he claims? In the email I received, he goes on to list a number issues with the guitar suggesting that the serial number is far being the only thing fake about it. Any information about the number and other things to watch for would be very helpful indeed. Many thanks - Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 According to the The Guitar Dater http://www.guitardaterproject.org/gibson.aspx Your guitar was made at the Kalamazoo Plant, USA March 5th, 1985 Production Number: 481 The guy would have to come up with more proof than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubware Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 According to the The Guitar Dater http://www.guitardaterproject.org/gibson.aspx Your guitar was made at the Kalamazoo Plant, USA March 5th, 1985 Production Number: 481 The guy would have to come up with more proof than that. Yes, I'm very suspicious. Firstly, I sold the guitar to guy in London and he is now claiming to have returned to Argentina and wants me to send his money there and he will ship back to me. The least I will do to protect myself is use an escrow service should this indeed prove to be a fake. Secondly, I've been playing Gibsons since the late 70's and have a reasonable amount of faith in my own knowledge of the guitars to have bought it and used myself without suspicion. And thanks for replying so promptly - anything else I should be aware of regarding his claims? I could list all of the problems he claims if it would help. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Plains Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Gibson serial numbers are easy to make up. 012350123, for example. The only way anyone here can tell you is if you post a few pictures of the guitar/headstock. Otherwise, contact Gibson with the serial number and they should be able to tell you a few things about the guitar. Don't send this guy any money until you've confirmed it's fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubware Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 Gibson serial numbers are easy to make up. 012350123, for example. The only way anyone here can tell you is if you post a few pictures of the guitar/headstock. Otherwise, contact Gibson with the serial number and they should be able to tell you a few things about the guitar. Don't send this guy any money until you've confirmed it's fake. Thanks - I was scammed before so I aim to avoid it and will not refund until I am completely sure I myself have sold the buyer a fake. If I have done so I intend to do the right thing by the guy. Here's some pictures of the guitar I took when selling it. . . . As a photographer, I did my level best to make sure the photographs were clear and accurate. I hope they can help in clearing up this issue now, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemoon Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 How did you acquire the guitar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubware Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 How did you acquire the guitar? Came across it in an advert in the Glasgow area of Scotland. Went to meet the buyer, checked it all out and paid for it. Everything about it seemed right to me. Played beautifully, felt right in weight, shape, visuals, and sounded just like the classic Les Paul we all know and love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemoon Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 How old did you think the guitar was when you bought it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubware Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 How old did you think the guitar was when you bought it? The woman I bought it from said circa 1984 and I never doubted it - everything about it was consistent. It showed typical signs of wear and tear for a guitar of it's age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artie Owl Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 The Neck angle, headstock, truss rod cover all look lygit, but I'm more of an SG guy. Had I HAVE to bet on this one I'd say it's real and the guy is just trying to get a refund on something he can't afford anymore or just doesn't want. If you sold it on eBay the fact that it's real doesn't change the fact that this guy will probably try to screw you if you don't do what he wants. The world is full of strange people. Good Luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I'm no expert but the binding at the fret ends looks right to me. That's a detail most fakes won't have. I would contact George Gruhn at Gruhn Guitars in Nashville and see if he can help you out. http://www.gruhn.com/ If the guy were just up the street I might be more flexible but this sounds like a scam or buyers remorse to me. What does he say proves the guitar is fake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 ...In the email I received, he goes on to list a number issues with the guitar suggesting that the serial number is far being the only thing fake about it... Could you tell us what the other issues were? Then we'd have a better idea of how to advise you on the various matters. There is at least one thing which looks to me as not being 'factory issue' but that doesn't mean the guitar is not the genuine article. The binding; bridge; headstock etc...etc...all look legit and they are usually where the obvious fakes fall down badly. There are, of course, really good fakes out there too. P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemoon Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 It just looks in great condition for a 1980s guitar. I guess it could have sat in the case under the bed for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubware Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 The Neck angle, headstock, truss rod cover all look lygit, but I'm more of an SG guy. Had I HAVE to bet on this one I'd say it's real and the guy is just trying to get a refund on something he can't afford anymore or just doesn't want. If you sold it on eBay the fact that it's real doesn't change the fact that this guy will probably try to screw you if you don't do what he wants. The world is full of strange people. Good Luck. It was a private sale, I had no major issues with the guy, he seemed genuine when we spoke and paid by bank transfer prior to me shipping. Even now I'm inclined to think he has been very badly advised regarding it's authenticity. The fact that he and the guitar are now in Argentina helps nothing at all. I'm struggling to think through how I can check on the validity of his claims or otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubware Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 Could you tell us what the other issues were? Then we'd have a better idea of how to advise you on the various matters. There is at least one thing which looks to me as not being 'factory issue' but that doesn't mean the guitar is not the genuine article. The binding; bridge; headstock etc...etc...all look legit and they are usually where the obvious fakes fall down badly. There are, of course, really good fakes out there too. P. Hi and thanks - here is the body of complaints exactly as he listed them in the mail. 1 The serial number print is not from the Gibson company, and the serial number its not real. 2 The neck is not a Gibson 3 The body of the guitar is not made of caoba as it should be on a Gibson standard. 4 The humbuckers are not Gibson or even made in USA. It seems to have been to be P90 but seems to be removed. 5 The neck frets are not the original from a Gibson standard. 6 The standard inscription on the head of the neck is not Gibson original – it is a fake copy 7 The shape and the cavities on the body are not shaped with the Gibson standards. 8 The mic cables are not Gibson originals and have a job to seem to be Gibson standards. 9 The selector switch is not original (it’s the same one used for ephiphone) and apart from that its not working. 10 The bridge is not original, and the origin has been awfully removed. 11 The neck shape its not Gibson standard plus the whole neck has been pasted to the body. 12 The GIBSON script is a complete fake, not original. 13 The tensor neck head is not original, it’s not even on the guitar 14 The mark on the 7th fret has been added trying to imitate a Gibson. 15 The capacitors are not originals. 16 The potenciometers are not Gibson. 17 The tap of the body is not proper in size and it is not the original maple from Gibson - even the unions are not proper. The shape is not smooth as a Gibson original should be. 18 The sound of the guitar plugged its awful and completely noisy. The circuits are all fake and not proper. 19 The circuits cover is not original, it’s not even the same material as Gibson. 20 The humbuckers have been scratched to seem old, but they are not from the year when you told me the guitar was made. There is a lot on that list that directly contradict my impression of the guitar and I simply do not understand point 13. The more I learn about this the more inclined I am to think he is trying to scam me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemoon Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 He is an idiot. The guitar is 25 years old. What does he expect? So some of the original parts have been replaced. My Les Paul is three years old and I have replaced the nut, all the electronics, and the pickups. What does he expect...a factory guitar. I assume you told him that you were not the original owner and that you weren't sure what the original owner had done to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artie Owl Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Yeah I'd say he's just trying to bombard you with crap. The neck IS glued on because that's how they make Les Pauls. If he wants a bolt on there are a bunch of websites out there that'll help him along. Also, can anyone else comment on the caoba wood comment? I thought these were made out of mahogany and the frets were ebony? Edit: found out caoba is a type of mahogany, but I didn't think it was part of the Standard line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artie Owl Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Actually, besides it's a private sale, if he wants a factory Les Paul as Bluemoon mentioned he can pay the premium and not be buying from private sellers, it's a take your chances buyer beware market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 You really need an expert on the mid 80's Lep Paul to solve this riddle. The only two things that look odd to be are the head stock logo and the knobs. I didn't think the 85 standard had a MOP logo and the knobs could have been swapped at any time. But remember this is a 1985. It's from the very end of the Norlin era. All sorts of crazy things were going on then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Hi and thanks - here is the body of complaints exactly as he listed them in the mail. There is a lot on that list that directly contradict my impression of the guitar and I simply do not understand point 13. The more I learn about this the more inclined I am to think he is trying to scam me. CRIKEY! OK. Taking the ponts in order...and just my opinion from looking at those snaps; 1. The serial number is real, although that in its'self doesn't mean the guitar is a genuine Gibson. 2. How on Earth can he tell? From looking at it?, From the feel? Every Gibson Les Paul neck is hand-shaped. They always have been. 3. The body should be made of a mahogany slab with a maple cap. I've no idea what caoba is. I'll check later... 4. It cetrainly should not have P-90s. It should (and does) have a pair of humbuckers. These might have been replaced. Even if they are not the originals; that still doesn't mean it's a fake. 5. How can he say that? I've four LPs and the fret-profiles of each is different. There are also 'nibs' on the fret-ends. A pretty good sign of the frets being original. 6. The 'Standard' on the TRC? It looks genuine to me. 7. I haven't seen them so can't comment. 8. Ditto; but does he claim to know every type of wire used throughout the history of the LP series? 9. Selector switches do occasionally fail. They cost perhaps $15 to replace. 10. The bridge, although reversed, definitely seems to be a real wire-style ABR-1 to me. It aslo seems to be fitted directly into the wood. 11. Pardon? Pasted? WTF... 12. Looks real to me. 13. Is he talking about the Allen-headed truss-rod? If so I can't comment as I've not seen it. 14. ? 15. Gibson have used different makes and values of capacitors on different Les Paul models over the years. They may have been changed. Caps can cost as much as $2 to change... 16. Ditto. CTS; Centralab; Gibson's own name...etc...etc...although they cost more like $20 to swap. 17. The top-carve on of all my LP's is different. The tops are all hand-carved. They do vary. 18. Probably just his playing. 19. I can't comment. 20. The guitar is 27 years old. Can he be sure the wear is not genuine? It does look a bit contrived, however. Even then; many p-up makers artificially age their covers. If they are replacement p-ups... From the snaps you posted I'd think it's a real Les Paul. There's something about the headstock and a few of the crown-inlays that don't look quite right. Furthermore the 'Les Paul model' logo should be distinctly gold. It would appear to be a 'Darkback' from the snaps. How common were these in '85? The maple top also looks slightly different from 'normal' but this was from a period when Gibson were trying out lots of things to improve the Les Paul range so things could have been changing on a near daily basis... Whether he has a case to argue depends more on how you advertised the instrument. Did you say it was 'All-original'? If so then we enter a grey area. We'd need to get a lot more info and photo's of things like the base of the p-ups and detailed shots of the circuit cavity along with all pot-codes. These latter tell us when the pots were made and by whom. I suspect he is either trying to scam you or he has changed his mind about wanting the instrument. It could, of couse, still be a very good copy. It's possible to get headstock transfers and the like on the web. I also know of one individual in Japan who is assembling a LP-style guitar and the neck fitting is 'long-tenon', the fret-ends have 'nibs', the bridge-area is un-drilled so fitting a period-correct ABR-1 bridge would be a piece of cake. When it's completed it would be difficult to tell from a modern 'Historic' were it not for the fact that he won't be putting a Gibson logo on the head. Keep us posted, please! (He didn't mention the strap-buttons, BTW...Shhhhh....) LOL! P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemoon Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Or someone scared him and told him it was fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 My gut reaction is that the guy is scamming you. The guitar seems fine and the fact that he moved to Argentina and wants you to send money to him there kind of smells fishy. Tell him to get a letter from an authorized Gibson dealer that backs up those claims. That'll straighten him out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franzi Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 According to the The Guitar Dater http://www.guitardaterproject.org/gibson.aspx Your guitar was made at the Kalamazoo Plant, USA March 5th, 1985 Production Number: 481 The guy would have to come up with more proof than that. There are some internet sites that supposedly can identify Gibson or Epiphone serial numbers for you. These sites are not run by Gibson and you cannot rely on the information given there. There is no public access to our serial numbers. You can read more on this subject under the following link: http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/Features/beware-web-sites-722/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubware Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 CRIKEY! OK. Taking the ponts in order...and just my opinion from looking at those snaps; 1. The serial number is real, although that in its'self doesn't mean the guitar is a genuine Gibson. 2. How on Earth can he tell? From looking at it?, From the feel? Every Gibson Les Paul neck is hand-shaped. They always have been. 3. The body should be made of a mahogany slab with a maple cap. I've no idea what caoba is. I'll check later... 4. It cetrainly should not have P-90s. It should (and does) have a pair of humbuckers. These might have been replaced. Even if they are not the originals; that still doesn't mean it's a fake. 5. How can he say that? I've four LPs and the fret-profiles of each is different. There are also 'nibs' on the fret-ends. A pretty good sign of the frets being original. 6. The 'Standard' on the TRC? It looks genuine to me. 7. I haven't seen them so can't comment. 8. Ditto; but does he claim to know every type of wire used throughout the history of the LP series? 9. Selector switches do occasionally fail. They cost perhaps $15 to replace. 10. The bridge, although reversed, definitely seems to be a real wire-style ABR-1 to me. It aslo seems to be fitted directly into the wood. 11. Pardon? Pasted? WTF... 12. Looks real to me. 13. Is he talking about the Allen-headed truss-rod? If so I can't comment as I've not seen it. 14. ? 15. Gibson have used different makes and values of capacitors on different Les Paul models over the years. They may have been changed. Caps can cost as much as $2 to change... 16. Ditto. CTS; Centralab; Gibson's own name...etc...etc...although they cost more like $20 to swap. 17. The top-carve on of all my LP's is different. The tops are all hand-carved. They do vary. 18. Probably just his playing. 19. I can't comment. 20. The guitar is 27 years old. Can he be sure the wear is not genuine? It does look a bit contrived, however. Even then; many p-up makers artificially age their covers. If they are replacement p-ups... From the snaps you posted I'd think it's a real Les Paul. There's something about the headstock and a few of the crown-inlays that don't look quite right. Furthermore the 'Les Paul model' logo should be distinctly gold. It would appear to be a 'Darkback' from the snaps. How common were these in '85? The maple top also looks slightly different from 'normal' but this was from a period when Gibson were trying out lots of things to improve the Les Paul range so things could have been changing on a near daily basis... Whether he has a case to argue depends more on how you advertised the instrument. Did you say it was 'All-original'? If so then we enter a grey area. We'd need to get a lot more info and photo's of things like the base of the p-ups and detailed shots of the circuit cavity along with all pot-codes. These latter tell us when the pots were made and by whom. I suspect he is either trying to scam you or he has changed his mind about wanting the instrument. It could, of couse, still be a very good copy. It's possible to get headstock transfers and the like on the web. I also know of one individual in Japan who is assembling a LP-style guitar and the neck fitting is 'long-tenon', the fret-ends have 'nibs', the bridge-area is un-drilled so fitting a period-correct ABR-1 bridge would be a piece of cake. When it's completed it would be difficult to tell from a modern 'Historic' were it not for the fact that he won't be putting a Gibson logo on the head. Keep us posted, please! (He didn't mention the strap-buttons, BTW...Shhhhh....) LOL! P. I don't know how to thank you guys - I'm now comfortable that he has had seriously bad and ill-informed advice. The emails prior to speaking were general and I talked a length with him about the guitar, at no time did I even hint the guitar was all original. I have enough experience of my own to know there would be a chance that pots and what not could have been changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff-7 Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Sounds to me like he is just trying to scam you out of some cash, if you did refund him that guitar wouldn't leave Argentina I will guarantee that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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