A stupid question I proposed

[Silenced Fred]

I read that and got confused.

 

I'll buy a Jazzmaster

[milod]

My one concern about any move of a guitar factory - including quite frankly USA brands ranging from Gibbie to Martin - from one region to another is a matter of climate.

 

I'm personally convinced that some problems mentioned in the Gibson forums with guitars is a matter of rapid changes in "climate" around a guitar. Memphis is quite humid, for example, and a laminated guitar going from a 70F 90 percent humidity at that particular altitude to or even through a dry climate well below the freezing point of water could be long-term disastrous to wood fibers, especially where it joins other woods.

 

I think the Epis in China that I've seen have been quite good, but I do worry about the effects of climate more than on a Nashville or Bozeman guitar, even a Nazareth guitar.

 

So I'd disagree that even if a Gibson (or Martin) factory went to China, complete to woods, hardware and personnel, it would quite be the same. There are too many factors involved with woods, humidity, etc.

 

In fact, I'm also convinced personally that some of the difficulties mentioned by folks getting U.S. guitars overseas could well have to do with climate and shipping, regardless that it may well have been in a sealed container. Shipping is much faster overall than 50 years ago regardless.

 

As I said, I haven't played am Epi that had too much in the way of problem - a high fret, perhaps, but not a real problem. But I think also that the proof will come as some of these instruments age. Will my Dot be playable in 30 years if given good care? I dunno. Right now it's quite nice.

 

m

[ksdaddy]

When you buy a Gibson, you're buying more than just a bunch of lumber glued together. You're buying bragging rights, heritage, visions of Hank Williams Sr, Merle Travis, or Jimmy Page. Many of us grew up wishing for a "real Gibson" and maybe we had cheap Ventura copies in the 70s but when we were financially able, we went out and bought the real deal.

 

If anyone has to ask why we are willing to pay thousands of dollars for that, then they'll never know. And so be it. If someone were to ask me why my J200 cost as much as it did, I wouldn't have a good answer for them. I suppose it would be like trying to explain why I would prefer to live in a stick-built house with a full foundation (at its cost) than I would live in a prefab on a slab (at its cost). The person who's only looking for cheap functional shelter doesn't see the intrinsic value, long term investment value, and piece of mind that you have a quality product. Some of us are willing to pay for that.

 

If it all boiled down to workmanship and value for the dollar, then they might as well shut down Bozeman, Nashville, and Memphis and ship all the machinery to China and get it over with. For some of us, it still means something to own an American made guitar and we're willing to pay for it; God forbid it has a flaw made by human hands... the Chinese CNC machines would never do that.

 

I've been to Bozeman and saw the loveable goofballs that work there. They seem to love what they do, they're not machines and they're not just cranking out a product to meet a quota. They're in a safe working environment, they often rotate work stations to avoid things like carpal tunnel or repetitive motion problems, they smile at work, it's pleasant there.... it's all good.

 

If you buy a Chinese Epiphone because you prefer it, or if it's all you can afford, and you're happy with it, then amen. Nobody is twisting anyone's arm to buy American. On the contrary, it seems like we get besieged by people that keep bringing up the matter of "what if Gibsons were made in China?" Gibson guitars are made in the USA. That's the way it's been and hopefully that's how it will continue to be. If it's made offshore, they can put the Gibson logo on it but it will never be a Gibson. Or should I mention the Garrison fiasco? That went well, didn't it?

 

If Henry wants to make a move then I wish he'd just do it and be done with it. He won't get another nickel out of me though.

[stein]

I love my Gibbys AND Epis.......If the senerio is like you state, Epis......

 

I've been recording these days, my best Gibby has two broken tuners, so, until I fix this one Gibby ( I don't like my other Gibby LPs for recording),

I'm using mostly Epis and Fenders......What this has to do with the tea in China is that an upgraded Epi CAN be better than many current

Gibbys I try out in stores these days...................Hmmm.........So many flaws in them.....

 

( A quick hijack Andy, what tuning pegs are direct replacements for a 2010 LP Traditional Plus, if you know; Rather than upgrade a whole set, I'g rather buy a direct replacement set and replace the two broken ones.)

a quick trip to the twefth fret would do the trick. (ok, i have a serious spelling disease today).

[stein]

ok, ok, you really want it, i warn you my spelling is particularly bad today. and as for the capitols and grammer and such, just so you know, my typing really sucks but here you go....

 

the idea and the fact that the chinese build junk and can only build junk is a myth. the truth is that there are some good craftsmen in china, as well as korea and japan. we tend to view chinese craftsmanship and manufacturing based on our experience with what is imported. when it comes to manufacturing, china is actually a lot further ahead than most realize. they actually build, right now, a jet fighter that is the equal or better than the f-16, not a copy but thier own design, as well as the weapon systems and computers associated with that, and have stealth prototypes, at LEAST in prototype. as far as technology goes, and as far as manufactuering goes, (these go hand in hand) they are not only up to the level, but are getting a LOT of practice.

 

another point is about the ethics of chinese business practices. as far as business goes what we experience here in the united states tends to be more representative of the most unethical of the chinese, but if you take the poeple as a whole, are very different. they are humble, caring, and for the most part care about others as much as anyone i have ever come across, at least the ones i have met here, and do not resemble those that we experience doing unethical business practices. the same could be said of the opinions of americans experienced by the majority of the middle east.

 

now, when it comes to quality, the lack of in chinese products has to do solely with what they are asked to build by the american companies that contract them to build them for distribution here. it has nothing to do with "made in america" and not being able to afford a quality product at a cheap price, but the amount of money that can be made exploiting a workforce. it cost far more to have materiels shipped to china and products shipped back, but the gains in profit come from the lack of responsibilty by handing over business to others. in cases where there is no longer a manufacturing base for a product here, the price goes up. the quality may go up to, as demands are made. the point here is that even though a profit margin may be less importing and exporting, the profit comes from not having to deal with laws and risk of making here, and thus an easier profit. it is not so much a matter of which is better, but being able to adjust cost to a point lower than the laws of making things here allow.

 

the whole rant is to make a point that it is the businessmen on both sides, american and chinese, that are the controlling factor in quality. the option of having someone work all day for the price of lunch is what controls the risk involved, and thus the possibilities. regardless of quality and profit margin, the economy is affected by the fact that the wealth stays with the distributer, not nessesarily if the distributer is ethical or not. if the laws were changed to where the option to have americans work all day for the price of lunch, it would be harder to do that because that may involve looking someone directly in the eye and facing our effect on others.

 

so, the answer to the proposal is this: it is not just a matter of what i get in return for my money, but how i feel about who gets it. i work hard for mine, and when it leaves my hands i like to know it went to someone i wanted to have it. i feel a hell of a lot better paying more to someone i think deserves it than saving money to have it all go to someone who does not.

[Andy R]

When you buy a Gibson, you're buying more than just a bunch of lumber glued together. You're buying bragging rights, heritage, visions of Hank Williams Sr, Merle Travis, or Jimmy Page. Many of us grew up wishing for a "real Gibson" and maybe we had cheap Ventura copies in the 70s but when we were financially able, we went out and bought the real deal.

 

If anyone has to ask why we are willing to pay thousands of dollars for that, then they'll never know. And so be it. If someone were to ask me why my J200 cost as much as it did, I wouldn't have a good answer for them. I suppose it would be like trying to explain why I would prefer to live in a stick-built house with a full foundation (at its cost) than I would live in a prefab on a slab (at its cost). The person who's only looking for cheap functional shelter doesn't see the intrinsic value, long term investment value, and piece of mind that you have a quality product. Some of us are willing to pay for that.

 

If it all boiled down to workmanship and value for the dollar, then they might as well shut down Bozeman, Nashville, and Memphis and ship all the machinery to China and get it over with. For some of us, it still means something to own an American made guitar and we're willing to pay for it; God forbid it has a flaw made by human hands... the Chinese CNC machines would never do that.

 

I've been to Bozeman and saw the loveable goofballs that work there. They seem to love what they do, they're not machines and they're not just cranking out a product to meet a quota. They're in a safe working environment, they often rotate work stations to avoid things like carpal tunnel or repetitive motion problems, they smile at work, it's pleasant there.... it's all good.

 

If you buy a Chinese Epiphone because you prefer it, or if it's all you can afford, and you're happy with it, then amen. Nobody is twisting anyone's arm to buy American. On the contrary, it seems like we get besieged by people that keep bringing up the matter of "what if Gibsons were made in China?" Gibson guitars are made in the USA. That's the way it's been and hopefully that's how it will continue to be. If it's made offshore, they can put the Gibson logo on it but it will never be a Gibson. Or should I mention the Garrison fiasco? That went well, didn't it?

 

If Henry wants to make a move then I wish he'd just do it and be done with it. He won't get another nickel out of me though.

 

Now that's what i'm talking about.! An answer with some thought and passion behind it. I apologize to add to the " besiege" as I guess I haven't been here long enough to have seen this question posed like I have here since I have been on the forum. Actually my scenario was really nothing to do with Chinese quality being better (or worst) or really even pricing as much as where does the "Brand loyalty" compare to the "Made in USA" factor. With the point being if you took all those lovable goofballs and human flaws and everything that happens here in the US and moved them all to China and the Gibson brand was now made only in China would you remain brand loyal, would you remain made in the US loyal, or would it matter so long as the Guitar its self remained absolutely the same.

 

I also appreciate Milod's thoughts (well thought and articulated as always) but again this is just a scenario not a could it be done question...

 

I think you have made your stance clear and I appreciate you taking the time to write more than a quick remark and putting some thought behind it. If my post aggravated you I apologize. I like to understand people and their reasoning. This isn't "a right or wrong answer question" I just like to understand how people think... What is important to them and why? I ask questions because I am open minded and occasionally people make good points that change my view of things or at least broaden them a little more.

 

 

I too am passionate about Gibson guitars and others. I'm probably a bit more jaded concerning things that i know that go on in the guitar industry. I also don't get too worked up one way or the other when it comes to people's personal opinions on whether or not they think that what I buy is too expensive, not made well or a big POS. My personal feeling is that the last real Gibson guitar was made at the Kalamazoo factory with those machines and those lovable quirky people. I also believe that those guitars are the ones that will retain and increase in value as time moves on. I'm not so sure about the newer stuff unless it is the artificially inflated value created by limited runs and artist models... I could be wrong and I hope so as I have a couple of Nashville Gibby's too. I don't happen to own an Epiphone not because I wouldn't I just don't need one.

 

Again thanks for the response and I can relate to where your coming from....

[Andy R]

ok, ok, you really want it, i warn you my spelling is particularly bad today. and as for the capitols and grammer and such, just so you know, my typing really sucks but here you go....

 

the idea and the fact that the chinese build junk and can only build junk is a myth. the truth is that there are some good craftsmen in china, as well as korea and japan. we tend to view chinese craftsmanship and manufacturing based on our experience with what is imported. when it comes to manufacturing, china is actually a lot further ahead than most realize. they actually build, right now, a jet fighter that is the equal or better than the f-16, not a copy but thier own design, as well as the weapon systems and computers associated with that, and have stealth prototypes, at LEAST in prototype. as far as technology goes, and as far as manufactuering goes, (these go hand in hand) they are not only up to the level, but are getting a LOT of practice.

 

another point is about the ethics of chinese business practices. as far as business goes what we experience here in the united states tends to be more representative of the most unethical of the chinese, but if you take the poeple as a whole, are very different. they are humble, caring, and for the most part care about others as much as anyone i have ever come across, at least the ones i have met here, and do not resemble those that we experience doing unethical business practices. the same could be said of the opinions of americans experienced by the majority of the middle east.

 

now, when it comes to quality, the lack of in chinese products has to do solely with what they are asked to build by the american companies that contract them to build them for distribution here. it has nothing to do with "made in america" and not being able to afford a quality product at a cheap price, but the amount of money that can be made exploiting a workforce. it cost far more to have materiels shipped to china and products shipped back, but the gains in profit come from the lack of responsibilty by handing over business to others. in cases where there is no longer a manufacturing base for a product here, the price goes up. the quality may go up to, as demands are made. the point here is that even though a profit margin may be less importing and exporting, the profit comes from not having to deal with laws and risk of making here, and thus an easier profit. it is not so much a matter of which is better, but being able to adjust cost to a point lower than the laws of making things here allow.

 

the whole rant is to make a point that it is the businessmen on both sides, american and chinese, that are the controlling factor in quality. the option of having someone work all day for the price of lunch is what controls the risk involved, and thus the possibilities. regardless of quality and profit margin, the economy is affected by the fact that the wealth stays with the distributer, not nessesarily if the distributer is ethical or not. if the laws were changed to where the option to have americans work all day for the price of lunch, it would be harder to do that because that may involve looking someone directly in the eye and facing our effect on others.

 

so, the answer to the proposal is this: it is not just a matter of what i get in return for my money, but how i feel about who gets it. i work hard for mine, and when it leaves my hands i like to know it went to someone i wanted to have it. i feel a hell of a lot better paying more to someone i think deserves it than saving money to have it all go to someone who does not.

 

 

Agreed and you and I seem to be on the same page about most things.... This included. Thanks to you too Stein for your well thought feedback....

[ChanMan]

I disagree with the premise that a short and concise reply is not well thought out, and that only verbose replies are.

 

 

My reply was well thought out, took all of the proposed scenario into consideration and stated my view quite succintly.

 

My aplogies if the intellect it took to arrive at my conclusion was not as readily apparent as I anticipated.

 

[stein]

I disagree with the premise that a short and concise reply is not well thought out, and that only verbose replies are.

 

 

My reply was well thought out, took all of the proposed scenario into consideration and stated my view quite succintly.

 

My aplogies if the intellect it took to arrive at my conclusion was not as readily apparent as I anticipated.

 

I complete agree with you, if I am to understand you correctly, that an intelligent, thought out and complete answer could be expressed in a few words. At the same time, an individual reading only a few words could extrapulate from that a great deal of information by simply taking the time to compare the content of the origional question along with the information given in the answer in order to draw intelligent conclusions about what is being said. In addition to that, I could assume perhaps that there are obvious points that could be assumed that would require no explanation, such as restating the obvious. In such cases, the very act of restating the obvious could prove to take so much energy as to distract from the thought process. In these cases, the short answer would be the most intelligent answer.

 

This above, is in fact an explanation of why, in my case, why I tend to write long explanations. Even as the the perception of intelligence may be altered by incorrect spelling. This, a symptom of a lack of typing ability might make you grateful in the realization that in person I could be far more long winded than anything you might read.

[Andy R]

I complete agree with you, if I am to understand you correctly, that an intelligent, thought out and complete answer could be expressed in a few words. At the same time, an individual reading only a few words could extrapulate from that a great deal of information by simply taking the time to compare the content of the origional question along with the information given in the answer in order to draw intelligent conclusions about what is being said. In addition to that, I could assume perhaps that there are obvious points that could be assumed that would require no explanation, such as restating the obvious. In such cases, the very act of restating the obvious could prove to take so much energy as to distract from the thought process. In these cases, the short answer would be the most intelligent answer.

 

This above, is in fact an explanation of why, in my case, why I tend to write long explanations. Even as the the perception of intelligence may be altered by incorrect spelling. This, a symptom of a lack of typing ability might make you grateful in the realization that in person I could be far more long winded than anything you might read.

 

Stein,

He's just messing with me (and you) and his concise statement did take in the facts. ChanMan only cares about tone and playability and isn't as hung up on brand names and where stuff is made as some of the others. ( this I believe of him and I expected no more or less ) so for him it was an honest and complete answer. I also didn't mean that some of the other answers were not thought out just because they were short. The evasive answers without really addressing the question posed was what I was nagging about. They might have been honest but there was little to no justification which is the interesting part of the topic to me. If you would just buy a fender...Why? etc...

 

I'm starting to learn my lesson here and need to just keep topics to "what do you think is cool?" or "Check out my new guitar...." or again stay in my little hole at the top of the page.... and leave it at that. Maybe I can PM you if I have a question, thought or scenario of any depth.....

 

 

 

Andy

[stein]

Stein,

He's just messing with me (and you) and his concise statement did take in the facts. ChanMan only cares about tone and playability and isn't as hung up on brand names and where stuff is made as some of the others. ( this I believe of him and I expected no more or less ) so for him it was an honest and complete answer. I also didn't mean that some of the other answers were not thought out just because they were short. The evasive answers without really addressing the question posed was what I was nagging about. They might have been honest but there was little to no justification which is the interesting part of the topic to me. If you would just buy a fender...Why? etc...

 

I'm starting to learn my lesson here and need to just keep topics to "what do you think is cool?" or "Check out my new guitar...." or again stay in my little hole at the top of the page.... and leave it at that. Maybe I can PM you if I have a question, thought or scenario of any depth.....

 

 

 

Andy

you know, i was laughing the whole time i wrote that. i thought he was being truthful, as well as maybe poking a little fun. there is a limit to the seriousness one can be expected to have until humor kicks in, but there is no limit to the lenth of some of our post, limited only by our attention span and ability to type.

 

you are more than welcome to pm me, but don't get the idea that people don't like your long winded post. i don't think that would be accurate.

 

just for the record, as much as i like to think deep about stuff, i enjoy the goofy behaivior of some of the guys here too.

[stein]

andy:

 

1st off, just my opinion, but the question you asked is both an important question as it relates to the heart and soul of gibson guitars, and raises some important questions about the american/globol economy and who we are as poeple.

 

what is not opinion, is the amount of insightful, intelligent answers that are here by others. there is some good stuff here.

 

between the thoughtful serious answers and the goofy, stupid ones poking fun, i think it safe to say we all enjoy it.

 

please change the title back.

[damian]

If a Gibson falls in a forest, does anybody hear ???

 

.......

[saturn]

 

I'm starting to learn my lesson here and need to just keep topics to "what do you think is cool?" or "Check out my new guitar...." or again stay in my little hole at the top of the page.... and leave it at that. Maybe I can PM you if I have a question, thought or scenario of any depth.....

 

 

 

Andy

 

Andy, your being kinda hard on yourself. Don't take it too personal if not everyone responds to your posts or puts as much effort in to an answer as you. I for one enjoy reading and pondering the questions you pose, even if I am too lazy to add my own thoughts on the subject

[ksdaddy]

I don't mind heavy questions. If I have a heavy answer I'll respond. If not, I won't. Kinda like when I go into the voting booth and there's a referendum or bond question I don't understand. I just skip it. If it pokes me in the ribs, I'll vote on it.

 

Keep up the questions, Andy.

[surfpup]

I'm starting to learn my lesson here and need to just keep topics to "what do you think is cool?" or "Check out my new guitar...." or again stay in my little hole at the top of the page.... and leave it at that.

 

Sounds like the honeymoon is over.

[Andy R]

Andy, your being kinda hard on yourself. Don't take it too personal if not everyone responds to your posts or puts as much effort in to an answer as you. I for one enjoy reading and pondering the questions you pose, even if I am too lazy to add my own thoughts on the subject

 

 

 

 

Thanks I appreciate it but It's really not a "taking it personal thing" so much as "if it is a fun to do thing". I enjoy being on the forum because I have fun with everyone here. I think I may have put a few people off of me but I can honestly say I have no issues with anyone here in anyway.

 

Regardless, concerning the " Think Posts" I'm pretty much over them as they end up not being much fun and I usually put more time into thinking about and writing them than I get in return ( from an enjoyment factor) so it becomes a point of diminishing returns for me. I am also a wicked smart A$S as well and have what most consider a pretty humorous personality and enjoy adding the chuckle here and there. I think I will stick with that for now.

 

So with that I will leave you with these words of wisdom............

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SCREW YOU GUYS! I'M GOIN' HOME!

 

 

[stein]

i for one enjoy the thought provoking, deep threads you start, and i get a huge amount of enjoyment out of them. personally, more do than any other poster i read. i also enjoy the responces from the other posters that follow suit on your postings (talking about the deep ones here).

 

you certainly don't owe us anything, but the point should be clear that you are not the only one that gets something out of your deep style post.

 

i have no right to speak for everyone, but reading some of the other responces tells me that others have the same feelings.