Duende Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 On the Randy Rhoads board Ultimate Rhoads, an often heated debate re occurs over Randy Rhoads's 'borrowing' from the Cuban composer Leo Brouwer in his and Ozzy's piece Diary Of A Madman. Many randy fans point blank refuse to admit the similarities and insist it is coincidence. Anyway, I have made this videos playing the Etude and then Diary Of A Madman back to back and then played the chords so you can see the similarities (and differences!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itsF3adfnDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Matt... I'm reminded of Schumann's "happy farmer" and the American "fiddle tune" called Red Wing. I think sometimes there are intentional borrowings, sometimes there are subconscious borrowings and sometimes... well, "we" are part of a musical culture that lends itself to pop music borrowings. "We" have used many chord progessions as standards with only slight variation. I think there are only so many melodic lines that can come from them. Again, sometimes I think "we" respond to what we have heard that may not at all be an intentional copy of something else. The Beatles "My sweet lord" might be an example when compared to the earlier Motown piece "He's so fine." The bottom line on that complex lawsuit other than corporate gamesmanship was what was termed "subconscious plagiarism." I find that rather interesting... m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimbabig Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4nCy5CITc8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAuYaeQjBXc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Did those guy freak out when they were told that the opening to the solo for "Over the Mountain" was an Iomi riff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Wow that is an interesting video Matt, if you lived in Nashville I would so take lessons from you. IMO all guitarists "borrow" from others that came before, nothing wrong with that if you put your own interpretation on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 To put a fine point on what MILOD said, there are MANY forms of music in which it is perfectly acceptable (and expected) to use the same chord progression, and even the same melody for the vocal line. Blues, Folk forms, etc. Specifically, DIARY contains as the main "lick" probably the most common Spanish type riff. DUH!! If you are PURPOSELY borrowing from classical music, or playing classical scales and melodies, you would of course naturally use commonly known and heard music that has been established and known. I make a point. To me, what makes a COMPETENT musician and/or songwriter (composer, if you can accept it) is how well one can USE and adapt music that has been played, NOT how much one avoids it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 If you are PURPOSELY borrowing from classical music, or playing classical scales and melodies, you would of course naturally use commonly known and heard music that has been established and known. Stein me old mucker (friendly cockney by Matt Van Dyke ;) ) The thing is with this Cuban piece (not Spanish - sorry to sound pedantic ) is that it is not 'well known' and also was written in the 70's, so VERY recently. By your logic it would probably be better to use an out of copyright well known piece, by say Bach, Beethoven, Mozart etc...that would make sense? So while I agree with your point about borrowing/reworking etc in music being completely fine (and it has always been done too ), the points are 1) as the piece was in copyright, it wouldn't have hurt for the band/Randy to acknowledge this, ethically and legally 2. The chord sequence is so unusual that it's use in 'Diary' sticks out like a sore thumb, in a way that borrowing a progression from say a piece of folk music wouldn't (I use the word folk to cover various countries music as it all uses very simple harmonies). Leo Brouwer, the composer, is one of the most important figures of the 20 and 21st century , not just in classical guitar, but contemporary classical music, he is only 72 years old now. He originally began legal proceedings against Ozzy Osbourne after Diary Of A Madman's release, but after the tragic accident with Randy, let it go. I was always touched by that. I am sure Randy borrowed it without thinking too much about it. The last thirty years the Diary Of A Madman song has become one of Ozzy's most loved songs and the album has sold like hot cakes. Meanwhile Leo Brouwer, in mine and many people's eyes, a modern day genius, lives today thirty years later without a penny from this. Yes, It is one of many musical injustices, but it still leaves a sour taste to me. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Matt... I take it then that you are convinced it is conscious, not subconscious "plagiarism?" I hadn't seen anything on this particular case, but it sounds interesting that a chord progression and notes from a "classical" study piece converted to a rock song would be considered under law "copyright infringement." I definitely see your point. I'm just curious how our courts might perceive things. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 I don't think the composer would have won 'on paper', because as I believe, the using of a chord progression is 'okay' and not illegal. What would had made this case fascinating was that the chord progression was too much of an unusual one to have 'stumbled across and there were other grey areas that made it a little different. Milo To paraphrase the Ozzy story, it goes something like.. Randy was practising Brouwer's etude in a hotel room and Ozzy was getting ready and when he heard it said "that sounds fuc*ing amazing and would sound amazing in one of my songs" This story was in print and would be good evidence for Mr Brouwer's court case (and a little incriminating for Ozzy LOL) By the way Milo, here is Diary Of A Madman, see what you think of it as just a great piece to listen to! It is one of Ozzy's best pieces [thumbup] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_x73QVW2-g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Matt... Interesting, all of it. I'll freely admit I'm no fan of Osbourne, but it's an interesting piece. Hmmm... Showing my age with that comment, eh? I have to admit I'm more intrigued by potential copyright questions on this one. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 MATT: I was not really being specific to the two pieces in my comment. But, having listened carefully to your demonstration and comments, I MAY have an opinion. While Brouwer's piece DOES sound unique, I doubt it is the first use of that chord progression, regardless of how HE came up with it. There is a uniqueness to it in the voicings and execution, but depending on your point of reference, SOME may hear things differently, i.e. some may hear other things in a piece. Specific to BOTH pieces, Mr. Rhodes does change the chords enough to make them both different progressions. I also hear, in DIARY, a waltz, which I don't hear in the first. In fact, I hear MANY blendings of various classical styles in that song-I think it is part of his genius as a songwriter. To be sure, I can agree that the DIARY composition contains a HUGE tip of the hat to Mr. Brouwer, and the styling and voicing is unmistakable. I also think it would be wrong to NOT acknowledge Mr. Brouwer's work when referring to the voicings and origin of the DIARY piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 MATT: I was not really being specific to the two pieces in my comment. But, having listened carefully to your demonstration and comments, I MAY have an opinion. Of course! I have re read my post and can't see why you would think otherwise? a discussion is always fun with different thoughts. Specific to BOTH pieces, Mr. Rhodes does change the chords enough to make them both different progressions. It is also Rhoads, not Rhodes (sorry I am screwing with you :) ) Stein, they are EXACTLY the same chords until the cadence. They are not almost the same or re modelled, but exactly the same (The video explains it better than me typing away which is one of the reasons I made it). I know so may things in music are matters of opinions but these chords until the cadence are identical. It is at 0:37 that Diary deviates slightly from the original. While Brouwer's piece DOES sound unique, I doubt it is the first use of that chord progression, regardless of how HE came up with it. Damn it Mr stein (LOL) I am so confident you will never find another piece prior to this piece with identical chords, I will wire you $100 if you can send me evidence via an article clip etc! To be sure, I can agree that the DIARY composition contains a HUGE tip of the hat to Mr. Brouwer, and the styling and voicing is unmistakable. I also think it would be wrong to NOT acknowledge Mr. Brouwer's work when referring to the voicings and origin of the DIARY piece. I agree Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturn Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 As unique and complex as the this chord progression is, it's hard to believe that it's a coincidence. On the other hand, like Matt says in folk, rock or pop music it's much easier to stumble on the same chords. Melody though... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS1z2inwJ2o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dem00n Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Eco friendly music... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 As unique and complex as the this chord progression is, it's hard to believe that it's a coincidence. On the other hand, like Matt says in folk, rock or pop music it's much easier to stumble on the same chords. Melody though... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS1z2inwJ2o LMAO!! That was great ;) I love the way it ends too with "I believe your lies..." Saturn do you remember this making the headlines? It is The famous Coldplay - Joe Satriani 'similarity' This guys has superimposed the Satch song over the Coldplay one...this is great fun http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tWjja5HIWU&feature=related Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I think in a way we might tend to favor those musicians we like more than those we don't. I admit, I have far more respect for Satch as a musician than Coldplay, so I think he deserves credit. In both of the above cases though, it is not just a part that is the same, but the whole songs, and not just the chord progressions, but the timing, the rhythm, and the meaningful notes of the melodies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimbabig Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I'm sure cryptomnesia plays a part in some of these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturn Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I remember the Satch/Coldplay controversy. I think I first read about it on these boards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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