The Fuzz that was... Nothing to do with Fred!

[Andy R]

I know what I like in an amp but I'm not an expert in what makes them sound that way so I'll but out of that part of the debate.

 

What I can comment on are pickups. Just to keep things simple I'll limit this to the coils and magnets of a Gibson style humbucker only. The standard is the late 50s PAF humbucker which features

 

Alnico 5 magnet,

5000 turns of 42GA plain enamel magnet wire.

DC resistance of 7K

 

Coil Matching: If these coils were perfectly matched they would have zero noise and a very clear flat sound. If we mismatch them slightly we start to notice a richer and fuller sound with more overtones. This is because when we start to cancel hum we also cancel some of the signal. As we start to mismatch the coils a bit the frequency response of the coils are no longer perfect mirror images of each other. This means when we over lay them there are fewer places where the frequencies match up so there is less signal crenelation. However if we mismatch the coils too far then the 60 cycle hum (if you're in the USA) starts to creep back into the signal.

 

Now... lets say we want to passively boost the output of out pickup. There are two ways to do this. One is by using a stronger magnetic field. The other is by wrapping more wire around the bobbin.

 

Coil Size: First let's look at the coil size. One of the first guys to really over wide a Gibson Humbucker was Seymour Duncan. He put this pickup in the bridge position of a Les Paul for Jeff Beck and history was made. He did this by putting 7000 turns of 43ga wire on each bobbin. This gave the bridge pickup a lot more output. But everything has a price. The price for the gain in output was a loss of high frequency. Some might call it a "darker" tone. This is just how it goes. Increasing output by adding wire to the bobbin results in a loss of highs. The more wire you add... the darker (some say muddier) it sounds.

 

Magnetic Field Power: So how do we boost output without making things too muddy? Well, you can get a stronger magnets. Replacing the Alnico 5 magnet with a more powerful Ceramic magnet will boost output and can really spike high frequency response. Some say this is a brighter sound (some call it icepick through the head).

 

The best designs try to balance these two aspects of pickup design.

 

While I have made many of them I have found that I'm not a huge fan of super high gain humbuckers for my personal guitars. I think a neck humbucker with an Alnico 5 magnet and a coil set that uses a a matched pair of coils around 4500 turns of 42ga and a bridge pickup using one coil with 5700 turns and the other with 6700 turns of 43ga give me enough punch and grit but it clean up nice it I want it too.

 

But if you then run that output through a 20 foot cable and 5 or 6 unbuffered stomp boxes you will have killed all those carefully balanced highs and upper mids your pickups made so... it's all small parts of the big picture. It all adds up.

 

Excellent this is exactly what I was talking about. Have you noticed how different combinations create either more of the sandy distortion or the more gravel type distortion?

[AlanH]

 

Sorry but Dave isn't going to get his tone and gain from Angus's "Let There Be Rock" Rig regardless of his technique.

 

 

 

Nah, he doesn't even need the amp. Just a guitar and his fingers will do the job....

 

If you know the song 'Lucretia':

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKCsIMtXD8E

 

...and here's the album version for comparison:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmyAvInKhuA

[Andy R]

Nah, he doesn't even need the amp. Just a guitar and his fingers will do the job....

 

If you know the song 'Lucretia':

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKCsIMtXD8E

 

...and here's the album version for comparison:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmyAvInKhuA

 

Wow... Amazing i could hardly tell them apart.....

[Searcy]

:lol:

 

 

I think I heard a slight difference in tone. I think it's the lack of a cable.

[stein]

I think that pre-amp distortion sounds different than power-amp distortion, for sure. I think, for the most part, that power-amp distortion has more of the larger grain, while pre-amp distortion has more sizzle and "fuzz".

 

I think it is especially true of marshall DNA type amps that we work on more of a balance between the two, and use BOTH to fine tune the sound we want. I think this is what makes a JCM-800 sound different than a JMP, the JCM having more pre-amp gain. Like the difference between an AC-DC type crunch and that metallic type roar.

 

To be sure, I think nearly all of us (who crank an amp) are using more than one FORM of overdrive. A Marshall, by the time it is getting power-amp distortion, is also getting pre-amp distortion. So, what we hear is a compressed overdriven signal being overdriven. We exasperate this if and when we use pedals. But, we can back off this as well, allowing the pre-amp to run more clean and let the power-amp do the driving and grinding.

 

For me, this is where it gets interesting.

[Silenced Fred]

I think that pre-amp distortion sounds different than power-amp distortion, for sure. I think, for the most part, that power-amp distortion has more of the larger grain, while pre-amp distortion has more sizzle and "fuzz".

 

I think it is especially true of marshall DNA type amps that we work on more of a balance between the two, and use BOTH to fine tune the sound we want. I think this is what makes a JCM-800 sound different than a JMP, the JCM having more pre-amp gain. Like the difference between an AC-DC type crunch and that metallic type roar.

 

To be sure, I think nearly all of us (who crank an amp) are using more than one FORM of overdrive. A Marshall, by the time it is getting power-amp distortion, is also getting pre-amp distortion. So, what we hear is a compressed overdriven signal being overdriven. We exasperate this if and when we use pedals. But, we can back off this as well, allowing the pre-amp to run more clean and let the power-amp do the driving and grinding.

 

For me, this is where it gets interesting.

 

Its all about the power amp gain. That's why I'm not a big fan of master volume amps, I like to get em both working, but power amp is where its at for sure. That deeper darker sound just melts me. That's why I like fuzz, its deeper for the most part, and that's why I don't particularily like distortion.

 

btw, everything has to do with Fred, how long have you been on this forum Andy, its all about me, all the time <_<

[Andy R]

I think that pre-amp distortion sounds different than power-amp distortion, for sure. I think, for the most part, that power-amp distortion has more of the larger grain, while pre-amp distortion has more sizzle and "fuzz".

 

I think it is especially true of marshall DNA type amps that we work on more of a balance between the two, and use BOTH to fine tune the sound we want. I think this is what makes a JCM-800 sound different than a JMP, the JCM having more pre-amp gain. Like the difference between an AC-DC type crunch and that metallic type roar.

 

To be sure, I think nearly all of us (who crank an amp) are using more than one FORM of overdrive. A Marshall, by the time it is getting power-amp distortion, is also getting pre-amp distortion. So, what we hear is a compressed overdriven signal being overdriven. We exasperate this if and when we use pedals. But, we can back off this as well, allowing the pre-amp to run more clean and let the power-amp do the driving and grinding.

 

For me, this is where it gets interesting.

 

 

Its all about the power amp gain. That's why I'm not a big fan of master volume amps, I like to get em both working, but power amp is where its at for sure. That deeper darker sound just melts me. That's why I like fuzz, its deeper for the most part, and that's why I don't particularily like distortion.

 

btw, everything has to do with Fred, how long have you been on this forum Andy, its all about me, all the time <_<

 

 

I definitely agree on the powertube distortion. That's why I have been backing away from hitting and overdriving the pre-amp too hard because I think this is where the finer grain distortion can start to get in the way of the gravel type distortion. I am trying to find the balance in pushing the preamp to drive the powertubes a little harder but not getting to fizzy and obviously playing pretty much on 10.

 

Yes Fred it's all Fred all the time

 

 

I am shooting for getting as close as I can guitar straight into amp first and once I get that as close as possible utilizing other pedals/boosts etc to tweak it....

 

Andy

[stein]

SEARCY:

 

Excellent info. I think one thing that is HUGELY important in a pup is the FIDELITY of what it can reproduce, and with a loss of fidelity, we get a loss of nuance and texture in the signal right from the start. Once detail is lost, it is NOT recovered down the signal chain.

 

I think in the case of certain designs, the designer got it right (or close to it) the first time. And, in many cases (just repeating what you said) there is only so much a design can take before there is losses.

 

I think in the 80's, when we started to get hotter pups, they initially worked in that they may have helped in some cases to support and improve some aspects of a overdriven rig, but I think we wasted about 20 years forgetting about how good a lot of things sounded while they made LOTS of pups that attempted to make up for the shortcomings while keeping the pups hot.

[stein]

I definitely agree on the powertube distortion. That's why I have been backing away from hitting and overdriving the pre-amp too hard because I think this is where the finer grain distortion can start to get in the way of the gravel type distortion. I am trying to find the balance in pushing the preamp to drive the powertubes a little harder but not getting to fizzy and obviously playing pretty much on 10.

 

Yes Fred it's all Fred all the time

 

 

I am shooting for getting as close as I can guitar straight into amp first and once I get that as close as possible utilizing other pedals/boosts etc to tweak it....

 

Andy

I always put that tweaking on the back end of the power tubes, at the speaker. The lower wattage, the less sensitivity, and therefore the less VOLUME the speaker can/will do. At that point, the power-amp has to push harder, and breaks up more at a lower volume.

 

Of corse, for me, playing 20 watt or so combos with only one, maybe 2 speakers is a LOT easier and cheaper to mess with than a Marshall cab.

[Andy R]

I always put that tweaking on the back end of the power tubes, at the speaker. The lower wattage, the less sensitivity, and therefore the less VOLUME the speaker can/will do. At that point, the power-amp has to push harder, and breaks up more at a lower volume.

 

Of corse, for me, playing 20 watt or so combos with only one, maybe 2 speakers is a LOT easier and cheaper to mess with than a Marshall cab.

 

 

Hmmm Where are you getting that the power tubes have to push harder on lower wattage speakers??? I believe the only thing that is going to be driving or pushing your Tubes any more or less is the amount of resistance of the speaker and or the amount of signal your feeding the input of the poweramp section.

 

I believe you will definitely achieve speaker distortion easier that's why I have always used the 25 watt greenbacks.

 

 

Andy

[djroge1]

Interesting topic for sure.

 

Gilmour uses Hiwatt amps I believe.

 

I think Duane hit upon an important factor concerning distortion - back in the day guitars were LOUD and that's partly because most tubes amps (if not all) sound best when pushed. I have a 10watt combo I built that sounds best on 6-7 but where we practice that is too loud. This amp only has 1 vol and 1 tone control so I use pedals to push that single 12ax7 into overdrive. I use a Tim pedal mostly but depending on the song I'll use an overdrive I built or a Marshall Guv'nor.

 

However, on my ceriatone (dumble clone) I also built the c-lator (dumbleator clone) to tame the volume. This device allows me to push the power tubes and push the preamp tubes. For me, it's about getting that right blend between the power tube push/pull and a little bit of preamp drive. The C-lator also smooths out the distortion a pretty good bit. I bet it would sound good with a marshall too...

 

Where one tweeks their sound often depends on the volume level they are allowed to play.

[Andy R]

Interesting topic for sure.

 

Gilmour uses Hiwatt amps I believe.

 

I think Duane hit upon an important factor concerning distortion - back in the day guitars were LOUD and that's partly because most tubes amps (if not all) sound best when pushed. I have a 10watt combo I built that sounds best on 6-7 but where we practice that is too loud. This amp only has 1 vol and 1 tone control so I use pedals to push that single 12ax7 into overdrive. I use a Tim pedal mostly but depending on the song I'll use an overdrive I built or a Marshall Guv'nor.

 

However, on my ceriatone (dumble clone) I also built the c-lator (dumbleator clone) to tame the volume. This device allows me to push the power tubes and push the preamp tubes. For me, it's about getting that right blend between the power tube push/pull and a little bit of preamp drive. The C-lator also smooths out the distortion a pretty good bit. I bet it would sound good with a marshall too...

 

Where one tweeks their sound often depends on the volume level they are allowed to play.

 

That's why I love my JTM-45 I can play it maxed out and it is right at rehearsal level. It's not nearly as lous as my 50 Watt Plexi reissue. I also like the sound of it better than my 100 watt Super Lead with a Weber Mass attenuator.

 

 

Gilmour is a Hiwatt guy for sure but tends to use small amps when he is recording. I forget which song it was but he actually used like a 10 watt Galien Kruger and mic'd it through a PA in some stadium and used that for the album recording....

 

 

Andy

[djroge1]

Jeff Beck will sometimes use small amps like a champ to record as well.

 

when you get a chance check out marinblues demo of the c-lator:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPB4X17p7Oo&feature=related

 

If you want to hear the comparison you'll need to watch the part one video. The C-lator smooths out the grainyness and can add a little chunk.

[stein]

Hmmm Where are you getting that the power tubes have to push harder on lower wattage speakers??? I believe the only thing that is going to be driving or pushing your Tubes any more or less is the amount of resistance of the speaker and or the amount of signal your feeding the input of the poweramp section.

 

I believe you will definitely achieve speaker distortion easier that's why I have always used the 25 watt greenbacks.

 

 

Andy

Limitations of how much a speaker can put out in watts is a lot like the kind of compression a preamp gets with a master volume-once the speaker has reached it's limit, it feeds back to the power tubes.

 

There is 2 things at play: the sensitivity of the speaker and the power handling of the speaker. (power handling as far as what the speaker can accept and produce-not what it can take before you fry it).

 

I forget the specs, but a speaker like a c12n with a sensitivity of about 90 db is going to be about twice as loud as a c12q with about 88db. So, an equal amount of watts will produce more volume in a more sensitive speaker. The opposite effect when you use a less sensitive speaker, you can have the power amp with more gain for the same volume level. That's ONE thing.

 

The other, is that with a speaker with a smaller voice coil and smaller magnet, there will be a limitation to how much it can put out as a whole, and how many watts it will even accept. When it can not accept any more wattage, then the power amp is pushing more with little increase in volume. So, besides the limitations of the circuit that limit the voltage to the power tubes that cause them to break up into overdrive, it can be achieved with a speaker as well.

 

Example: A deluxe Reverb-change the speaker to a c12n (or equivalent) and it can be PLENTY loud enough to overpower a drummer and fill a bar or small club, but also you can get lots of clean headroom, and it will barely overdrive at 10. The same amp with a c12r will break into a mean crunch with the volume control at about half, where the amp would never crunch with a powerful speaker.

 

How I wish I had your Marshalls to mess with. Hell, I wish I had MINE to mess with.

[rocketman]

Wow Andy, I usually come here to help turn my brain off from all the geeky things I do all day, but you certainly got me thinking hard about this one. I really don't have much to contribute and it's an excellent thread. I spent a lot of time trying to decipher SRV's sweet tone and I, like most people, can't do it. Check this out.

 

I think the end sums it all up: "Add it all up, and however massive SRV’s tone — and it undeniably was — this cornucopia of elements and ingredients shows you there’s no clear gear-based magic to the formula. The man played hard and he played well, and a big, big sound came out."

[Andy R]

Limitations of how much a speaker can put out in watts is a lot like the kind of compression a preamp gets with a master volume-once the speaker has reached it's limit, it feeds back to the power tubes.

 

There is 2 things at play: the sensitivity of the speaker and the power handling of the speaker. (power handling as far as what the speaker can accept and produce-not what it can take before you fry it).

 

I forget the specs, but a speaker like a c12n with a sensitivity of about 90 db is going to be about twice as loud as a c12q with about 88db. So, an equal amount of watts will produce more volume in a more sensitive speaker. The opposite effect when you use a less sensitive speaker, you can have the power amp with more gain for the same volume level. That's ONE thing.

 

The other, is that with a speaker with a smaller voice coil and smaller magnet, there will be a limitation to how much it can put out as a whole, and how many watts it will even accept. When it can not accept any more wattage, then the power amp is pushing more with little increase in volume. So, besides the limitations of the circuit that limit the voltage to the power tubes that cause them to break up into overdrive, it can be achieved with a speaker as well.

 

Example: A deluxe Reverb-change the speaker to a c12n (or equivalent) and it can be PLENTY loud enough to overpower a drummer and fill a bar or small club, but also you can get lots of clean headroom, and it will barely overdrive at 10. The same amp with a c12r will break into a mean crunch with the volume control at about half, where the amp would never crunch with a powerful speaker.

 

How I wish I had your Marshalls to mess with. Hell, I wish I had MINE to mess with.

 

Hmmmm I will have to chew on that for a while.....

[Searcy]

SEARCY:

 

I think one thing that is HUGELY important in a pup is the FIDELITY of what it can reproduce, and with a loss of fidelity, we get a loss of nuance and texture in the signal right from the start. Once detail is lost, it is NOT recovered down the signal chain.

 

 

I agree. Andy mentioned the desire to be able to play full chords with good note definition. Super hot pickups make this about impossable. But true Hi Fidelity pickups arn't somthing most guitar players are interested in. If they were they would all be playing Les Paul Recording modles and they would never play humbuckers. Truth is, they actually like all the mud and color.

 

I like to see to it that a pickup can make plenty of highs. You can always cut highs but you can never put them back in if they wern't there to start with. I think that sort of the same thing you were saying.

[DiamondJig]

So many things to play with an amp

 

Preamp tubes being over driven, play with different gain tubes, another way to get power tubes to work harder use lower gain pre amp tubes

Power tubes being over driven, some tube will break before other, some places will measure them and rate them.

The Power amp Class A or A/B they have different harmonic structures

The type and make of the tubes use in pre and power, some amp will let you swap between EL34 and 6L6

How HOT the power tubes are Biased, get them cook'n but they don't last

Speaker size and sensitivity, open back or closed

The AC voltage used to power the amp, drop it with a VARIC (brown sound)

 

How to drive the amp, GUITAR, pickup, pedal, strings, pick, the mood your in they all make a difference.

 

Then you have solid state amp and the way the clip

 

I have 2 of the same amp heads plugged into 2 the same speakers. The heads are loaded with the same tubes, one head sounds sweeter then the other I swapped tubes and speakers between them and that one head still sounds sweeter, something is go'n on inside this one that is magic. Just say'n some times you get lucky.

[stein]

I agree. Andy mentioned that desire to be able to play full chords with good not definition. Super hot pickups make this about impossable. But true Hi Fidelity pickups arn't soundting most guitar players are interested in. If they were they would all be playing Les Paul Recording modles and they would never play humbuckers. Truth is, they actually like all the mud and color.

 

I like to see to it that a pickup can make plenty of highs. You can always cut highs but you can never put them back in if they wern't there to start with. I think that sort of the same thing you were saying.

That actually explains it better. You can PUT highs BACK in with the active stages of a preamp with the EQ section, but when you loose something and then put it back, you loose a lot of detail, or information from the original source.

 

More soon..

[stein]

More...

 

There are two ways to look at fidelity: how much does it add or color the signal from what it was to start, OR how much does it NOT capture and reproduce from what it was from the start.

 

Take a microphone that sounds bright. Is it ADDING highs? or is it SUBTRACTING lows? OR.... perhaps it is capturing ALL of it, but is SHIFTING the frequencies.

 

Regarding the "fidelity" of a pickup: most of our favorite designs DO add a lot of color and harmonics, but a lot of this is because of the added magnetic field, and a lot of it is because there is actually a lot of color to begin with. In a lot of ways, a typical pickup will pick up the harmonics that we can barely hear and amplify them more to a level we CAN hear better.

 

So, what is more accurate? a microphone? a low impedence pickup? I really don't think in the end it is. With a microphone, there are more parts to deal with that have the potential to loose information. Same with a battery and a pre-amp in a low impedence design. A typical "passive" pup is actually the SAME as a mic with fewer parts, specifically a magnet and a coil. The heart of all things audio. WAY less potential to loose information.

 

The trick, of corse, is in the manipulation of the design to preserve information, or manipulate it. As guitarist, we don't have issues with "distorting" the signal or altering it, but we as a whole seem to pay little attention to how much of the signal we preserve.

[AlanH]

Check this out.

 

I think the end sums it all up: "Add it all up, and however massive SRV’s tone — and it undeniably was — this cornucopia of elements and ingredients shows you there’s no clear gear-based magic to the formula. The man played hard and he played well, and a big, big sound came out."

 

 

I think this quote from your article above sums it up even better:

 

"There are plenty of reports of Vaughan being invited up on stage with other players and using their guitar and single amp, and ripping it up — and sounding just like SRV in the process."

 

Alan

[milod]

Since I was brought up in the pre-Brit rock era in the U.S., here are a couple comments on what I think I've seen happening...

 

We went from relatively clean in the early days - listen to the guitar lead on Bill Haley's Rock Around the Clock - to heavy use of reverb and trem along with an intentionally-damaged speaker on Link Wray's "Rumble." The electric guitar was new and "we" were looking at ways to use it. You've gotta figure both rock and the use of electric guitar were just developing in the 1950s with some amps slowly developing power.

 

If we had overdrive it largely was because we tended to get the biggest amps we could find or afford, and play them about as loudly as they'd run so we could fill a dance hall, auditorium or outdoor venue.

 

Given that all we had were tube amps, overdrive was impossible not to bring into the equation whether we actually wanted it or not. So "we" got used to that type of sound.

 

But when I first heard a fuzz box effect, it seemed to me an attempt to duplicate the sound of what was called at the time a "dirty" sax or trumpet player.

 

My bottom line isn't whether one wants "fuzz," overdrive or whatever, it's that whatever the band does, it should be set up so that the audience hears what the band thinks they're doing instead of just a muddy roar that too often results from what bands try ineffectively to do.

 

m

[brundaddy]

I like 2 kinds of breakup when I'm playing: when the clean juuuust breaks up, and when the fuzz/OD/distortion/saturation breaks up. Concerning the latter, I enjoy experimenting and listening to various degrees of breakup and crackle, both roundwave and squarewave.

 

"My bottom line isn't whether one wants "fuzz," overdrive or whatever, it's that whatever the band does, it should be set up so that the audience hears what the band thinks they're doing instead of just a muddy roar that too often results from what bands try ineffectively to do."

 

I couldn't agree more. Lots of bands crank it with the mentality of "dude I want to be in my amp's sweet spot" and the result is a wall of noise. And not in an interesting "Sonic Youth" or "Grinderman" noise-style kind of way.

[Andy R]

I think this quote from your article above sums it up even better:

 

"There are plenty of reports of Vaughan being invited up on stage with other players and using their guitar and single amp, and ripping it up — and sounding just like SRV in the process."

 

Alan

 

Yes Alan your contribution is duly noted and appreciated.

 

Thanks for clearing this up for me. After 25 years of playing, working for multiple guitar manufactures, building guitars, amps and effects etc..., you would have thought I would have figured this out on my own. I wasn't really interested in learning anymore or having a discussion with anyone else that is interested in the topic about pick ups and and amplifiers or anything.

 

Everyone can quit contributing now and we can lock this thread up. Alan has answered it all.

[AlanH]

Yes Alan your contribution is duly noted and appreciated.

 

Thanks for clearing this up for me. After 25 years of playing, working for multiple guitar manufactures, building guitars, amps and effects etc..., you would have thought I would have figured this out on my own. I wasn't really interested in learning anymore or having a discussion with anyone else that is interested in the topic about pick ups and and amplifiers or anything.

 

Everyone can quit contributing now and we can lock this thread up. Alan has answered it all.

 

My fault, Andy. I appreciate that the focus of the thread was on tone tweaking with gear. I guess I wasn't letting go because you were being somewhat sarcastic. I'll avoid biting back in the future.

 

No hard feelings from my perspective.

 

Alan