Epi Elitist Riviera 12

[instantkarma]

Been gassing for an electric 12 since I sold my CIJ Fender a couple years ago. The Fender was pretty, great quality, but with a narrow neck for a 12, and not the tone I was searching for. I just found an Elitist Riviera 12, and could not be happier with it. Amazing tone machine, perfect McGuinn-Harrison-Petty-Buck, and a surprising variety of sounds depending on pickup, tone, and volume selection. I should have not been surprised that the mini-humbuckers would sound so good, as they are fantastic on the Sheraton. The neck is perfect, with action as low as any 6-string, no buzz, and plays as fast. The build quality is as good or better than recent Gibsons. This one is a beautiful vintage cherry, much deeper than the Epi website photo, where it looks red; transparent to show off the maple grain, with perfectly yellowed binding. Curious if anyone knows the OEM brand and gauge of strings, and any recommendation to switch to flatwounds?

 

[The_Buffalo]

Don't have an Elitist, but it;s hard to imagine how they could have improved this one. I do use flat wond strings on my ES 175 re-issue, but not on this.

[vomer]

Instantkarma, congratulations, it sounds gorgeous. Can you post a pic using the 'insert image' function on the menu bar? When I click your link I get an error message:

 

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Sorry, an error occurred. If you are unsure on how to use a feature, or don't know why you got this error message, try looking through the help files for more information.

 

 

[#10171] You do not have permission to view this attachment.

[Dennis G]

That is sweeeeeet!

[The_Buffalo]

I always string mine with light gauge (10 - 46) strings. (And make sure they're for electric 12).

[clarkuss]

The lighter the better on 12s for that jangle. Lovely guitar and epsecially lucky to find an elitist. Enjoy!

 

I personally would restring any electric 12 to Rickenbacker style as the traditional style annoys me on electrics for some reason...

[blues335]

What would be the going rate for one of those Riviera Elitist 12's ??????

 

Anyone got any other information on them....?????

 

Oh yes GAS........

 

EDIT: just been looking on the net and apparently the Elitist 12's were made in Japan at the Terada factory...............do you think I could get one for around £500?????

[LongMan]

 

Congrats on that nice guitar! I've been looking for one since years, but it's close to impossible to get one here. Enjoy it, both the gorgeous look and the playing!

[RaSTuS]

Wonderful find IK, just a beautiful guitar, glad to hear you like it so much,enjoy, HNGD.

[instantkarma]

Thank you everyone for all your kind comments. Been playing her all weekend--I've got blisters on my fingers! Really amazed with this 12, and recommend to anyone thinking of getting a Ric, as the neck is comfortably wider, and those mini-humbuckers, mmmm tasty. This is pro-grade all around--tone, build, action, electronics, paintwork, balance. I found a set of Ric strings that should do the trick, thanks for the suggestions.

[tweed2]

What would be the going rate for one of those Riviera Elitist 12's ??????

 

Anyone got any other information on them....?????

 

Oh yes GAS........

Well. since somebody else asked, what are these going for? I'm having trouble finding pricing. And, has anyone ever seen one in natural?

[bobouz]

Well. since somebody else asked, what are these going for? I'm having trouble finding pricing. And, has anyone ever seen one in natural?

In the 2004 catalog, both the 6 & 12 string versions of the Elitist Riviera are listed as being available in either vintage sunburst or black. A neat guitar, for sure!

[jonny_2_owls]

I love the epi riviera 12 strings! I had a mid 90's Korean model in cherry, it had full sized humbuckers and sounded massive!!

 

I really wish they'd re-issue these guitars! Every now and then an original pops up on eBay and they seem to be very reasonably priced. There's a 60's one on there now, buy it now £1795 pounds, if only I had the cash!!

[tweed2]

Well, I guess that VS would have to do (he he). Now, how do I justify having two electric 12 strings? J2O, I agree, let's bring them back.

[instantkarma]

The only Elitist model made now is the Casino, and I expect it will be phased out before too long, as they are too much competition for USA Gibsons. I have only seen the 12 in cherry (rare) and sunburst. This one is from 2004, and looks like it just came from the Terada factory, got very lucky. I did see a sunburst 12 posted on the Bay recently, stamped USED on the headstock, and that affects price, although perhaps not the actual quality. I believe they wanted a kilobuck for it.

[LongMan]

The only Elitist model made now is the Casino, and I expect it will be phased out before too long, as they are too much competition for USA Gibsons.

The Epiphone and Gibson product lines changed a lot in the last years. When Elite/Elitist guitars were sold some years ago, they filled a gap between the Epiphone budget line, and the Gibson premium priced line. Lets take the Les Paul as an example:

In the 2003 catalogue of one of the biggest guitar sellers in Germany the Epiphone Les Paul Standard sold for 499,- €, the Epiphone Elite Les Paul Standard sold for 1444,- € (1666,- € for the Standard Plus Top), and the Gibson Les Paul Standard sold for 2699,- €. So buying the Epiphone Elite saved you more than a grand compared to the Gibson, at comparable quality standard. Or put another way, the Elite Les Paul Standard was nearly half the price tag of the Gibson.

 

Now Gibson has extended their line of guitars to the budget end, and Epiphone extended their line to the top end (e.g. the Les Paul Tribute models, the "Inspired By" Casinos). In Germany the Gibson Les Paul line starts at app. 650,- Euros for a Les Paul Studio 50s/60s Tribute. This is exactly where the Epiphone line ends with the Les Paul Tribute models. The entry Gibson ES-335 sells for app. the same price tag as the Elite ES-335 did 8 years ago.

 

Additionally the entire price level has dropped significantly over the years. Today the Epiphone Les Paul Standard sells for 349,- €, the Gibson Les Paul Standard Traditional sells for 1699,- € (which is app. the price tag of the Elite Les Paul Plus Top). For the price tag of the 2002 regular production Les Paul you get a Gibson custom shop Les Paul today (e.g. the 1958 V.O.S Standard sells for 2799,- €). The only exception is the Casino: This one currently sells for 1100-1300,- € (*if* available), while the Gibson ES-330 sells for 2300-2600.- € (if you are lucky to find one at all, they are making them only in homeopathic numbers it seems). So there's still a good reason for offering the Elitist Casino (and they do still sell, as soon as some are available they are sold out the next few days).

 

So there's simply no more need for the Elite/Elitist line in terms of filling the price gap between Epiphone and Gibson lines. But what I really miss are the original Epiphone models in top quality. I got me a Riviera limited edition from chinese production, sells for 398,- €. For this price tag this is an excellent value without doubt. However the Elitist Riviera from japanese production is a completely different beast, it catches up with any Gibson guitar in terms of quality and sound. I wish they would re-introduce at least the original Epiphone guitars like Riviera 6 and 12, Sheraton, Broadway etc. as Elitist models. Of course the price tag wouldn't be that far away from the regular Gibson line, but who says an excellent guitar has to be cheap? For me I can say I am willing to pay an adequate price for e.g. a new Elitist Riviera 12.

[instantkarma]

Thanks longman for your insight on marketing at G vis-a-vis Epi. At the risk of taking this thread sideways--how would you compare Tribute quality and value to the Elitists? How much of the lower Euro price level you mention accrues to the decline in the value of the dollar over the past decade? Are there plans to produce Tribute hollow bodies? That's a trick of course, and why Terada built such a good rep for several brands.

[LongMan]

Thanks longman for your insight on marketing at G vis-a-vis Epi. At the risk of taking this thread sideways--how would you compare Tribute quality and value to the Elitists?

 

I guess the Les Paul Tribute models are upgraded Epiphone standard models. They added some nice veneers, and some parts of premium hardware, e.g. the Gibson pickups, and added a case. The value of the Tribute Les Paul is pretty high in my opinion, this is a serious instrument from what I have seen. Regarding the Elite/Elitist models I can only speak for the two I have (Elite Les Paul Standard Plus and Elite '63 ES-335). The Les Paul Elite is on par with any Gibson as far as I can say from my experience with a couple of Gibson Les Pauls. They used solid african mahogany, a 1-piece mahogany neck (the chinese necks most times consist of 3 pieces with glued on head stock). The headstock angle has the original 17°, the top is of solid flame maple. The hardware is premium throughout the guitar, just the same parts you expect to find on a Gibson. The Elite Les Paul (and also the ES-335) are more or less "real" Gibsons manufactured in Japan, with another headstock shape and another brand on it. This guitars were (and still are) expensive for good reasons.

 

How much of the lower Euro price level you mention accrues to the decline in the value of the dollar over the past decade?

 

Maybe 10%, if at all. I guess the decline in the price level results from the flood of cheap copies coming from China, and other asian countries. If you get a cheap but usable no name ES-335 copy for 200,- €, how would you justify 400,- € for an Epiphone Dot (or 460,- € for the Dot Deluxe)? So now they sell for 300,- € (and 330,- for the Deluxe). The Sheraton went down from 630,- to 500,- €. The people are still willing to pay an extra charge for the Epiphone brand (after all Epi still has the reputation of making "authorized" copies of famous Gibson models), but they are not willing to pay twice as much as for a no name guitar.

 

Are there plans to produce Tribute hollow bodies? That's a trick of course, and why Terada built such a good rep for several brands.

 

I don't know, I have no insight in their plans. I just tried to show how the product lines and price tags changed over the last years, and why the Elitist line is most likely no longer of any interest for Epiphone. So far they did the 1959/1960 Les Paul, the "Inspired by J.L." Casinos and the 1961 Casino. Maybe there are other models in the pipeline. But it seems the focus currently is on offering budget models of the Gibson lineup with equal named models: The ES-355 is announced, recently the ES-339 showed up. On the other hand Gibson also came up with some entry level semi hollow bodies recently. So I have the impression both companies are concentrating on the mid price range currently (mid price range I would call app. 400-1500 €). The low budget level is flooded by no name stuff, and not much people can afford premium level guitars nowadays.

 

In the meantime the japanese factories came up with own lines of Gibson copies, e.g. FGN (Fujigen Guitars, the same plant that manufactured the Elite Les Pauls). Their Les Paul and ES-335 copies are said to be very good, and they are cheaper than the Elitist models were. The headstock of the FGN Les Paul reminds me of the Elite headstock. The FGN 1958 plain top honey burst Les Paul e.g. sells for 1100,- €.

[clarkuss]

Why get rid of the Elitist Casino when the market is split between modern and 60s spec Casinos? I'm not saying they'll be around forever but Gibson obviously know that people want Epiphone Casinos more than they want Gibson ES-330s. You can no longer buy a new 1965 USA Casino so why would they cut the elitist out of the equation when it's one of the most desirable Epiphones on the market?