MORE interesting reading about the Gibson Raids

[vourot]

Came across this on another forum. My apologies if this has been posted before. At least it dispells the " SWAT " team BS.

Of special interest is the link " Read the letter sent to Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman Fred Upton "

 

 

http://www.fws.gov/news/blog/index.cfm/2011/9/22/Where-We-Stand-The-Lacey-Act-and-our-Law-Enforcement-Work#more

[Tman5293]

Interesting....................................I'm still waiting to see if charges will be filed, and if so, what case/evidence does the government have of any wrong doing by Gibson. Could turn out to be a very strange turn of events. I really hope Gibson pulls through this.

[j-dub]

Came across this on another forum. My apologies if this has been posted before. At least it dispells the " SWAT " team BS.

Of special interest is the link " Read the letter sent to Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman Fred Upton "

 

 

http://www.fws.gov/news/blog/index.cfm/2011/9/22/Where-We-Stand-The-Lacey-Act-and-our-Law-Enforcement-Work#more

 

are you saying this article says there was no swat team, or are you saying the swat team was BS??

 

i found nothing referencing anything about SWAT teams in this. maybe i'm tired, but i don't get it.

[Tman5293]

are you saying this article says there was no swat team, or are you saying the swat team was BS??

 

i found nothing referencing anything about SWAT teams in this. maybe i'm tired, but i don't get it.

 

If you go to the page and scroll to the bottom there is a link that says, "Read the letter sent to Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman Fred Upton." It will open up the pdf file which has a statement from the FWS. It talks about the armed agents and the lack of SWAT teams on the second page in the last two sentences of the fourth paragraph down.

[j-dub]

If you go to the page and scroll to the bottom there is a link that says, "Read the letter sent to Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman Fred Upton." It will open up the pdf file which has a statement from the FWS. It talks about the armed agents and the lack of SWAT teams on the second page in the last two sentences of the fourth paragraph down.

 

hmmmm. well of course, they did nothing wrong at all. and we believe THEM right? :blink:

 

on the video below, skip to the 4:50 mark and listen the man, i believe his version over some pen pushing half wit in dc.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GDc3rteCwM&feature=related

[zigzag]

I guess I should not be surprised about the wierd way that Henry J. has been perceived by members of this forum. A year ago, Henry J. was a rogue dog; according to members on this board he made really bad business decisions, he introduced gimmicky guitars that didn't address the needs and desires of musicians, his company's QC was terrible, he didn't treat his employees fairly, he over-charged for his guitars, he put ridiculous demands on his distributors, and on and on...

 

Now that the government has found violations that Gibson has allegedly been involved in, Henry is now a saintly, Kafka-esque, victim. He has tried this case in every media source who will allow him a voice, and this event has become a political football. Henry has capitalized on the political extremism that is ripping this country apart, and all of the anti-government extemists have jumped on his bandwagon.

 

I am willing to wait until all this plays out, but from where I sit, I don't trust Henry. I think he "doth protest too much."

[Searcy]

And from where I sit people seem way to willing to trust a government that has proven itself to be untrustworthy. Until someone can tell me why LMI has not been raided or charged with criminal doings I say there's something personal going on here. Until the government can be bothered to press charges or arrest someone in this case people are going to continue to speculate. Allowing the government to seize property and hold it for years on end, implying criminal doings but not filing charges is something the American people should not tolerate.

 

Personal feelings about Henry J. Should be irrelevant. But the fact that he's waited more than 2 years to start protesting shows me that he has been to more than patient.

[zigzag]

Agreed, personal feelings should be irrelevant. But again, all we really know is what we've heard from Henry. What little we've heard from the government seems to suggest that they may have a good case and contradicts what Henry has said. If the raid on Gibson was performed by officers with holstered weapons, and not by a SWAT team with assault weapons drawn and pointed, that makes Henry a lot less than truthful.

[pippy]

...What little we've heard from the government seems to suggest that they may have a good case...

All I'm going to say on this matter is that if they already have a good case why is it taking them so long to file charges? Could it be that they are amassing more evidence to make their case even stronger?

 

 

P.

[zigzag]

Could be. No doubt, the government's behavior has not helped their case.

[BigKahune]

Came across this on another forum. My apologies if this has been posted before. At least it dispells the " SWAT " team BS.

Of special interest is the link " Read the letter sent to Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman Fred Upton " ....

 

Both the article and the letter focus on "the Lacey Act in 2008 aimed in part to reduce illegal logging around the world, help the U.S. and other nations manage their own natural resources responsibly, and protect U.S. timber producers from the importation of illegally harvested and smuggled foreign logs." . . While the first raid was over allegedly illegally harvested ebony and therefore understandable, the second raid was over LEGALLY harvested rosewood that was shipped in blanks allegedly larger than allowed under the law in India. I find the second ARMED raid was totally unwarranted and the suspicions of the FnW could've been investigated by simply examining the documents and confiscating the rosewood blanks in question.

[zigzag]

While the first raid was over allegedly illegally harvested ebony and therefore understandable, the second raid was over LEGALLY harvested rosewood that was shipped in blanks allegedly larger than allowed under the law in India.

 

According to the affidavit submitted by the FAWL officer, it was suspected that wood for fingerboards was improperly identified as wood for other uses. Gibson was suspected of being involved in that mis-identification and computers were collected to try to find documentation to support that claim and if this was a chronic illegal practice by Gibson. This is totally different than the accusations Henry J. has made public. Henry says that the issue is the degree of finishing of the fingerboards. The government is apparently saying, in the latest raid, that the degree of finishing has nothing to do with this case.

 

Who do you believe?

[milod]

1. There's an admission that armed law enforcement officers were involved.

 

2. There's an admission that basically the mode of the raid turned the factories on their heads while wood and computers - both vital in doing business for a guitar company - were taken.

 

3. The accusation is about wood illegally purchased and imported, but no accusation that Gibson was aware of any illegality.

 

4. Yes, a judge allowed a warrant. All that's needed is the basis of a "probable cause" and a federal agency can get one.

 

Bottom line is that the targeting of Gibson, not the importer, is still questionable.

 

Note also that the letter claims the individual musician and/or purchaser of an instrument is not targeted, yet the impression given of the law is that they could be. Experience with art and ivory in similar law leads me to believe that they could easily be next.

 

Politics? IMHO probably not directly, but really, doesn't the fact of unionized firms not being targeted while the non-union firm is targeted strike a chord?

 

Yeah, HenryJ may be putting some of his own spin on this, but what would you do if you had a successful and growing company suddenly under attack by federal officials, including in ways that costs well over $1 million even if you're found innocent of any wrongdoing?

 

m

[zigzag]

1. There's an admission that armed law enforcement officers were involved.

2. There's an admission that basically the mode of the raid turned the factories on their heads while wood and computers - both vital in doing business for a guitar company - were taken.

3. The accusation is about wood illegally purchased and imported, but no accusation that Gibson was aware of any illegality.

4. Yes, a judge allowed a warrant. All that's needed is the basis of a "probable cause" and a federal agency can get one.

 

Bottom line is that the targeting of Gibson, not the importer, is still questionable.

 

Note also that the letter claims the individual musician and/or purchaser of an instrument is not targeted, yet the impression given of the law is that they could be. Experience with art and ivory in similar law leads me to believe that they could easily be next.

 

Politics? IMHO probably not directly, but really, doesn't the fact of unionized firms not being targeted while the non-union firm is targeted strike a chord?

 

Yeah, HenryJ may be putting some of his own spin on this, but what would you do if you had a successful and growing company suddenly under attack by federal officials, including in ways that costs well over $1 million even if you're found innocent of any wrongdoing?

 

m

 

1) Yes, law enforcemnt officers are usually armed.

2) Yes

3) It seems that the government would have to assume that Gibson was aware of the illegality, and that is why Gibson was targeted.

4) Yes

 

It could be that the targeting of a non-union shop has nothing to do with this case. That would suggest that there is a political conspiracy, and I don't buy it. And yes, if I was Henry J., I'd be doing the same thing.

[BigKahune]

According to the affidavit submitted by the FAWL officer, it was suspected that wood for fingerboards was improperly identified as wood for other uses. ....

 

I read it differently - it's about the export law in India and the thickness of rosewood fretboard blanks. Also, the paperwork indicates LMI is the importer, not Gibson. But don't take my word for it - here's an an interview on SoundCheck about the subject with John Thomas, a professor at Quinnipiac University School of Law, well known in the acoustic community and a forum member (also interviewed by the WSJ on the this subject). . . Here's another interview on the subject with John at the Fretboard Journal - podcast of interview . (check it at 13:30) . . .

 

Here's one of John's posts on the Acoustic forum - http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/73852-guitars-and-politics/page__view__findpost__p__1004313

[milod]

Ziggy...

 

I don't think that the fact that a non-union shop is targeted is necessarily evidence of a "conspiracy." You don't need a conspiracy for that at all - just an agent or agency that might feel a disgruntled employee is treated unfairly from a pro-union mind set. Or... add to that how questions over paperwork could balloon into what we've seen.

 

In ways, though, although technically we may not be talking "swat team," if a dozen or more armed officers in black uniforms came whipping through where any of us work, turned workers onto the street, disconnected and hauled away computers and manufacturing stock... how would you feel and what would you think of it?

 

Again... why hasn't anything been done with reference to the original raid, either in prosecuting or in returning confiscated woods? What of the importer, whether or not Gibson cherrypicked various stocks of otherwise apparently legally produced and imported woods and whether or not the paperwork was exactly what a bureaucrat might consider appropriate?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not per se defending Gibson and yes, a lotta anti-Gibson comments have been on various forums paid for by ... Gibson. But I'm also trying to see both sides.

 

If you haven't been around heavy law enforcement presence with a "we're going to prove the case we convinced the judge to issue a warrant for" attitude... I dunno. I've also seen instances where the prosecutor was convinced there was a crime and the law officers were not. And vice versa. That's "politics," but not at all necessarily "national party politics," but institutional.

 

Again, the cultural background of both LE and prosecutors has a lot to do with how one might see prosecution whether or not one with a somewhat different cultural background might agree. There are a number of high profile cases over the past 20-30 years to prove exactly that if one takes polls even after a conviction or "not guilty" verdict.

 

The fretboard journal piece is interesting, too. So also is the fact that rather than pulling a file copy from the corporate computers, the computers themselves and therefor business operations, were taken. And yes, LE can justify a lot of stuff if they want to and if they're encouraged to do so by a prosecutor. A probable cause is not that difficult to write to draw a warrant, either.

 

m

[j-dub]

And from where I sit people seem way to willing to trust a government that has proven itself to be untrustworthy. Until someone can tell me why LMI has not been raided or charged with criminal doings I say there's something personal going on here. Until the government can be bothered to press charges or arrest someone in this case people are going to continue to speculate. Allowing the government to seize property and hold it for years on end, implying criminal doings but not filing charges is something the American people should not tolerate.

 

Personal feelings about Henry J. Should be irrelevant. But the fact that he's waited more than 2 years to start protesting shows me that he has been to more than patient.

 

the onus is on the government to provide proof. in this case, they can't put the sh@t back up the horses arse, so they definitely will dissect every single piece of property they seized.

rights were violated blatantly in this case, over perceived discrepancies of stock material, which is so scary that fully armed tac units shut the place down, yeah, that sounds American.

IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS FOLKS, THEY'LL SOON DISAPPEAR!!

 

i support Gibson 100%, because it is the right thing to do.

[matiac]

Why are they singling out Gibson? Are they the only guitar company in "America" that makes guitars out of wood? I've seen Ibanez guitars with ebony fretboards. How about Fender? Taylor? Guild? what about all these other companies?

[Searcy]

Just to add a little something to the debate.

 

The right leaning Gibson is not the only company to suffer "swat team like" raids. Another example would be a raw food health food co-op style store in Venice Beach CA called Rawsome that is about as left leaning as you can get. This store was raided by armed cops in the name of the FDA. The crime is that they may have sold unpasteurized milk to a non-member.

 

I find both cases deeply disturbing regardless of the political leaning of the company owners and I wish more people were pissed off about this sort of thing. But they seem more worrying about picking sides in the Chaz Bono nontroversy than guarding their rights.

 

 

The Story

 

And yes... that's reel footage from the raid on the store. Guns drawn.... over hippies selling milk...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b27EFldZ17k&feature=player_embedded#!

[zigzag]

Unpasteurized goat's milk out of the back of a van?... SWAT team?...

 

Life is truly stranger than fiction.

 

Nice find Searcy.

[stein]

I guess I should not be surprised about the wierd way that Henry J. has been perceived by members of this forum. A year ago, Henry J. was a rogue dog; according to members on this board he made really bad business decisions, he introduced gimmicky guitars that didn't address the needs and desires of musicians, his company's QC was terrible, he didn't treat his employees fairly, he over-charged for his guitars, he put ridiculous demands on his distributors, and on and on...

 

Now that the government has found violations that Gibson has allegedly been involved in, Henry is now a saintly, Kafka-esque, victim. He has tried this case in every media source who will allow him a voice, and this event has become a political football. Henry has capitalized on the political extremism that is ripping this country apart, and all of the anti-government extemists have jumped on his bandwagon.

 

I am willing to wait until all this plays out, but from where I sit, I don't trust Henry. I think he "doth protest too much."

I see your point about bad Henry/good Henry. There may be truth in that perspective.

 

But I think it means we have to keep the perspective that it isn't about Henry, it is about you and me and the people within the government. Henry could be an A-hole, but do we want the government having different policies based on what THEY perceive?

 

I think it is a matter of rights, and the same rights should apply to everyone. It is not about Henry being a good guy or a bad guy, but rather a case that questions if rights have been violated. And, a question of what rights the government has and should have above and beyond the rights of citizens and businesses.

 

Regardless of any opinion I personally have of Henry, what he is protesting and bringing to the media is something I agree with. When the government goes too far, how does it go from there? There IS ample evidence that the government has, and as a citizen, I am less concerned with the accountability of Henry to me, but rather the government being accountable to me.

 

Lets see how THAT plays out as well.

[Jeff-7]

Agreed, personal feelings should be irrelevant. But again, all we really know is what we've heard from Henry. What little we've heard from the government seems to suggest that they may have a good case and contradicts what Henry has said. If the raid on Gibson was performed by officers with holstered weapons, and not by a SWAT team with assault weapons drawn and pointed, that makes Henry a lot less than truthful.

Footage I saw was overweight USFWS officers with assault rifles shouldered entering the building.

[zigzag]

Excellent point, Stein. But one of the issues raised in the OP was to point out the differences in the way the raid was supposed to have gone down. Henry's story differs from the government's, and my point is- how credible is Henry? No one seems to be questioning the bad judgment of enforcement agents, just how aggressively the raid was actually carried out.

 

Since we are all speculating, our points-of-view seem to be tainted by the way we perceive business, the government, regulation, and enforcement.

[zigzag]

Footage I saw was overweight USFWS officers with assault rifles shouldered entering the building.

You saw actual footage of the raid? When you say "shouldered" do you mean strapped to their shoulders or do you mean in preparation to be fired?

[Jeff-7]

You saw actual footage of the raid? When you say "shouldered" do you mean strapped to their shoulders or do you mean in preparation to be fired?

Yes the day the raid occurred someone here posted a link to a TN news organization that was on the premises, the butt of the gun was directly on his shoulder with the muzzle pointing down as he prepared to enter one of the entrances.